Talk:Frank Ryan (Irish republican)

Ryan's time in Germany

The details I added came from Irish Secrets by Mark M. Hull. I realise there are quotes and discussions appearing elsewhere that could be added from Ryan's time in Germany- please add them.

German Intelligence operations in Ireland

My specific interest is Imperial/Weimar/Nazi German Intelligence operations in Ireland 1900-1945 and I will try to fill in some of those stub 'Operation' articles as soon as possible.

Fluffy999 23:05, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Well done on fleshing out this article in these areas. I wonder, though, would you be able to also improve its coverage of the remainder of Ryan's career? I know this may not be your particular interest, but I can't help feeling that the article is now slightly unbalanced in its focus on the Spain/WWII period, when Ryan's activities on the Republican left between 1929 and 1936 are also of importance. Obviously the best way to fix this would be to expand the rest of the article. I would be delighted to do this myself, but I'm about 4000 miles from the nearest library that's likely to have any information on the topic so can't! Palmiro | Talk 15:19, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, yes I see the problem. Could perhaps get around to it sometime after I finish the Abwehr IRA stuff- i've about 12 more articles to write on that, then i will be good to go. Fluffy999 18:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I will not be responding to messages left on my talkpage or on pages for articles I have worked on. Will no longer be contributing to wikipedia. Thank you. Fluffy999 13:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

"Liam"

I've read somewhere that Ryan's story was the basis for the backstory of "Liam" in the book adaptation of the movie "The Eagle has Landed." Anyone have a source about that?

is it worth mentioning that frank ryan appears in a pogues song?

I'm confused by this man's ideology. How could a man who fought against Franco's forces in the Spanish Civil War, end up (seemingly) on the side of the Nazis? Incidentally, this is the second time I have posted this question. On the first occasion it was deleted. I wonder why? Millbanks 22:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting enigma, but this is not the place to speculate, although the some of the sources most probably have. cckkab (talk) 08:46, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

No, this isn't the place to speculate; this IS the place to point out the glaring hole in the article as it stands. This "enigma" cries out for explanation! Spark240 (talk) 15:10, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Seán Cronin bio

I have his biography, written by Seán Cronin, with a forward by Peadar O'Donnell, and it's clear from this (and other articles I've read about that period, both in English and in German by German participants in these events) that Ryan gave very little support to the Nazis at any stage, and only then if it meant an opportunity to get back to Ireland (which IMHO seems to have been his main aim). He did keep up contact with people he had known from Ireland, but that doesn't mean he cooperated with them in political matters or shared their beliefs, and it was thanks to them that he managed to survive as long as he did. If he wanted to, he could have done a lot to support the Nazis, but he obviously did not. His former comrades from Ireland and Spain have always held him in the highest regard. Some of the assertions in the article have no citations, so it's difficult to know where they came from. I have already provided citations for material I have. Hohenloh ⁺ 18:51, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

This is all very naive. Between the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact in August 1939 and Operation Barbarossa in June 1941 the Nazis and Communists were allied in many ways, and so Ryan's position was not anomalous. It was merely embarrassing to recall his collaboration after 1945. A biography by Seán Cronin would not pass WP:NPOV or WP:V, as SC was himself an IRA man. So, Ryan was just another control freak.Red Hurley (talk) 16:41, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Ryan was never a member of the Communist Party, so was not bound by the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. He was also not a member of the IRA from 1934. When Cronin wrote the biography he was Washington Correspondent of the Irish Times, holding degrees in political science from New York University and the New School for Social Research. The biography is meticulously researched and contains copious citations and notes from political documents, newspapers, private papers and letters, and interviews. I suggest you read it. Hohenloh ⁺ 02:43, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Ryan was in an interesting place, but it's well established that the International Brigades in Spain were under communist control from late 1936 and he went along with that. After Barbarossa he had every opportunity for over a year to leave Nazi Germany via Vichy France and Portugal, as many did, but decided to stay put. Statements by the likes of Clissman, a Nazi spy, or Francis Stuart, don't hpld any water - special pleading after the event. You have to rise above the minutiae of Cronin's work and look at what else was happening in Western Europe at the time, and on that basis Ryan most certainly was a collaborator. He was too intelligent not to know what he was doing. Ryan was in the same boat as Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, but much less successful.Red Hurley (talk) 11:20, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree Hohenloh the Cronin biography is very detaild. Red Hurley while you post is intresting, supporting references help a lot. --Domer48_'fenian' 11:35, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Plenty of references at Collaboration with the Axis Powers during World War II. You didn't have to be a card-carrying party member to be a collaborator - it could take many forms, as was proved by Ryan's career.Red Hurley (talk) 11:52, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Wiki is not considered a reference? So, could you possibly cite one of the references on the Collaboration with the Axis Powers during World War II which would support your comments here? Thanks, --Domer48_'fenian' 11:59, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

By that I meant that the definition of collaborator is wide, and the references to that article explain the definition. I believe that Ryan fits into the category - he even had an Abwehr name; quote: "Ryan was given the cover name "Richard II" (Russell had been "Richard I")[17], and he was listed in the Abwehr (Intelligence) files as "Frank Richard"." I don't know what more proof any reasonable encyclopedia reader would need. How many other Irish people had Abwehr cover names? Very few I believe. But Cronin should be kept as a reference for the view that he was not a collaborator, and let people make up their minds.Red Hurley (talk) 12:20, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. O Fenian (talk) 17:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

You are right, he was not an active collaborator. No wonder Germany lost the war, signing up agents like him.Red Hurley (talk) 11:32, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Seán Cronin has his own page on Wikipedia, and as an ex-IRA Chief of Staff he can hardly be considered a completely neutral source.86.42.215.179 (talk) 13:53, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Early life and references vetting

Hi guys, I just created the French version of this article. It's largely a translation of this one, so thank you for your great work. I did change a few things though, mainly to clarify the context which is less known to native French speakers, but also regarding sources. Specifically, I think this article could benefit from three things:

• a better use of this reference would improve the precision of Ryan's early life account
• I found a nice, non-partisan account of historiography here, and there are pictures and even a movie as well
• I don't know about the reference criteria differences between WP:en and WP:fr, but on the "positive" side of historical judgement, this one is from a more established source than irelandscw (not to mention Indymedia boards)

I already spent a lot of time translating, reading connected articles and fr-wikifying for the French version, and as a non-native speaker I don't feel comfortable contributing here so that's up to you but I wanted to give something back. French regards -- Thigre (talk) 09:31, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Collaborator

Dr Niall Keogh's "Con Cremin - Ireland's wartime diplomat" states at P 78, under the heading "Irish Nationals collaborating with the Nazis" that "The three most prominent of these nationals were Francis Stuart, Frank Ryan and Charles Bewley". I therefore propose to categorise him under "Irish collaborators with Nazi Germany". Alekksandr (talk) 21:08, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Now done. Alekksandr (talk) 19:01, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Allegiance

Continually posting a unproven allegation is improper at best. Ryan had no allegiance to Nazi Germany. Read the article and see a referenced item that says he refused to give the Fascists salute and to sing their anthem. He was a socialist and fought against fascism in Spain (wounded twice). He was also fighting on the Republican side during the Irish Civil War. His allegiance was to the Irish Republic not Nazi Germany. You cite no source and leave no Edit Summary...just slap in the Nazi flag. Please stop or find reliable sources that show Ryans allegiance to Nazi Germany.Palisades1 (talk) 20:57, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

The flags are most likely against MOS:INFOBOXFLAG, however allegiance is not a parameter indicating "loyalty", it's an indicator of military forces served. For example, Kuwasi Balagoon's infobox uses the allegiance to show that the subject once served in the US Army. However, the subject of the article later became a total opponent of the US state. Benedict Arnold's allegiance parameter is a better and much more high profile example: It notes that he served both the US and Great Britain, having switched sides during the American Revolution.

Whether Ryan was loyal/sympathetic or not to Nazi Germany is irrelevant as far as the allegiance parameter is considered. It's only purpose is to indicate his military history. So Nazi Germany being listed in his allegiance parameter appears to me to be correct. CeltBrowne (talk) 16:57, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. In MOS/Icons it states "Flag icons lead to unnecessary disputes when over-used." That seems to be the case here.Palisades1 (talk) 18:01, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

2A00:23C7:CD84:7301:111C:580F:CBE5:7C43 continues to insert Nazi Germany as Ryans country of allegiance. 2A00:23C7:CD84:7301:111C:580F:CBE5:7C43 has never included a Edit Summary and has never joined in the discussion on Talk Page. In addition, the accusation is baseless. The referenced quote from the article is clear on Ryans allegiance:"...the FBI (they were looking for Sean Russell). They said they were aware of Ryan's "anti-Fascist credentials" and although due to his contacts and knowledge of languages would be useful to "the enemy", they did not believe he would ever work for Fascism."[27] If reliable information exists that proves Ryans allegiance to Nazi Germany it should be inserted. If that information does not exist the article should not reflect Ryans allegiance to Nazi Germany.Palisades1 (talk) 16:50, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

+1 Agree. ——Serial 17:12, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping El_C, apologies I was in the land of nod when you called  :) and thanks to Chris for fielding it. A little peace and quiet here for a bit, then! ——Serial 13:05, 24 February 2024 (UTC)