Talk:Fred Rogers/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: Lizzy150 (talk · contribs) 19:23, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I was looking through the media and drama GA nominations and thought this article would be interesting! I believe you were meant to review this at one point but you decided to become editor instead. Here are my comments after a first read..

Yes, I was doing the same and was excited to see it, since children's TV is my wheelhouse on WP. Then I unfortunately had to fail it, but promised to edit it, since the movie with Tom Hanks was due to come out and I thought Rogers' bio should be at least a GA because you know it's gonna get a lot of traffic. So your timing is perfect, Lizzy! ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:46, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

"He was known as the creator, composer, producer, head writer, showrunner, and host of the preschool television series Mister Rogers' Neighborhood (1968–2001)" — I'd be inclined to rephrase that as: "He was known as the creator, showrunner and host of the preschool television series Mister Rogers' Neighborhood, which ran for thirty-three years, 1968 to 2001." I think the term "showrunner" encompasses the producer and writing part. Also, stating 33 years makes it sound like an achievement. What do you think?
"The program was marked by its slow pace and its host's calm manner." — does that need to be stated here? Seems a bit too early to me.

Great ideas, thanks. Made the above changes.

I think the second paragraph is too detailed. Details about the TV program can be described later, focus on what Rogers did. Therefore, try to refine the second paragraph like so:

Born in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh, Rogers earned a bachelor's degree in music from Rollins College in 1951. He began his television career in 1951, working for NBC in New York. He returned to Pittsburgh in 1953 to work for children's programming at NET (later PBS) television station WQED. After graduating from Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, he became a Presbyterian minister in 1963 and attended the University of Pittsburgh's Graduate School of Child Development. Shortly afterwards, he began working alongside child psychologist Margaret McFarland for three decades. He also helped develop children's shows, The Children's Corner (1955) and Misterogers (1963). In 1968, he created Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, which ran for thirty-three years. The program was critically acclaimed for focusing on children’s emotional and physical concerns, such as death, sibling rivalry, school enrollment and divorce.

Also great. I followed most of your suggestion, except that I changed the line about McFarland to demonstrate that Rogers began working with her while at Pittsburgh. I also added a comma after the word "enrollment" because I'm a believer in the Oxford comma. ;)

"Rogers died on February 27, 2003, of stomach cancer." — perhaps rephrase it to: "Rogers died of stomach cancer on February 27, 2003."
"40 honorary degrees" — replace '40' with 'forty'. We should express this figure as words

According to MOS:SPELL09, both ways of representing numbers over 10 are acceptable. I believe in following the recommendations of my reviewers, so I'll change it to your style. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:46, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

"11 years old" — replace '11' with 'eleven'

Changed as per above. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:46, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Early work

"named for WQED's station manager" and "named for Rogers' wife" — do you mean "named after"?

Yes, of course. Changed.

"He acquired the rights to Misterogers in 1967 and returned to Pittsburgh with his wife, his two young sons, and the sets he developed at the CBC, despite a his potentially promising career with the CBC and no job prospects in Pittsburgh" — the words in bold could be removed to simplify this sentence

Followed this suggestion. My understanding was that unlike TV networks in the U.S., most networks in other countries use the "the" article in front of their titles. CBC's WP article follows this convention, although it's not consistent, but CBC's webpage does not. I wasn't able to find anything definitive, so I followed your suggestion and CBC's own practice.

"(Coombs remained in Toronto, creating the long-running children's program Mr. Dressup, which ran from 1967 to 1996.)" — I don't think brackets are needed here

Removed. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:09, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mister Rogers' Neighborhood

"picked up and aired nationally by" — I think it's enough to say "broadcast by" because you already used the word "nationally" in the sentence before
"The program also "incorporated most of the highly imaginative elements that later became famous"[41] on the program" — no need for "on the program" at the end

Addressed above two comments.

" 200 songs and 13 operas" — change to "two-hundred songs and thirteen operas"

Okay, but again as per MOS:SPELL09, "two hundred" shouldn't be hyphenated.

The rest of this section was fine. There's a few minor changes that I would make, but I'm not going to list them all here. I might make the changes myself.

Please, feel free and knock yerself out, as they say. ;) I believe that sometimes it's easier and would take less time for reviewers to simply make the changes themselves. The challenging part about this section, for me, is that I didn't follow my normal practice for this kind of article. When I edited Sesame Street, I worked on (and sometimes created) articles about each aspect of the show, and then returned to the main article and summarized the content in different sections, as Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout#Section_templates_and_summary_style suggests. I would've liked to do that here—work on Mister Rogers' Neighborhood, and then return here and summarize it—but I realized that it would take a lot of research, and I chose not to do it at this time because I thought it was more important to get this article to at least GA-quality before the movie came out in November 2019. I also had other things on my plate both WP-wise and in my RL. Perhaps I'll do it at another time, so that this article could be improved to successfully pass a FAC. I suspect that's why this section doesn't feel right to you, although I believe it's enough for this article to be promoted to a GA. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:37, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Personal life

The last paragraph about interviews and speeches, sounds like it could also fit in the career section above. You could rename "Other television work" to "Other work and appearances" or something similar, and move the paragraph there. I think that last paragraph could be integrated elsewhere. What do you think?

After thinking this a little while, I wonder this might be the place where the old "Advocacy" section would go; see [1] and scroll down. I'd improve the content and update the sources, of course. I mean, people will think that it's important enough to include. I'm not sure, though, that the VCR content belongs, since I don't think it's important, although it was a court appearance that the Supreme Court considered. What do you think? In the meantime, I cut-and-paste the interview information here and renamed the section. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 00:23, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There's a few minor changes here too, that I'd make

Death and memorials

"put off treatment" — change to "delayed treatment"
In the first paragraph, you state, "He died less than two months later.." and then "He died one month before..". Try to rephrase it as: "He died less than two months later... one month shy of his 75th birthday"
"section to his death" — change to "on his death"
"Rogers' death was widely covered" — "widely lamented" might be more appropriate as the media were mourning him
"Most U.S. metropolitan newspapers ran his obituary on their front page, and some dedicated entire sections to coverage of his death." — really? Might need to put source 96 and any others here
"the Post-Gazette reported that the ratings for their coverage were three times higher than their normal ratings." — Might need to put source 96 and any others here

All comments addressed. The last two comments seem redundant and WP:OVERREF, but okay. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 00:45, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy

"became the top-grossing biographical documentary ever produced, was the highest-grossing documentary in five years" — what's the difference between top-grossing and highest-grossing? Is there any need for the second part?

The difference is that the documentary was the top-grossing bio doc made and that it made the most money out of any doc in five years. I wanted to vary the language, but I could say something like, "became the highest-grossing biographical documentary ever produced, was the highest-grossing documentary in five years"

The first quote box, although it's a quote from Rogers, probably needs to be sourced

Done.

Could you possibly move the second quote box to another section as two quotes in a row makes the page look clunky?

I don't see where else it would fit content-wise. I put the quotes in the same box; does that help it look less clunky? Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:37, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Remaining sections

Could you possibly re-arrange the images next to the Awards table, so that they are above or below it? People on smaller screens will see a squished table otherwise.

Images moved.

In the section Art pieces, the second sentence is quite long. Could we break it up?

Yes, done.

In the Television section, did you consider a table? This is how television work is usually presented in Wiki articles.

Year	Title	Role	Notes
1955	The Children's Corner	...	...
1964	The Butternut Square	...	...

Ugh, I hate tables. ;) But done anyway.

I have no other major concerns. I think some of the quotes from King could be paraphrased and integrated into the text rather than taking his direct quotes. Overall, the article appears to be stable, neutral, well-researched and illustrated with images. Thanks, Lizzy (talk 19:23, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I agree with your feedback about the King quotes. I do agree, however, that this article tends to depend too heavily upon King and if we were to bring it to FAC, we'd have to include more sources to better fulfill the comprehensiveness criteria. We need more research to bring this article to the next level, but I think its current version fits the GA criteria nicely. @Lizzy150: thanks so much for the review; it's muchly appreciated. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:57, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Figureskatingfan: thank you for swiftly making the changes. The article is in much better shape (funnily enough, another user has made some copy edits reverting what I suggested!) It's okay if you have different opinions to my points! As for the Advocacy section, you could create a level-3 section for it and put it after "Other work and appearances" (bear in mind the chapter is called "Television career" and might need renaming to just "Career" if you do). But I agree his Advocacy can fit somewhere there. The VCR stuff isn't that important to me, but no harm in mentioning it as it's related to advocacy. Feel free to ask me later though, whatever you do.

I've done a quick check of the sources and this appears fine. Thank you (and the other editors!) for working on this article. Without further delay, I'm promoting this to GA status. I hope Tom Hanks is good in the movie! Lizzy (talk 22:30, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Lizzy150: Thanks for the review and the pass. It's unfortunate that this article isn't at a higher point, but I think it's adequate and {har-har) good enough. I'll go ahead and make your above suggestions. Have you seen the trailers yet? Hanks looks exceptional; I'm looking forward to seeing the movie. I have a feeling our world needs its message. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:24, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The quote in the Career: Other Work and Appearances section is the quote "In many speeches, including the ones he made accepting a Lifetime Achievement Emmy in 1997,[78] for his induction into the Television Hall of Fame in 1999,[80] and his final commencement speech at Dartmouth College in 2002, he instructed his audiences to remain silent and think for 10 seconds about someone who had a good influence on them.[81]" This is incorrect. He requested "one minute". This is supported in citation 81 and videos of the commencement at Dartmouth that are available on YouTube.Shingshing2 (talk) 18:54, 19 November 2019 (UTC)Shingshing2[reply]