Talk:Fritz Perls

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I've read most of Perls' books more than once, including his autobiography, Shepard's biogaphy, and other things about Perls and never came across any reference to NLP or Dianetics. Can anyone substantiate these statements for me? Alan Nicoll 15:10, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

At Gestalt.org there's a bibliography that lists Perls' works, and these include an introduction to a book on Dianetics, so, never mind. Alan Nicoll 15:19, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

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The idea that Perls favoured Dianetics in any way is absurd - considering his work as a whole. If at all it cannot have been more than a thoughtless side-remark or something of that kind, - that didn't develop into an influence on his work. There's no proof that I would know of.

The introduction you mention is from 1951, that's a short time after the Perls' had arrived in the USA. It's THE ONLY reference to Dianetics.

At the same time there are indications that Hubbard - the other way round - borrowed from Fritz Perls.

see: [1] "GESTALT Hubbard also seems to have borrowed ideas from Fritz Perls' Gestalt Therapy - though I haven't looked into this in any depth yet."

Friedhelm, Germany, 1. Oct. 2005

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I removed this sentence from the article: "He drew upon many anti-establishment sources including L Ron Hubbard's Dianetics, which he pacticed, incorporating the concepts of enactment and returning to past trauma in order to clear mental problems." As I mentioned above there is no proof or plausible indication that Fritz Perls was involved with dianetics and scientology. If someone wants to keep up claiming this he or she should add proofs, sources or similar.

I also corrected the title of the 1951-book: it is "Gestalt therapy". I made some smaller corrections and added information. If my English appears clumsy, feel free to improve the style.

Friedhelm, Germany, 27. April 2006

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I have made the information about the Perls' fleeing from Nazi-Germany more precise.

Friedhelm, Germany, 28. April 2006

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I add some information that I have already put into the wikipedia article on "NLP", where some users also try to create the impression (without presenting evidence) that Fritz Perls supported dianetics:

I guess all this has to be seen in the context of the Perls' emigration to the USA in 1946. During the first years Fritz Perls tried to make as many contacts as possible to get better known. I found two other sources dealing with the question: First the German "Biographisch-Bibliographisches Kirchenlexikon.Band XVI (1999)Spalten 752-771 Autor: Marco Frenschkowski" [2]

The author says about Hubbard (my own, rough translation): "Among his (Hubbards') supporters are numerous authors from the field of science fiction – so besides Campbell especially A. E. Vogt, James Bush, Katherine MacLean, William Bourroughs. Even Aldous Huxley and Fritz Perls (the founder of Gestalt therapy) let themselves be audited by H. (as the dianetic procedure is called). All of them distance themselves from Hubbard later, Blish and Bourroughs in the first place become sharp critics (similar Arthur Jean Cox and Lester del Rey, who has never been a supporter of H.)"

("Zu seinen Anhängern gehören zahlreiche Autoren aus dem Umfeld der Science Fiction - so neben Campbell v. a. A. E. van Vogt, James Bush, Katherine MacLean, Williams Burroughs. Selbst Aldous Huxley und Fritz Perls (der Gründer der Gestalttherapie) lassen such von H. auditieren (wie das dianetische Verfahren heißt). Alle diese distanzieren sich später von H., vor allem Blish und Burroughs werden scharfe Kritiker (ähnlich Arthur Jean Cox und Lester del Rey, die nie Anhänger H.s waren).")

Unfortunately I cannot say what the author's sources are.

Jon Atack writes in "A Piece of blue sky" [3]

"Hubbard cast his net wide. Scientology has attracted people from most social and intellectual backgrounds, from laborers to lawyers, from plumbers to university professors. Frederick L. Schuman, professor of political science at Williams College, was an enthusiastic convert, and publicly defended Dianetics in 1950, though he soon changed his tack and distanced himself. There were psychologists working in the original Foundations; in fact, the New York Foundation was started by psychologist Nancy Rodenburg. Fritz Perls, founder of Gestalt therapy, defended Hubbard's early work (though insisting that it needed scientific validation), and briefly received Dianetic counselling."

Friedhelm, Germany, 6. May 2006

Canada and Perls' death

Concerning the former text: "until he had a falling out with the staff and left to start a Gestalt commune in Canada in 1969. Fritz died in 1970 of pancreatic cancer. He was a compulsive smoker all his life."

I have changed this sentence into:

"until he left the USA to start a Gestalt community at Lake Cowichan on Vancouver Island, Canada, in 1969. Fritz Perls died almost a year later in March 1970 in Chicago."

1. because " he had a falling out with the staff" is not supported by a source, - at least not known to me (so name the source. please); - Perls main reasons for leaving the USA were first: the deteriorating political situation, and second: his dream of creating a "Gestalt kibbuz" to which the community at Lake Cowichan should be a first step. Also he had become increasingly critical with the development at Esalen, which made him wanting to distance himself from it.

2. The sentence " Fritz died in 1970 of pancreatic cancer" simply is not correct in a strict sense. Fritz Perls had successfully undergone an operation concerning pancreatic cancer, but his condition grew worse again and he died soon after from a heart attack.

3. The sentence " Fritz died in 1970 of pancreatic cancer. He was a compulsive smoker all his life" suggests a cause-effect-relationship between his smoking and his death – that is speculation, or a disparaging remark.

My main source (there are several others in English, including Perls' autobiography "In an Out the Garbage Pail") is: Milan Sreckovic: "Geschichte und Entwicklung der Gestalttherapie" in: Fuhr, R./Sreckovic, M./Gremmler-Fuhr, M., (Eds.): "Handbuch der Gestalttherapie", Göttingen 1999 (Hogrefe), p. 15 – 178.

Friedhelm, Germany, August 5, 2006

Fritz Perls in Berlin 1893 - 1933

A new book has been published in Germany. For everyone who speaks German I would like to recommend it. It is rich and comprehensive. For example: So far we took it for granted that Perls' first contact with Wilhelm Reich took place in Berlin in 1930. Bocian shows that Perls met Reich already in 1927/28 in Vienna, while he (Perls) was studying at the "Lehrinstitut" of the "Wiener Psychoanalytische Vereinigung". (At the same time working at the "Wiener Nervenklinik" as assistant doctor.) The book:

• Bernd Bocian: Fritz Perls in Berlin. 1893 - 1933. Expressionismus - Psychoanalyse - Judentum, Peter Hammer Verlag, Wuppertal 2007.

Friedhelm, Germany, May 9, 2007

There is a translation into English meanwhile: Bocian, B. (2010): "Fritz Perls in Berlin 1893 - 1933. Expressionism - Psychonalysis - Judaism". Bergisch Gladbach: EHP Verlag Andreas Kohlhage. Friedhelm, Germany --79.228.19.68 (talk) 10:33, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Masson's criticism

I read the "Criticism"-part in the article about Fritz Perls and I have objections to the way Masson's criticism is presented. I think the general claim "Perls was sexist, as well as physically and emotionally abusive towards women in his private life" cannot be sustained, simply being based on one quotation from Perls' autobiography. Apart from the fact that it excludes the overwhelming rest of his life, it is also taken out of the context in which it appears in Perls' book in a distorting way.

In the book Perls reports an incident where he was called into a psychotherapy group because a woman attacked all the other participants physically, the incoming Perls included. They had a fight, and Perls got her on the ground. It is then that the words in Masson's quotation appear.

It is true that Perls also writes the following sentences: "she was asking for, and there are thousands of women like her in the States. Provoking and tantalizing, bitching, irritating their husbands and never getting their spanking." However I can't see that this one quotation under special circumstances justifies a general labelling of Perls as "sexist, as well as physically and emotionally abusive towards women in his private life." - including "his private life" without evidence.

Friedhelm (Germany) --2003:E4:1704:A940:9556:8800:C36B:15F2 (talk) 12:46, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Note that the description is from Masson, and is not Wikipedia's conclusion. There's a big difference. That being said, you may have something of a point regarding WP:WEIGHT, especially for such a brief article. And per WP:CRIT, perhaps the section should be shortened and incorporated into the rest of the article with no separate Criticism section. But the Masson information should not be entirely eliminated. I don't believe the article is protected, so you are welcome to edit it. You might want to first present your revision here so others might comment. Thanks for raising this issue. Sundayclose (talk) 01:14, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. I added some information to widen the scope of characterisations of Perls by different people, in this case: Barry Stevens. I can't do much more at the moment. Friedhelm (Germany) --2003:E4:1704:A927:3057:89BF:ED2E:448 (talk) 09:54, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I added to the quotation from Perls' autobiography, providing the greater context that Friedhelm mentioned above, although the greater context doesn't make his words any more palatable. I searched to try to find if anyone else discussed this quotation from Perls' autobiography, and I found very little discussion of it. I wonder if the quotation has received little attention because the whole section of Perls' autobiography where that quote is found is full of other scandalous statements; Perls seems to be writing in a deliberately provocative way. It's not that the text surrounding the quotation is sober and unremarkable, and then suddenly he drops this shocking bomb in the middle of it. The whole section is a string of one bomb after another. As Edwin C. Severinghaus said in his 1970 review of the book in International Journal of Group Psychotherapy (doi:10.1080/00207284.1970.11491793), "It's a rampant, free-associated, kaleidoscopic potpourri from the pseudo-modestly labeled garbage pail of his memories, into which he dips repeatedly and hands us the fragments of whatever random, tantalizing, contradictory, puzzling form they may appear. He pontificates, rambles, horses around, then turns around and chides himself for doing so..." Biogeographist (talk) 15:49, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I just want to thank you for your contribution. And one more little comment: Perls' "autobiography" is not an "autobiography" in the normal sense. He plays with it and quite often doesn't take himself seriously. I guess this is part of his non-conformism that he considered to be important (his inclination for provocation included), not just for himself but also for society. It is also important to understand that the autobiography was written in the context of Esalen and the counter-culture of that time. Friedhelm (Germany) --2003:E4:1704:A927:3057:89BF:ED2E:448 (talk) 16:31, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I have just added Erving Polsters' characterisation of Perls. Friedhelm (Germany) --2003:E4:1704:A913:9895:9421:75F1:4DAC (talk) 09:12, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

What was the correct quote for the following?

My purpose is not to live to your expectations, nor yours to mine. You are you and I am me. 2603:900A:1C0C:CAC:928:8826:139:9A00 (talk) 00:43, 25 June 2022 (UTC)