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Talk:Frankie Howard (footballer)

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Requested move 16 October 2020

[edit]
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus. After much-extended time for discussion, there is a clear absence of consensus with respect to the proposed move. An suggestion has been made that Frankie Howard should point to the disambiguation page, Frank Howard, but this has not been carried forward in the discussion. BD2412 T 05:31, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Frankie Howard (footballer) → Frankie Howard – Sole Wikipedia entry which bears this exact name, thus obviating the need for the parenthetical qualifier "(footballer)". A hatnote specifying, "For the English comedian, see Frankie Howerd", should resolve any uncertainty. The hatnote atop the comedian's entry that currently indicates, "Frankie Howard" redirects here. For the English footballer, see Frankie Howard (footballer)", should simply specify that "For the English footballer, see Frankie Howard". — Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:26, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 09:33, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously a strong misunderstanding of the nomination. Since the comedian and the footballer have different surnames, there is no competition for primacy between them. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:25, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No. There is no misunderstanding on my part. The comedian is the primary topic for this spelling, as shown by the google results. Per Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Primary topic: "A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term." DrKay (talk) 20:02, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Even the sheriff gets more hits than the footballer: [1]. DrKay (talk) 20:44, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And yet the misunderstanding still seems to continue. I am not aware of any other instance on English Wikipedia in which a redirect to a differently-spelled name takes precedence over an entry which actually uses the name spelling represented in the redirect. Brown is a surname that is different from Browne, Green is a different surname from Greene, Reid is not the same surname as Reed, Read or Reade, etc. As for the sheriff Frank Howard, there are 13 men named "Frank Howard" at the Frank Howard disambiguation page, but the footballer's name is not "Frank", "Franklin" or "Franklyn". His unique name is "Frankie Howard" and his birth name is "Francis". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:57, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The sheriff 's nickname is Frankie. His surname is Howard. The footballer's nickname is Frankie. His surname is Howard. The comedian's nickname is Frankie. His surname is Howard. Frankie Howard is not a unique name. They are all called Frankie Howard. These are incontestable facts that are easily proven. DrKay (talk) 07:04, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, but if "Frankie Howard" was also the WP:COMMONNAME of the sheriff and the comedian, then the main title headers of their Wikipedia entries would depict the name "Frankie Howard". The fact remains that the sole Wikipedia header depicting the name "Frankie Howard" is the one for the footballer who should not be encumbered with the unnecessary parenthetical qualifier, "(footballer)". As we all know, based upon longstanding Wikipedia form WP:CONSISTENCY, a simple hatnote atop the footballer's article, pointing to the comedian and, if consensus agrees, also to the sheriff, would suffice in resolving any possible uncertainty. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 14:59, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom and GiantSnowman. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:02, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose ... I've expanded the scope of Frank Howard to include "Frankie" and added the footballer's article there; I've also added a Distinguish hatnote to this page pointing at "Frankie Howerd". I've also moved listings for both "Frankie Howard (footballer)" and "Frankie Howerd" into See Also for page Francis Howard, noting their birth names. My thinking is to redirect "Frankie Howard" to "Frank Howard" and treat it as part of the HNDIS set article, retaining the footballer's article as currently titled, and re-routing the redirect now pointing at "Frankie Howerd". As for making a misspelling of "Frankie Howerd" the primary topic of "Frankie Howard", I don't think that is proper form. If "Frankie Howard" were actually an alias or alternative spelling of "Frankie Howerd", then I could understand, but that is not the case. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:58, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The birth name of the comedy star was Francis Alick Howard. There is no indication that he ever used the name "Frankie Howard" or that he was ever known under the name "Frankie Howard". The fact still remains that the sole Wikipedia main title header bearing the name "Frankie Howard" is the one delineating the footballer's entry, thus making the parenthetical qualifier "(footballer)" unnecessary. Moreover, I cannot even find another Wikipedia entry in which the sole bearer of a main header is encumbered with a parenthetical qualifier simply because the bearer's name resembles the name of another Wikipedia entry. As we all know, such distinctions are made via hatnotes, not via parenthetical qualifiers. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:32, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just look in a biography. He was called Frankie Howard until 1944, when he changed his surname 'to be different'. DrKay (talk) 08:41, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Taking that fact into account, Howerd's Wikipedia biography states that, "...he continued to work after the war, beginning his professional career in the summer of 1946 in a touring show called For the Fun of It". Thus, even though Francis Howard was called "Frankie Howard" until 1944, his career as a professional entertainer began in 1946 as "Frankie Howerd" and Wikipedia would be no more likely to elevate him as the primary "Frankie Howard" than to make him the primary "Francis Howard". Since Wikipedia has not created a misspelled primary topic redirect for anyone else, it should not create a precedent in this instance. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 09:41, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't misspelled. DrKay (talk) 10:22, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Since Wikipedia has not created an alternatively-spelled primary topic redirect for anyone else, it should not create a precedent in this instance. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 11:11, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Deliberately misdirecting readers to the wrong article remains as poor a suggestion now as it was the first time you suggested it. DrKay (talk) 13:14, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But, as we all know, hundreds of thousands of Wikipedia articles carry hatnotes specifically designed to prevent such misdirection. As a random example, Richard Montgomerie carries the hatnote, For those of a similar name, see Richard Montgomery (disambiguation), rather than having the page renamed to Richard Montgomerie (cricketer) and turning Richard Montgomerie into a redirect to the Richard Montgomery (disambiguation) page. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 14:03, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
None of the three people listed at Richard Montgomery (disambiguation) are called Richard Montgomerie. The primary topic for "Richard Montgomerie" is the cricketer, as shown by google searches. All three people under discussion here are called Frankie Howard. The primary topic for "Frankie Howard" is the comedian. Logically, your own argument supports my position. DrKay (talk) 16:31, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My own argument was simply intended to demonstrate that stand-alone entries do not require parenthetical qualifiers even if there are other similarly-sounding names. Perhaps a theoretical example might be more illustrative — the main title header for a disambiguation page is "Robert Samesurname". It lists eight men named "Robert Samesurname", one man named "Bob Samesurname", one man named "Bobby Samesurname", one man named "Bobbie Samesurname", one man named "Robbie Samesurname", one man named "Robby Samesurname" and one man named "Rob Samesurname". Additionally, there is, under "See also", one entry for a man named "Bobby Samesirname".
The eight men named "Robert Samesurname" are disambiguated via parenthetical qualifiers or middle initials, but we would need to read their articles to discover that one of them is also known as "Bob", another is also known as "Robbie" and still another is also known as "Rob". Some of them have more Google hits that those whose main headers actually bear those names, while "Bobby Samesirname" gets more Google hits than "Bobby Samesurname", thus requiring "Bobby Samesurname" to become a redirect to "Bobby Samesirname" and add a parenthetical qualifier as "Bobby Samesurname (footballer)".
I do not see consensus for such a burdensome arrangement nor do I see any stand-alone current entries being forced to adopt a parenthetical qualifier, instead of a hatnote, simply because other entries may have some secondary use of the initial entry's header. However, perhaps we should list this discussion at WikiProj Disambiguation to invite wider input. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:18, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:50, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone support the creation of a Frankie Howard disambiguation page listing Frankie Howard (footballer) and two redirects — Frankie Howard (politician) and Frankie Howard (comedian)? —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:50, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like a good idea. If editors disagree as to which article should be the destination for a title, a dab is often the best compromise. Some readers will be disappointed not to land on whichever article they were seeking, but at least they will be pointed clearly in the right direction. Certes (talk) 01:07, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Although the comedian is known by the name "Howerd", he was born "Howard" and it is common for people to type in "Frankie Howard" when searching for the comedian due to the rarity of the spelling "Howerd". The footballer never reached any especially high levels of the game, so I think things should stay as they are despite the fact that the two COMMONNAMEs are spelled differently. – PeeJay 16:51, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As we all know, that is the purpose of hatnotes — For the comedian, see Frankie Howerd. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:29, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As we all know that is the purpose of hatnotes – For the English footballer, see Frankie Howard (footballer). DrKay (talk) 13:23, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But this is not how we structure main title headers — if we did, there would be other examples of parenthetical qualifiers attached to unique headers. The sole individual whose WP:COMMONNAME header appears as "Frankie Howard" is the footballer. If "Frankie Howard" was also the common name of the comedian and the politician, then the headers of their articles would state "Frankie Howard". Nonetheless, a properly descriptive hatnote atop the footballer's page would make their entries readily accessible to users who might search for them under the name "Frankie Howard". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:19, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
WP:RM is now providing us with another example of a parenthetical qualifier attached to a unique header at Princess Maria of Romania (1870–1874). We do not use ambiguous titles for a minor topic. DrKay (talk) 18:14, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Minor or not, the footballer Frankie Howard is the sole individual among those listed in Wikipedia whose WP:COMMONNAME is "Frankie Howard". Frankie Howard (comedian) and Frankie Howard (politician) are redirects whose common name is not "Frankie Howard", although a compromise Frankie Howard dab page which includes men named "Frank Howard" or "Francis Howard" who had been nicknamed "Frankie", might be proposed for consensus. As for "Marie of Romania", we have had the Marie of Romania (disambiguation) page since May 2014. Names of that nature, as confirmed by such dab pages as Charles of England, Louis of France, Philip of Spain or Pope Urban are commonplace and not really comparable to ordinary names. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:28, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. When I created this article, it was obvious that the redirect to the comedian was a more appropriate use of the Frankie Howard page than this article would be, however popular the footballer was (and he was, very) among Brighton fans – regardless of the spelling of the comedian's stage name. Nothing's changed. It's an unusual case, and if following a rule is going to make it more difficult for more people to reach the article they're looking for than retaining the status quo, then in this unusual case we should follow policy and ignore the rule. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:48, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. A subject can be the primary topic for "A" even if its article is correctly located at "B". This is a prime example of the principle explained at WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT. BegbertBiggs (talk) 14:24, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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