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Article title

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If he was "known professionally as Fred C. Palmer", shouldn't his article be so titled? (We have an article on Robert Capa, not on Endre Ernő Friedmann.) -- Hoary (talk) 00:10, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

His full real name is used for the title for several reasons. Firstly, there are hundreds of Fred Palmers, and even of Fred C. Palmers if you try to research him. Secondly there were apparently at least two generations of successful professional photographers at Ramsgate, near Herne Bay where FCP had a studio, and one of these was Fred T. Palmer. Thirdly, a search for Fred C. Palmer on Wiki will bring up this article anyway. His full name is unique, as far as I'm aware, because "Christian" is such an unusual name. This means that if you are researching the full name you can be pretty sure of finding the right man. If you Google "Robert Capa", on the other hand, you get mostly the right man. It helps to be more famous!
The full name also brings this article in line with the rest of the set associated with William Eastman Palmer & Sons. One of the reasons for researching this set of two generations of photographers is to examine how it was that so early in the development of the photographic studio trade there was so much sophisticated art and skill, and above all consistency of output across the board. The passing on of skills, discipline and knowledge through families appears to be part of it, and the passed-on names within this family appear to symbolise this. Thus FCP carries his grandmother's name, Christian, and she also brought the name Eastman into the family. FCP's father and brother carry the name Eastman, which may or may not suggest a connection with the American Eastman photographic family. We have more to learn here, but these full names are evocative of all that we are beginning to understand and respect about 19th and 20th century studio work.--Storye book (talk) 01:42, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, all right then. ¶ Yes, photographic families are interesting. As one example, see Šechtl and Voseček (dreadfully unsourced, it must be said), and the articles linked from it. -- Hoary (talk) 02:14, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That postcard

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First, I only see one tableau. The single tableau indeed comprises a number of elements, but I wouldn't call each element a tableau. On the other hand I am no expert in this kind of photographic choreography. Is the word tableau so used?

Secondly, we read:

the beams from the late afternoon sun passing through the windows on both sides of the Grand Pier Pavilion suggest a time of around 4.30pm

Surely the angle of the sunlight can only suggest a time if we know what time of the year this was. Perhaps we do know this, but if so then this information isn't clearly given within the description. -- Hoary (talk) 02:39, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is the word tableau so used? - If you are asking whether "tableau" is the accepted name of the genre of postcard in which actors create various tableaux: I have no idea. "Tableau" was used in the late 19th century and early 20th to describe a still onstage pose by a group of actors in Europe; convenient in cabaret entertainment where moving nude entertainers were not permitted by law. Zola's Nana describes just such a tableau in Paris. My guess is that the black-stockinged actress with the bicycle is a gentle and humorous reference to this stage genre. Some years ago I heard a BBC radio interview in which a researcher of the history of photography discussed this genre, but I don't remember him naming the genre. He did mention a particular exponent - possibly in continental Europe - but I can't remember who that was. I am hoping that eventually someone will tell us. The researcher did say that some examples of this genre contain actors pretending to be pickpockets or worse, but I have found nothing like that here. The radio interview (if only I had a citation!) does tell us that this is not the only example of the genre, though.
Tableau or tableaux? - If we are going to use one of those two words, I think it has to relate or refer as closely as possible to the contemporary onstage tableau which tended to consist of a single big group telling a single story; for example the assassination of Julius Caesar or Joan of Arc in battle. However in this postcard there are various little groups representing separate stories, so I think "tableaux" is more appropriate.
4.30pm or not 4.30pm? - I agree that the time of year makes a difference. The concert party could only exist during the summer months when the crowds were greatest. Herne Bay advertised itself primarily as a resort which was healthy for children. It was known at the time as a place of nannies and children. So my guess is that just like today, this UK holiday resort was busiest in August. It is true that most of the postcards of that era which I have collected are postmarked August. The running boy was a schoolboy from Herne Bay College, but many of the boys were children of expats who had to stay at the school all summer.
NB: The above comments are not intended as an argument or refutation - I'm just letting you know the thinking behind the article. If we can improve it, then that is good.--Storye book (talk) 11:27, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I was already slightly familiar with tableaux vivants, having encountered them in, I think, The Age of Innocence (or perhaps some other work of Wharton's) -- though I don't at all mind being discreetly reeducated. Sorry, my first question was poorly worded. The entire spectacle cannot have been choreographed. (This would have required employment of a cast of dozens.) Instead, Palmer presumably conspired to add a few actors to the large number of people who would have been there without him. There's no one thing being acted out; instead, there are minor, staged dramas going on here and there (a little like the mini-dramas going on toward the background of a painting by Brueghel). I suppose that each of these might be called a tableau, but this wording still seems odd to me; rather, each seems part of a larger [single] tableau. I was wondering whether it's normal to talk of a tableau to refer to one of several staged elements or areas augmenting a larger scene. If it is, then let's talk of tableaux here; but if it isn't, then let's talk of parts of a single tableau. -- Hoary (talk) 02:29, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think we are struggling with naming a new genre here, and we only have words which refer to old genres. So we have to face the fact that we have a genre which is new to us and has not yet been officially analysed, described and named by experts - or at least if they have (e.g. that radio interview I heard), their work is not yet accessible to us. Without such a citation, we cannot satisfactorily name the genre ourselves on Wiki because that would be OR. I think that until such a citation comes to light, we will have accept the present ambiguity.
I was told long ago by a witness that the man onstage was whistling pre-arranged commands to the tableau-actors, so it follows that the crowd was aware that something was going on; they are behaving in the photo as if they have previously been asked to ignore the whistling. In that sense they are complicit, and that would make it a combined or complex single tableau.
But if it is a single tableau, it is one which stretches well into the distance, involving a regatta where only one person is in the know. The clock tower is right next to the site, and its chimes would be heard on the pier by the man with the starting pistol. We cannot be sure whether there was a pre-arrangement with the starting-gun man, but since we can see the gunsmoke in the picture, it does seem a very lucky coincidence.
Herne Bay College was officially involved in this, having chosen the running boy from among its pupils for the project. I was told long ago by a member of the school's staff that the running boy was a good runner with an unpredictable personality, and that FCP did not know until he developed the print that the boy had been caught in shot exactly where he was supposed to be and doing what he was supposed to do - both the school and the photographer were much gratified with the successful result, because (I was told) it was the most risky part of the choreography. The whole thing reminds me of one of those Truffaut films where he is showing just how much choreography goes into creating a crowd scene.
So what interests me about this is that with hindsight this photo is a precursor to the work of some of the great film directors, and it shows that those directors did not invent the complex technique of filming acted tableaux among public crowds. It begs the question of where are the other tableaux-vivants-in-crowds photographs that were mentioned in that radio interview? If we could see even one of them, it might shed more light on our understanding of the influences which combined to create the one we have here. There is more research to do.--Storye book (talk) 11:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Then let's settle for the plural. (I must say that it still sounds odd to me, but perhaps I'll get used to it.) As for those present in the scene, there are so many that my trusty companion "Occam" tells me it's more likely that most don't know what's going on than that they know they're being staged but are "acting naturally". ¶ I've a hunch that there are precedents in paintings for this kind of thing: I'm sure I've seen apparently "normal" crowd scenes in which careful inspection turns up a dog peeing here, an apparently three-legged man there.... Hoary (talk) 13:20, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I'm happy with the plural for the time being, until some expert comes along with the official title for the genre. Thank you for correcting my error with the plural adjective vivants, by the way. I'd like to archive this conversation now, if are you in agreement?--Storye book (talk) 15:07, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's very unusual to archive a conversation in a talk page so quickly. Why the rush? -- Hoary (talk) 15:21, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Haha (please take that as gentle laughter) - with the best will in the world you risk another long answer here. Of course anyone is welcome to continue to discuss the tableau(x) postcard; there are several features that I have purposely not mentioned in the article or on the image file, so that people can have fun searching the image for them. Maybe they will spot them and list them here. If we are really lucky they will spot something new.
However the suggestion of archiving was about moving forward. The research on this photo has been exhausted for the time being (unless something unexpected turns up). There are other avenues to explore, e.g.: (1) precisely what FCP did in WWI and who paid him; (2) whether the move to Swindon was a wartime evacuation of his family from the east coast or for some other reason; (3) why we only have his cheap postcards, and his expensive portraits of town bigwigs have not been found yet; (4) whether there are any original prints of his important photos, e.g. of the visit of the Mayor of London to Herne Bay. The answers to these will not be ends in themselves, but may contribute to our understanding of this master photographer as an artist.--Storye book (talk) 15:42, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see nothing embarrassing or regrettable in what's above. A potential contributor to the article may wish to look at its talk page and thereupon see something above that will prompt them to add knowledgable or insightful comments that will lead to the eventual improvement of the article. -- Hoary (talk) 00:11, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Archiving is not about hiding stuff; it's about making space. If anything, a Wiki archive box makes one curious. But I'm happy not to archive if you feel that the conversation is not over. Now please forgive me; I must continue research.--Storye book (talk) 11:28, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Date of death

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The article currently says that Palmer had a base in Swindon as well as Herne Bay and died in 1939, though it doesn't actually say where he retired to or died. And the current inline citations against his date of death (31 & 32) lead to broken external links: these have been changed since the article was created, and now both point to the same broken web page. (Looking at the Wayback Machine suggests that they were never really any use anyway, e.g. here, otherwise I'd just fix them - no offence.) The original links (16 & 17) point via www.freebmd.org.uk to deaths recorded in the districts of Elham, around Folkestone in Kent, and King's Lynn in Norfolk. Meanwhile www.freebmd.org.uk has no record of anyone of the name dying in the Swindon district between 1935 and 1940. But, www.freebmd.org.uk remains a work in progress, and I note that searching it now finds the death of a "Palmer, Frederick" in the Blean district, including Herne Bay, in 1935 aged 78, this chap possibly being the same as the "Palmer, Frederick C." whose birth was registered in the Gravesend district in Kent in 1857 (1935-78=1857). Another chap "Palmer, Frederick" died in the Blean district in 1934, but his age at death of 71 suggests that he just might have been the lad "Palmer, Frederick" - with no "C." - whose birth was registered in the Croydon district (all Surrey but for Penge, in Kent) in 1863 (1934-71=1863). Obviously I understand that all of this could be a wild goose chase and I could've messed up somewhere, but, any chance of an edit to clear this up, or helpful thoughts? And, sorry if I'm missing anything obvious... Thanks. Nortonius (talk) 01:11, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Time is against me now. I am unlikely to get into F C Palmer until Tuesday though I will try before then. Still, no deadline eh! --Senra (talk) 03:44, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This question is now resolved. Thank you for the effort that you have put into this, Senra and Nortonius; much appreciated.--Storye book (talk) 17:14, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Aha! No, thank you! It now looks like I had missed something obvious, too...! But, very pleased to see this cleared up, I'll go and fix the date of death on a couple of WCommons images I've used at Reculver. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 17:22, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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We do not need to include the shortened name

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The whole point of the manual of style rule encapuslated in CNNRC is that certain nicknames are assumed. His name was Frederick, so we know his nickname was Fred. Such a nickname is so common, that even if he choose not to use Fred others would. Using C. instead of Christian is also expected. If it is true he always signed "Fred C. Palmer", that would seem to be the common name, and we should use it is the article name. However we do not need to explicitly spell out it as a form of '''Frederick Christian Palmer''' beyond that.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:13, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are several answers to your question.
  • Until recently, and certainly during Palmer's era, the form "Fred C. Palmer" was considered an American style, and was not normally used in the UK, where at that time American English was considered déclassé. They would normally miss out the second name, or (to differentiate from others of similar first and last names) include the middle name in full.. Therefore, "Fred C. Palmer" is not to be expected during Palmer's era, because it was not "common" in the sense that you have used the word "common".
  • One of the primary purposes of WP articles is as a first stop for researchers. Any researcher of Palmer would need to input his professional name into the search engine when looking for primary sources, or checking our WP citations.
  • The most frequently found examples of his work today are his postcards, most of which have "Fred C. Palmer" written on the back. In his era, there were other photographers called Palmer.
  • One of WP's rules is that commonsense should be used, regarding the rules.
  • There are many other Palmers on WP, but only one Frederick Christian Palmer, which is why that name has been chosen for the title. It is not wrong to use a full name for an article title, and it is not wrong to assist researchers by giving the exact style of name which they will need to begin their own research. Storye book (talk) 08:51, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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