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Archive 1

Founding Mattachine Society?

This article says Kameny founded the Mattachine Society with Jack Nichols, making no mention of Harry Hay. But the Mattachine Society article says it was founded by "Harry Hay with a small group of friends". Which is right? Dybryd 01:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The 'Mattachine Society of Washington' is not the same as the 'Mattachine Society', see e.g. [1] [2]; Jutta —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.127.157.81 (talk) 04:57, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

You also make no mention of Barbara Gittings or Kay Layhusen who were also co-founders. Jack Nichols was a close personal friend of mine and he would have wanted them mentioned as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.202.143.228 (talk) 19:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

"Bestiality" claim

I've removed a claim that as of 2008 Kameny supports bestiality; the claim, which has gained some currency on right-wing websites, appears to be based on a single claim of an organization having received an e-mail from him. Until there is a reliable news source (as opposed to an editorial clearly based on the organization's claims), the statement has no place in the article. Robertissimo (talk) 18:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I completely can't understand why this quotation was removed. Why are you denying this reliable source? In mail to AFTAH he clearly approoved bestiality.

Pic

Here's another free image that can be added (once the article is expanded). APK coffee talk 13:58, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Parentage

I'm a genealogy nut. I can't find *anything* out there which names Kameney's parents. Has anyone else seen anything? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.124.166.10 (talk) 11:24, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about the above. I know that I'm too lazy to log in, but normally I at least sign. The only thing that comes remotely close which I have been able to find is https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/1Y5K-Q81/p_10390879618. 174.124.166.10 (talk) 11:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)Pink Muslimah

Kameny supporting bestiality

A third-party researcher, Robert Reilly, confirmed the veracity of this claim. Reilly is former Senior Advisor for Information Strategy at the Dept of Defense and former Director of Voice of America. I recommend the following be added:

In 2008, in a letter to Americans for Truth about Homosexuality, Kameny wrote, "Let us have more and better enjoyment of more and better sexual perversions, by whatever definition, by more and more consenting adults...If bestiality with consenting animals provides happiness to some people, let them pursue their happiness. That is Americanism in action."

Reilly, Robert. Making Gay Okay. San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2014. Page 4.

You don't have a reliable source for this. Reilly working for the DoD doesn't automatically make anything he says in any venue true. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 12:56, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
No, of course not. But it does make him a reliable source, whose research was published by another reliable source, Ignatius Press. He is Senior Fellow for Strategic Communication at the American Foreign Policy Council, a former senior White House official, former national director and president of the Intercollegiate Studies Institute, and former professor at National Defense University. He also studied at Georgetown University and Claremont Graduate School. He has been published by University Press of America, a subsidiary of Rowman & Littlefield and Catholic University of America Press, to name a few.
In short, he is a reliable source. But don't take my word for it. See his Wikipedia page: Robert R. Reilly
Whether he is right or wrong on ideological grounds, that's another question. And not one for wikieditors to decide.Defensor1956 (talk) 17:21, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Ignatius Press is definitely not blanket reliable, and at any rate, as I have already pointed out, they just cite the obviously-unreliable "Americans for Truth About Homosexuality." For all the evidence we have, AFTAH could have simply made this entire thing up, and from what we know about AFTAH, it's pretty likely. Whether or not Reilly has published things with publishers that are reliable is immaterial, because the cited claim was not one of those things. Ideology has nothing to do with it - we simply can't verify this claim. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:29, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Ignatius Press and Robert Reilly are as blanket reliable as the Southern Poverty Law Center. To reference another wiki discussion, I don't recall you begging for third-party verification of SPLC's claim that the Catholic Family and Human Rights Institute "praised" Scott Lively. The fact that a reliable source made this claim in a report was sufficient for you. Why the double-standard? If you prefer, we can emulate our resolution from that page and simply indicate that Robert Reilly, in a book published by Ignatius Press, stated as credible the claim that Kameny sent that email to AFTAH. Would that be an acceptable compromise? 69.143.176.25 (talk) 03:56, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Just to begin with publishers are not sources. Sources are authoritative scholars, journalists, scientists, etc. Publishers are merely entities that make sources available. The Kameny papers are available at the Library of Congress. Perhaps someday historians will sort this matter out by referencing primary sources and discussing this. Here at Wiki we are editors creating an encyclopedia based mostly on tertiary and sometimes secondary sources. If indeed Kameny advocated this position it will be verified by scholars. At that time it would be appropriate to update this biographical piece. Robert Reilly for all his expertise in foreign affairs most likely doesn't come up to the standard of a 20th century historian. I would agree with Roscelese that AFTAH is itself unreliable in this matter coupled with the fact that their claim is based on a email. Clearly emails are to say the least flimsy as primary source material given that it is so difficult to trace them. Frank Kameny is recognized widely for his work in civil rights and for his advocacy for the District of Columbia claims such as this must be thoroughly vetted before being added to this biography. Anything less would leave Wiki and its editors open to accusations of calumny. Pjefts (talk) 15:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

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