Talk:Frank Roper (artist)

List of works

@Michaelm70: while I appreciate the work that may have gone in to preparing the list of works, in my view it has become excessive and overweight for this article. This is not the place for a Catalogue raisonné, and listing minor works such as light fittings seems out of place.

Looking at other articles on sculptors, Henry Moore, Auguste Rodin, Henri Gaudier-Brzeska, Elisabeth Frink and Maggi Hambling have no list of works. Constantin Brâncuși has a short list. The closet I have found to our list is Barbara Hepworth, but her list doesn't have as much detail as ours.

One option is to spin off a separate List of works by Frank Roper, along the lines of List of works by Antoine Bourdelle and List of works by James Pradier. This is often done for composers but rarely for visual artists. Editors might take the view that Roper is not sufficiently prominent to merit a separate list of works.

I propose that we cut the list in this article down to the 10 or 20 most noteworthy works, roughly as it was in the version on 4 December 2014 You could move the existing list to a separate list article (ask me if you need help), but other editors may nominate this for deletion, see WP:LISTN. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:46, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I tend to agree that the list is an overload of information. I'd be more comfortable with listing notable works that have been published or highlighted by expert sources, rather than church websites or leaflets. Because Michaelm70 is a relative of the subject he has an understandable passion, so I'd hope he'd know of any reputable published book, magazine, journal or newspaper sources. Sionk (talk) 22:43, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes I think it makes sense to include a shortened list of notable work. I'll work on a proposed shorter list over the next week or so. I would very much like to retain the full list in a seperate article and we can create this at the same time as publishing the shortened notable works list. This is now the most complete and accurate list of Roper's ecclesiastical work and I'm hoping it can continue to expand with reliable sources. Interesting that 'lists of works' is common for composers but not visual artists - there doesn't seem to be much logic in that, but let's see what the editors say. Michaelm70 (talk) 08:42, 12 June 2020 (GMT)

I’ve been considering the ‘notable’ works list. It was interesting to read the paragraphs about Roper in the book 'Biblical Art from Wales', which notes that "it is almost impossible to select work from his corpus" (the book picks four, all in the Peter Leech book).

I think the best sources are 'The Religious Art of Frank Roper' (Leech), Roper's entry in 'Post War to Post Modern: A Dictionary of Artists in Wales', the Frank Roper biography in 'Art and Christianity Enquiry' and three more recent articles: Rosemary Markham in the Church Times (1994), Jan Gould in 'Art and Christianity' (issue 98, 2019) and the Guarding obituary by Wakelin (2000). Other sources proved less helpful for this task: The Arts in Wales (1950-1975, a book by the Welsh Arts Council and the obituary by Ceri Thomas in Planet. I have ordered a 1992 edition of 'New Welsh Review', which includes another article on Roper by Rosemary Markham, but it's taking a while to arrive.

The list below is in the default order of the Wikipedia table. I started with the Peter Leech book ('PL') and added others from the sources above that were not mentioned by him. 'JG' is Jan Gould’s article, 'RM' is Markham in the Church Times, 'ACE' is 'Arts and Christianity Enquiry', 'DAW' is 'Dictionary of Artists in Wales', 'PW' is Peter Wakelin in the Guardian.

I think this could be a good notable works list, showing the range of his work. All the cathedrals are mentioned (although see note below), plus the five churches where there’s multiple examples of his work (St Martin's, Roath; Christ Church, Roath Park; St Saviour's, Splott; St Peter's, Chippenham and Church of the Resurrection in Ely, home of the 'Frank Roper Centre'). St Mary's in Hunslet Leeds would also have been in this category but has been demolished. It's odd that none of the sources mention the reredos at All Saints, Branston.

In terms of the cathedrals, the 'Discovering Frank Roper' list also mentions works at Chester, Southwark and Newport (St Woolos). I have not yet been able to verify Chester and Southwark. The window in St Woolos is now in storage at the cathedral due to its poor condition.

If you think this is a sensible list I will proceed with drafting the new section. Once we’re happy with it I can make it live and move the table to a new article.

PL: Peterborough Cathedral (crucifix suspended above alter)

PL: Durham Cathedral (lettering for the tomb of St Bede)

PL: Stoke Christian Centre, Plymouth (long frieze window)

PL: St Martin-le-Grand, York (last supper reredos)

PL: Wells Cathedral (nativity figures)

PL: St Peter's, Chippenham (comprehensive glass scheme)

JG: Church of the Resurrection, Ely, Cardiff (crucifix and furnishings)

RM: St Peter's, Fairwater, Cardiff (Vine Christ sculpture – which she selected as "a fine example of his sculpture in a parish church")

PL: St Dyfrig & St Samson, Grangetown, Cardiff (crucifix in churchyard)

PL: St Denys Church, Lisvane, Cardiff (Christ figure reredos)

PL: Llandaff Cathedral (Lady Chapel reredos flowers, St Teilo frieze, bronze St Francis sculpture)

PL: Christ Church, Roath Park, Cardiff (crucifix in forecourt, Christ in Majesty sculpture, plus multiple furnishings)

PL: St Martin's Church, Roath, Cardiff (wood carving of St Martin and the Beggar, stations of the cross)

PL: St Augustine's, Romney, Cardiff (Virgin and Child glass panel)

ACE: St Saviour's, Splott, Cardiff (two windows and stations of the cross sculptures)

PL: Church of Lady Queen of Peace, Newcastle Emlyn (resurrection window and stations of the cross windows (ACE))

ACE: Church of St Mary, Margam, Neath Port Talbot (aluminium hanging rood)

PL: St Davids Cathedral, Pembrokeshire (Lady Chapel screen)

PL: St Mary's Church, Talbenny, Pembrokeshire (stained glass windows)

PL: St Issui's, Patrishow, Powys (sculpture of St Issui)

PL: Christ Church, Ynysybwl, Rhondda Cynon Taf (window of Christ surrounded by thorns)

PL: St Michael and All Angels, Michaelston-le-Pit (window of seasons in flowers)

PL: Church of St Mary, Wenvoe (Virgin and Child window)

Not yet listed on Wikipedia

DAW: St Matthew's Church, Treorchy (not sure this should be included yet as I have found no further published details, although Roper’s records list this is a crucifix)

PW and RM: The Bishop, National Library of Wales, Aberystwyth

Michaelm70 (talk) 13:58, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

That would be 25 entries. That would be just about ok if there is not a separate list article, but probably too many if there is.

It would be good to expand it to cover non-ecclesiastical works. There are two in National Museum Wales[1] and two in Newport Museum and Art Gallery [2], but it is unclear whether these all count as 'major works".

I found a few potential sources:

• https://www.methodist.org.uk/search-results/?query=Frank+Roper four stations of the cross, unclear where these are located
• http://centenary.sgt.org/Ab-AlunAdams.htm Abstract of a 2003 conference paper: The "Stained Glass" of Frank Roper: Issues of Restoration by Alun Adams. Not much in the abstract, but there might be more in the paper if it was published and you can track it down.
• https://www.notjusthockney.info/roper-frank/ Does not look like a reliable source, but it cites the following book which would be:
• Wollen, Roger (2003). Catalogue of the Methodist Church Collection of Modern Christian Art : with an account of the Collection's history. Oxford: Trustees of the Methodist Collection of Modern Christian Art. ISBN 0953813517.
• https://auctions.roseberys.co.uk/m/lot-details/index/catalog/219/lot/92820 This auctioneer's notice is intriguing, although it is probably not a reliable source. It is probably pasted from a reference book. Can you confirm the collaboration with Karlheinz Stockhausen?

Verbcatcher (talk) 07:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I see that the Guardian obit mentions the Stockhausen connection; we should mention this as his is a major composer, and it would help to flesh out our coverage of Frank's secular work. The Guardian also mentions the sculpture in the National Library (which I was unable to find on their website). Here are two more sources:

• https://casw.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/CASW-Newsletter-20151.pdf
• https://s3.amazonaws.com/cinw/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/04/Croeso-Spring-2019-v5.pdf

Verbcatcher (talk) 08:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I can suggest a shorter list and include one or two non-church work examples that are in national collections. How long should it be do you think so that people are more comfortable with a seperate list? A number of artcles and books mention the fact that there isn't a reliable list of his works, so I do think the table we've created will be appreciated.

Thanks for the sources. I was aware of them and actually have the Wollen book on order. I'll see if I can get hold of the 2003 conference paper (did you notice this existing similar link on the page: https://cambridge2019.sgt.org/ab-hh-christianryan).

I have been researching reliable sources for a short section on his non-ecclesiastical work, which would mention his collaboration with Stockhausen. The horse is on display here at the National Library: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/18882963094. I did come across a more reliabe source a while ago but can't find it right now. Michaelm70 (talk) 09:13, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm unsure what the maximum list length in the article should be; it is a matter of editorial judgement and there are probably no formal guidelines. We can use similar articles as models. If there is a separate list article then it should be substantially different from the list in the biographical article.

The horse sculpture is in the National Museum, not the National Library. The National Library has a sculpture of a bishop (unless they have mislaid it). This was presented to the library in 1973 by the Contemporary Art Society for Wales.[3][4]. I remember seeing the work which reminded me of an insect. Should it be classified as 'ecclesiastical'? Verbcatcher (talk) 09:46, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Sculptor Frank Roper creating a polystyrene model.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:59, 27 January 2021 (UTC)