Talk:Frank Zappa/Archive 10

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atheist claim

I checked the archives, saw some discussion on this. Anyway, there are two cites - one of which is merely quoting Howard Kaylan, and is him making a statement with no background to it and Frank is not here to dispute it. The other is Nugent's book, which I haven't read, but I don't think he interviewed Zappa. There is no claim to atheism in any interview the Zappa that I have ever read. In fact, in 1984, during a radio interview with Frank Zappa (the first half - the 2nd half was with Ernest Borgnine), one of the callers stated "Are you an atheist, Frank? I am ..... " and started into some diatribe that the interview MC tried to curtail. Frank's words were, " ... Well, I wouldn't say that." In the same interview, a woman called in and wanted to ask Gail Zappa what it was like being married to him. Frank said hold on, I'll get her, and Gail responded briefly " ... it's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it." I cannot remember that far back what network this was - it was the era of the "Night Flight" rock late-nite tv show, if that, and the Gail Zappa interlude, can help any Zappa-fanatic find it in their personal recordings. I used to have it on cassette, long gone now. He had major issues with organized religion in any form, and was not outwardly "spiritual" - and even a song such as Dumb All Over is not necessarily atheist - it's just very critical of people taking religious writings to violent extremes, and also shows a cynic's view of a diety. As was stated in a previous discussion, his "The Real Frank Zappa Book" does not specifically address this, neither does any article I have that featured him that I have going back to 1968, nor does "The Negative ... Poodle Play" nor "No Commercial Potential." I think we need to be careful with biographers who are not using direct quotes by Frank, or someone very in-the-know - fellow musicians giving their rap about him is not proof. My PERSONAL impression from that radio interview was he had a sort of nebulous idea of "something" out there, but for him, ceremony and so forth were not part of how he would address a supreme being.HammerFilmFan (talk) 00:49, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

He wasn't an atheist in any meaningful sense of the word. Calling Zappa an atheist is like saying Gandhi was a poor basketball player. It's maybe literally true in some sense but it's not meaningful or helpful. It's not meaningful or helpful because Zappa was not interested in metaphysical issues. He didn't address religious issues at all in The Real Frank Zappa Book and so forth. Nor in his many lyrics AFAIK. He could have if he'd wanted to but he didn't.

He had a low tolerance for nonsense, was no prude, and was sometimes sardonic, but that doesn't make him an atheist. I'd like to see a clear quote from him saying that he was a committed materialist or didn't believe in God, deities, a supernatural plane, spiritual life separate from the material world, or that sort of thing, and not just an off-the-cuff remark but something showing that he'd given the matter at least a bit of thought (if someone said "Thank Christ I bought my condo before the market bubble" we don't write that that person was a Christian and so forth).

Got one? Otherwise let's not characterize him as an atheist. Herostratus (talk) 03:31, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Watson's book (Poodle Play) has a memo from Zappa where he refers to God as "energy" but in the context of making music ... Perhaps it would be better to list him as agnostic? But in any event, the bold statement about him being an atheist should go, I think. Without direct quotes from Zappa, or Gail, or his children as witnesses, biographers are writing about themselves in this regard, in my opinion. We could keep Kaylan's quote, but should state he claimed, or according to, rather than accept it as a fact. To my knowledge, during Zappa's lifetime, only two books in English were written about him, No Commercial Potential and The Negative Dalectics of Poodle Play, and only Ben Watson ever read large sections of his text to Frank prior to publishing it - these would be the books I would turn to on this subject, and any radio or magazine interviews, plus TRFZB; post-mortem opinions on Zappa's specific spriritual beliefs that are not based on direct quotes are hazardous. HammerFilmFan (talk) 16:36, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

P.S. - will the Canadian anon ip that recently tried to edit the article to the effect that Zappa was not an atheist, please cite the interview you refer to? Also, did that interview include Gail Sloatman Zappa during a short part of it? Thanks. HammerFilmFan (talk) 17:53, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Here is the interview. Zappa is asked if he belongs to any religious organization and he says no, but when asked if he is 'religious', he says yes (and goes on to explain how he lives out his religious beliefs): 99.229.213.1 (talk) 08:33, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

References

Could we get a time stamp on that? I don't want to sit through the whole thing. (I'm skeptical that this could be used as a reference -- I don't know if they're flat forbidden by our rules, but videos make very poor references because 1) they're not available to people who are reading a hard copy or who otherwise can't view videos, 2) they're not searchable, 3) in the case of YouTube anybody can upload a (fake) video (although that's not likely to be the case here). But even if not usable as a reference it's certainly sufficient to remove the statement "Zappa was an atheist" from the article, assuming that the above poster's chacterization of Zappa as saying "yes" is accurate. So let's do that.) Herostratus (talk) 13:21, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Splitting navigation box for Zappa discography

{{Frank Zappa}} is not very aesthetically pleasing. Does anyone else think something should be done in the same vein as {{The Beatles albums}} and {{The Beatles singles}}?--Ilovetopaint (talk) 01:19, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

It looks pleasing to me. Also note that as far as content is concerned—i.e. what goes where—, Zappa's discography is a hard one to play. See Template_talk:Frank_Zappa#RFC and the places it points to, a.o. Talk:Frank Zappa/Archive 7#Zappa Template and Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_24#Frank_Zappa_discography.2C_Template:Frank_Zappa. - DVdm (talk) 06:54, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, but it's very cluttered navbox with dozens of links to "miscellaneous" articles only because the box would reach an unbearable height if, for example, every bootleg/tribute/compilation was delegated to its own section. I think {{Frank Zappa albums}} and {{Frank Zappa singles}} are desirable. The album template could look something like this

--Ilovetopaint (talk) 05:44, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Musical artist versus person infobox

Is there any actual objections to including this as the article's infobox template? Zappa had more occupations than being a performing artist. Just taking from the lede:

• [He] was an American musician, bandleader, songwriter, composer, recording engineer, record producer, and film director.
• He also directed feature-length films and music videos, and designed album covers.
• He was a strident critic of mainstream education and organized religion, and a forthright and passionate advocate for freedom of speech, self-education, political participation and the abolition of censorship.

In addition, the article's contents paint him as a(n)

• Businessman:
  • During the late 1960s, Zappa continued to develop the business sides of his career. He and Herb Cohen formed the Bizarre Records and Straight Records labels, distributed by Warner Bros. Records, as ventures to aid the funding of projects and to increase creative control.
  • many additional self-owned record labels
• Actor:
  • In 1967 and 1968, Zappa made two appearances with the Monkees. The first appearance was on an episode of their TV series, "The Monkees Blow Their Minds", where he plays Mike Nesmith and Nesmith plays him.
  • Zappa later expanded on his television appearances in a non-musical role. He was an actor or voice artist in episodes of Shelley Duvall's Faerie Tale Theatre, Miami Vice and The Ren and Stimpy Show.
• Filmmaker:
  • Category:Films directed by Frank Zappa
  • Co-directed by Zappa and Tony Palmer, [200 Motels] was filmed in a week at Pinewood Studios outside London. ... It was the first feature film photographed on videotape and transferred to 35 mm film, a process which allowed for novel visual effects
  • On December 21, 1979, Zappa's movie Baby Snakes premiered in New York. ... It also contained several extraordinary sequences of clay animation by Bruce Bickford who had earlier provided animation sequences to Zappa for a 1974 TV special (which became available on the 1982 video The Dub Room Special). The movie did not do well in theatrical distribution, but won the Premier Grand Prix at the First International Music Festival in Paris in 1981
• Political activist
  • See the entire section devoted to Zappa's politics and religion
  • In early 1990, Zappa visited Czechoslovakia at the request of President Václav Havel. Havel designated him as Czechoslovakia's "Special Ambassador to the West on Trade, Culture and Tourism"
  • Zappa also planned to develop an international consulting enterprise to facilitate trade between the former Eastern Bloc and Western businesses.
• Writer
  • The Real Frank Zappa Book
  • Them Or Us (The Book)

Although he was mainly a composer/instrumentalist, the article already demonstrates that he was notable for several other endeavors. Also, in response to "'musician' is not a religion", whatever counts as a religion is decided not by us, but by the article's content, and the article just happens to state: On Dweezil’s birth certificate, for father's religion Zappa put “musician”. --Ilovetopaint (talk) 20:10, 27 March 2015 (UTC)