Talk:Fritz Witt

Pic

any reasonable photo here? Sorry, but someone with his face down on a table ist not very much representative about his identification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.98.124 (talk) 00:02, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Copyedits and inline citations

Hi, I've been working on copyediting this article, and would like to proceed with the removal of some of the material not supported by inline citations. These mostly refer to the performance of Witt's unit and that of Witt personally, such as:

• Witt's battalion had inflicted many casualties and captured over 520 prisoners for the loss of only 37 dead and 95 wounded.
• Despite the fact that Witt's unit had no anti-tank weapons, Witt rallied his battalion and they held, destroying nine of the British tanks with grenades and other improvised methods.
• Although severely outnumbered, the two units halted the spearhead of Mobile Group Popov, inflicting heavy losses on the Soviets.
• Despite this, they held and Kampfgruppe Peiper under Joachim Peiper reached them and together the three Leibstandarte units annihilated the Soviet defenders.
• On 7 June, 25th SS Panzergrenadier Regiment, along with the 2nd Battalion from 12th SS Panzer Regiment, attacked the advancing 3rd Canadian Infantry Division, destroying 28 Canadian tanks and annihilating a company of The North Nova Scotia Highlanders. Records from the 27th Canadian armored regiment suggest that at least 31 German tanks were destroyed, mainly Panzer IV's.
• Over the next week, Witt's division managed to hold the line above Caen despite incessant determined attacks and constant air, artillery and naval bombardments. The HJ inflicted devastating losses on the British and Canadian forces, the training which Witt had developed maintaining his unit's morale and fighting ability.

The above does not convey the tone of being encyclopedic. Further, some of these explanations are not necessary - Witt's awards speak for themselves. For example, some can be reworded as follows:

Original:

Soviet counterattacks during the winter caused the Germans to fall back to defensive lines on the river Mius. Witt's battalion was engaged in several rearguard actions. Through the winter battles, Witt led from the front, maintaining unit morale and showing care for his men. On 8 February 1942, Witt was awarded the German Cross in Gold for his bravery during the Rostov battles.

Suggested:

Soviet counterattacks during the winter caused the Germans to fall back to defensive lines on the river Mius, where Witt's battalion was engaged in rearguard actions. On 8 February 1942, Witt was awarded the German Cross in Gold for his bravery during the Rostov battles.

This is more concise and conveys a more encyclopedic tone.

If the citations to reliable sources can be provided, please do so. I see that the citation improvement tag is dated 2009, so perhaps the easiest way to deal with this is to remove unsupported material, and then re-add the content that can be supported by citations as they become available? Thoughts? K.e.coffman (talk) 19:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

PS - @Beyond My Ken: and @Kierzek: - since you guys were involved with this article and / or Waffen-SS content in general, would you mind commenting here? K.e.coffman (talk) 19:59, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, all that "leading from the front" and "rallying his men" stuff has to go. This is yet another example of the attempts to glorify members of the Waffen-SS that I've been finding throughout many of these articles. BMK (talk) 20:11, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I had to hunt to see where I ever edited on this article; apparently, I did two minor ones back in 2012. Anyway, certainly the "tone" of the article should be improved and conform to NPOV; and all "claims" can be challenged and removed if unsupported material. Content can be re-add with RS citations. @MisterBee1966: may be able to help with the introduction of good cited text. Kierzek (talk) 23:53, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

@Kierzek: -- Sorry, I did not mean to suggest that you authored the article or were heavily involved in it. I wanted to hear from you since I value your inputs and guidance, and you also (sort of) suggested I look into some of the WWII content that may need copy-editing work. Good idea to hear from MisterBee. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:24, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

No problem. Kierzek (talk) 00:27, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I have to go check and see what references I have on stock. I will put this into my editing queue. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:03, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I have started structuring the sources, until I have a better understanding, I want to refrain on passing judgment on their quality. MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:55, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

@MisterBee1966: I would like to start removing some of the unsourced material, unless you'd like to work on the article first. Please let me know. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:43, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Sure go ahead if you believe it adds value MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:00, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Question about External links

• Knight's Cross Holders Database (German language)
• Axis History Factbook
• Feldgrau – The History of the German Armed Forces in WWII
• Axis Biographical Research at the Wayback Machine (archived October 27, 2009)

Are these legitimate research projects, or are they more of a community effort? Wondering whether or not they belong in the External links section. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:48, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Unsourced content

I tagged the article with "refiprove" and removed the dubious, POV content back in Nov-Dec '15, but I've not see other editors participate in improving the content. Per WP:V, I don't see other option except to comment out the uncited sections:

• Pre-war SS service
• World War II

Please let me know if there are any concerns, or someone would like to provide citations. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:04, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Preserving here by providing this link. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:09, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Further reading

I would also like to clean up section "Further reading"; here's my rationale:

• Krätschmer, Ernst-Günther (1999). Die Ritterkreuzträger der Waffen-SS. Coburg, Germany: Nation Europa Verlag. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help) -- Non WP:RS publisher Nation und Europa
• Lehmann, Rudolf (1987). The Leibstandarte. Winnipeg, Canada: J.J. Federowicz. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help) -- WP:Primary, revisionist account
• Meyer, Hubert (2005). The 12th SS : the History of the Hitler Youth Panzer Division. Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help) -- WP:Primary, revisionist account
• Miller, Michael D.; Schulz, Andreas. The SS-Brigadeführer, 1933–1945. Redding, California: Miller. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help) -- appears to be about the rank of SS-Brigadeführer in general, not about Witt; also appears to be non-scholarly, "militaria literature" source
• Yerger, Mark C. (1999). Waffen-SS commanders. Vol. II : the army, corps and divisional leaders of a legend. Atglen, PA: Schiffer Publishing. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help) -- a guru, an author, "(who) have picked up and disseminated the myths of the Wehrmacht in a wide variety of popular publications that romanticize the German struggle in Russia" (cited via The Myth of the Eastern Front

Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:58, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Since there's been no response, I will go ahead and remove. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:46, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Recent edit

Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "c/e; npov". --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:20, 18 October 2018 (UTC)