Talk:Fretless guitar

Dan Briggs and fretless?

To my knowledge, Dan Briggs from Between The Buried And Me has never used a fretless bass on any of their songs. Can somebody confirm? That's wrong info right there. Sindwiller (talk) 23:49, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Fretless bass guitar

Jaco Pastorius was not the first fretless bass player? Most of music magazines that I read from 1984 to 1994, reported that Pastorius invented the fretless bass guitar.Brian Wilson 15:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

"* Marshall Jones (bassist of Ohio Players) was an early user of a homemade defretted of an electric bass.(REFERENCE PLEASE!)"

I deleted "reference please" remark, that does not belong on the main page, but the talk page.Xproudfoot 02:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Gibson had a fretless bass guitar in 1938: http://www.usd.edu/smm/GiftShop/Postcards4x6/GibsonBass.html

That's a fretless electric bass guitar. Elderly has more info in this instrument.

John Deacon of Queen also played fretless bass, I believe, on "Radio Ga-Ga." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.48.52.250 (talk) 11:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

The 1938 Gibson instrument had a 42" scale length and was more like an electric upright, or electric mandobass than a bass guitar. Dinobass 04:23, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Didn't Fender have a fretless model prior to Jaco's prominence? He may have created his own fretless bass, but that doesn't make him the inventor. There was also the Ampeg Baby Bass, which while not a bass guitar, was an electric fretless. Dementia13 (talk) 03:02, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Fender, Rickenbacker and Ampeg all had production fretless bass guitars well before Jaco. Jaco's first fretless bass was already de-fretted when he purchased it. The article correctly does not mention Jaco other than as a player. The first fretless bass player was Bill Wyman of the Rolling stones. There were many electric upright basses before the Baby Bass - seeing as they are electric versions of upright basses, which are almost never fretted, there is little point refering to them as 'fretless' in this context and certainly no need for them to be mentioned in this article about the fretless guitar. Dinobass (talk) 05:06, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

More pics

Some months ago I uploaded two pictures on Commons :

• 
• 

Feel free to use them. jd 19:28, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

List of fretless players

Is it me, or is this list getting too cumbersome and should either be pared down to a few notable examples or be split off into a separate article? ---- WebHamster 14:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Very much so. I posted a cleanup link and immediately removed anyone where they or their band did not have an article. I am not a bassist or a guitarist, but i suggest that to be on the list, the musician must have consistently played fretless. i.e, Geddy Lee using a fretless bass on one instrumental does not make him a notable fretless bass player, just a notable bass player that has played fretless. --Evan Seeds (talk)(contrib.) 23:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, whoever deleted Tim Donahue and Ned Evett from the "Fretless Guitarist" list must not know much about fretless guitars or the artists who play them because a few people were left on there who barley even touch them. The fretless guitar is the future of the guitar, and it would nice to give credit where credit is due. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.143.132.104 (talk) 17:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems the rationale Metalcore424 is using is that a player doesn't have a wiki entry. This seems to be a particularly flawed and narrow viewpoint as it has resulted in several notable players being removed and the continued inclusion of players who have little more a wiki stub. I would urge Metalcore424 to use a slightly more objective method of selection - or at least check out more information on the players and events before simply removing them. Dinobass (talk) 06:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Recent decimation of noted player list:

While I agree mostly that the list has become pretty irrelavent, and one track on fretless bass or guitar is not notable, this recent decimation has removed some particularly notable players (eg. Percy Jones and Michael Manring) and historically important players (Bill Wyman). Please take more care when making such massive changes as often the only way to restore people who deserve to be in the list is by restoring the entire list. Dinobass (talk) 22:14, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

You don't need to restore the entire list to add people back. I'll give you Bill Wyman, who was an oversight, but I still think Victor Wooten, whilst an influential bass player, doesn't belong purely for a few tracks. Thedarxide (talk) 07:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I chose only to restore those I knew to be notable or regular fretless players. Unfortunately I didn't have time to research any names I didn't already know much about - so I'm fairly sure some players that deserve to be restored haven't been - this is particularly true of the fretless guitar players who were removed eg. Adrian Belew and Nguyen Le - I don't know, and haven't time to research, how much fretless they play. Dinobass (talk) 00:14, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

And as soon as someone says those I knew to be notable it ought to be deleted. Anyone who "doesn't have time" shouldn't waste time doing drive-by ORIGINAL RESEARCH, right? Far better to rebuild the list, one or two entries at a time, than to go fanboy and make all sorts of unfounded claims. I say delete ALL unsubstantiated claims.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 15:47, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Michael Vick

This player keeps getting added to and deleted from the players list. The latest addition being marked as vandalism. It seems to me that this player has been pioneering fretless guitar for a number of years, including organising fretless guitar festivals, has produced a number or recordings and been interviewed in print media (eg. several interviews in guitar player magazine). It seems the main reason he keeps getting removed is that he doesn't have a wikipedia page and also there is a suspicion that these are vanity edits. Given the relatively small number of fretless guitar players, it seems to me he passes all the formal wikipedia notability tests. Dinobass (talk) 00:06, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I looked into it last year and determined that it would be difficult to establish his notability enough for a Wikipedia biography article. If you can prove me wrong by writing one, fine. Binksternet (talk) 00:37, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

It does seem a bit thin. But fretless guitar players are pretty unusual. What do we need? Guitar player magazine article year/edition? There are supposed to be at least two articles, but finding them on the guitar player website is proving tricky. Dinobass (talk) 05:36, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

All I can so far find is a scan of the Guitar Player article, which does little more than mention him by name. http://www.unfretted.com/images/NYC/nyc_fest_gp_dec_05.jpg probably won't put much more effort in. Dinobass (talk) 00:32, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't rule out Vick becoming notable in the future. If you see something like a magazine article featuring his life and work... Binksternet (talk) 04:13, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Additional citations

Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 17:03, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

bill wyman

an entry in the current article has me rattled. the article says wyman removed the frets because they were rattling, and "this can be heard" on albums. What can be heard, the fretless bass or the rattling? 68.174.97.122 (talk) 18:00, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

=reverse this

Fretless bass is so much more popularly known and considered so much more mainstream or conventional than the fretless guitar which is much more of a separate thing in essence from the fretted guitar than the fretless bass is to one with frets. Meaning it doesn't make sense that the fretless guitar is the page and fretless bass is the subpage. It should be the other way around, or at least a 'fretless instruments' page or category should prominently feature fretless bass, or at least more prominently than the obscure and more radical fretless guitar. (talk) 03:06, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Relative volume of fretless vs fretted instruments.

It is asserted at several points in this article that fretless guitars or basses are noticeably quieter than their fretted counterparts. It is also suggested that this is so extreme that most western fretless instruments are amplified.

This seems contrary to my experience. I have defretted acoustic guitars and there is not a substantially noticeable difference in volume before and after. I have also played instruments which are partially fretted and again there is no noticeable drop in volume when playing the fretless portions of the neck.

Certainly there is a sharper attack and often more sustain with the fretted instrument but this is not the same as played volume.

I am proposing to remove the statements about volume as they appear to have no experimental basis - or at least asking for citations.

Dinobass (talk) 23:38, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

List of Bassists is ridiculous.

Sorry, but Geddy Lee, John Deaon, John Paul Jones, John Myung, Paul Simonon and Victor Wooten aren't known for their fretless playing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.225.143.253 (talk) 21:40, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

The list of musicians has the title 'Famous users'. If the list instead implied that the players listed all played primarily fretless bass or guitar, you might have a point. However, if that was the requirement the list would be extremely short indeed. All of those musicians on the list are well known recording artists, who have played fretless bass live or on recordings, most of the bass players have played a significant amount of fretless bass in their careers.

Of the musicians you've singled out - John Deacon played fretless live and on several recordings with Queen, Paul Simonon played fretless on 'Sandanista', 'combat rock' and 'cut the crap' as well as live touring. Victor Wooten owns several fretless basses and has played them live and on recordings, John Paul Jones played fretless on several Led Zepellin songs. Which leaves really John Myung and Geddy Lee who appear to have merely dabbled in the instrument. Dinobass (talk) 04:45, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Always the same trouble with lists and this list is no exception. The Main Article is about the Fretless Guitar! That alone makes any list of fretless bass players obsolete! For the instrument "fretless bass" the article correctly links to a subsection of Bass Guitar. I suggest that the list of fretless bass players be added to Bassist Article as a new subsection. 93.200.7.241 (talk) 08:29, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. The electric bass derives from the (fretless!) "double bass" violin; as fretless guitar is the anomaly, it's the fretted bass that departs from roots. IME, adding fretless bass to my skillset was easy; fretless guitar requires a HUGE overhaul of fretted technique.

I would NOT support the case that a five-string bass is an extended-range guitar. And I likewise don't believe that "fretless bass" has ANY place in this article. Link back to bass guitar, but delete ALL other mentions.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 16:41, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

The electric bass *guitar* does not, in any way shape or form, derive from the 'double bass'. It is clearly derived from the electric guitar, really the only thing it has in common with an upright bass is the tuning. Look at the patents for the original Fender Precision bass, apart from dimensions, it is identical to the patent for the broadcaster/telecaster guitar. The fretless bass guitar is just as much a departure as the fretless guitar - the only difference is that there are bass guitarists who are also familiar with the 'fretless' upright bass.

Dinobass (talk) 22:25, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

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why the list will be trimmed

Firstly, these list entries make repeated fanboy usage of claims to immediacy, like "now" and "currently." As this is not a curated list and has been barely maintained for 2+ years, these are immediately questionable at best.

In addition, "someone who once touched one" is NOT interchangeable with "someone who regularly plays one." Guthrie Govan might be notable, as he is a showy player AND is associated with a particular brand; Mick Karn and Jaco Pastorius are certainly known to have relied on fretless bass. From there, the list runs quickly down.

For the purposes of inclusion in a Wikipedia "notable users" listing, the criteria are simple, being dictated by the term "notable users" itself:

1. the purported user (or an associated entity to which they belong, such as a musical act or a company) must have a Wikipedia article, AND
2. that article must provide an explicit and externally substantiated claim of usage

Lacking substantiation, any such claim is dubious, and vulnerable to deletion. Lacking an article, any such claim is at best original research — for which refer to Wikipedia:No original research or more pointedly Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a publisher of original though.

A further requirement for any extended list ought to be that one or more credible sources should be cited who provided the list content. Otherwise, creation of the list constitutes original research whether it was built by one person or whether every individual entry was placed by its own editor.

In this article, each of those entries really ought to have its own citation to a non-WP source, rather than merely an article link. Certainly, any claimed WP article that doesn't provide a citation about a fretless guitar makes that entry vulnerable to removal. Simply saying here "it's on the DVD" is insufficient. With that in mind, I will be pruning the list.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 07:00, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

I have entirely removed the list of bassists, as there's a perfectly suitable place for such trivia — if accompanied by credible references, of course — over at Bass guitar#Fretted and fretless basses. I will also be cutting back references to basses in Fretless guitar as being an overall non sequitur (look it up). Have a nice day elsewhere.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 04:54, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I have re-removed the list of bassists, despite the plaint by Dinobass that Fretless bass guitars should exist here, after all, the name makes it clear that they are bass *guitars* which is self-serving fanboy nonsense. If electric bass were simply just a subtype of electric guitar, then there wouldn't be the article Bass guitar, right? Go fix THAT first.

As for the accompanying Restored … many guitarists who appear to have been removed simply because the previous editor is unaware of them, set aside that I've been playing fretless guitar since I made my first one in 1974. Instead, note that NONE of those entries is supported by a reference (making the pile a problem both of OR and POV), which per the note at the top

Unsourced material may be challenged and removed.

I have challenged. I have explained myself here. I have removed. I intend to maintain that status quo, but am willing to entertain any rational explanations of how all that fancruft is consonant with Wikipedia.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 19:27, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

FWIW: "WP:NOR includes "To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented." WP:PROVEIT adds:

All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution. Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source.

so that's the line I propose
Weeb Dingle (talk) 19:42, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

These comments of yours in this talk page are disrespectful to the point of vandalism. You are accusing multiple editors of being 'fanboys', based on your own internal criteria. You are also making a personal and unsupported claim that a fretless bass guitar is, somehow, not a guitar. This is astonishingly biassed, and to be honest petty. The electric bass guitar is a guitar, bass guitarists are guitarists. This goes back to the original patent document for the precision bass guitar which is clearly and unequivocally a larger bass version of the electric broadcaster guitar. There really is no place for unsupported bias such as yours on wikipedia. To dismiss, without citation or other support, a verifyable fact such as this as 'fanboy' or non sequitur is really against the ethos of wikipedia. Please be more respectful to both other editors (essentially everyone who ever added to the list of players), and more importantly to facts, in the future.

I can see you have removed both lists of players completely. I would tend to support that decision. Very few other instruments have such lists. If you restore, at some point, the list of fretless guitarists, the list of fretless bass guitarists will also need to be restored. Dinobass (talk) 21:43, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

"All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material"
Weeb Dingle (talk) 00:15, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

The members of both of those lists were fairly easily verifiable. Indeed some of the entries in both lists mentioned CDs (the only other instrument page I can think of with a list of notable players daxophone lists CDs for each of them). The fact that the 'bass guitar' list was initially removed while the otherwise similar 'guitar' list retained suggests that verifiability was not the issue. Personal bias shouldn't be allowed to get in the way of facts. You have stated a desire to remove the fretless bass guitar from this article completely. This would be disappointing, as the existence of fretless bass guitars predates the fretless guitar by a number of years. This is my main issue here, the removal of a member of an instrument family from a discussion page about that instrument and its variations, for what can only be seen as personal bias. Dinobass (talk) 05:41, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

the generalized idiocy of WP lists

Maartin Allcock Multi-stringed instrumentalist — Oh, is he now? So exactly how MANY strings are attached to the fellow? And ought I pity or envy him?
Weeb Dingle (talk) 05:12, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

There are no listed users of fretless guitars in the article at all now... certainly Bumblefoot should be mentioned.Jules TH 16 (talk) 20:45, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

date of invention?

clams to have been invented in 1976, but guitar types such as steel guitar were fretless for a hundred years. 2.55.189.205 (talk) 10:21, 13 October 2021 (UTC)