Talk:Frank Herbert's Children of Dune

Differences from the novels

Perhaps a note is in order about where this was *not* like the novels. For example, the twins in the novel were 9, but James McAvoy was 24 when the miniseries was produced. (A fairly major change, I'd say, even if it was necessary.)

It is already mentioned in the article text that the miniseries changed the age of the twins from 9 years old to 16 years old. James, though 24 at the time, was playing a 16-year-old. Noelle De Guzman 13:31, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I really don't think the type of minutiae exhibited in this section is neccessary. The aging of the twins is definitely notable, but things like the method of Alia's suicide is just nitpicking, especially since 95% of the on-screen deaths were totally different to how they were in the books, just as 95% of the story was altered in the transition to the screen. I honestly don't think there's a need for the section to exist. Aside from the twins' age, everything is just the sort of thing you expect from any adaptation.

I supposed Wensicia/Irulan's age difference could be borderline notable, but it's a minor point that has no real bearing on the story (in either medium) and should be taken with a grain of salt.

I find it incredibly surreal to dwell on such irrelevant details while much more glaring alterations (Wensicia's insertion into the Dune Messiah storyline, Hayt's obliviousness to his purpose, various other things) are ignored completely. Either way, as the series is openly an adaptation, not a translation, I don't think either type of subject is really neccessary.--Gwilym 11:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I kind of agree with you, however I didn't add the information about the twins' ages or the method af Alia's death. It was already incorporated into the synopsis and I pulled it out into it's own section, admittedly to make the articles on the David Lynch film, the Dune miniseries and this one consistent. I think the original Dune miniseries does have more legitimate use of the section.

That said, I did assume that more could be added to this section, like Wensicia being involved in the Duncan ghola murder plot, either by someone else or myself when I got around to it. Of course, you make a good point that these tiny differences are to be expected. But the diehard fans really love that stuff, so I guess it's very subjective what is notbale and what's not. I didn't understand at first why everybody on Wikipedia was always arguing about notability, but now I think I get it! TAnthony 17:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've added in the major parts of how Duncan's story was changed. I hope it reads well, it was a bastard to put into words. Feel free to tweak it.

And just out of interest (nothing to do with the article) - does anybody know what Paul is doing during that montage at the end of part one? I can't figure out that stance at all.--Gwilym 09:31, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Redux

I have removed the entire "Departures from the novels" section here and again here because, as I noted in my edit summary, they remain completely unsourced, and none of them are particularly notable or diverge from Herbert's general vision. Some changes are to be expected in any adaptation to film or TV to make things clearer to the viewer, heighten drama or suspense, or make the story fit into the finite screen time provided. The alterations made in this case appear minor and trivial. By all means, if there is some departure notable enough to be mentioned in a reputable review of the miniseries or some other appropriate source (as was the case with Irulan's expanded role in the first miniseries), then by all means presnt it here.— TAnthony^Talk 22:49, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for awesomely written bio on "Dune" and "Children of Dune." I saw them both years ago. Sadly, Sci-fi plays "Dune" from time to time, but I have yet to see the follow up three part "Children of Dune" ever shown again. I have DVR on automatic record if it's ever shown across all channels. Years go by and I'm starting to think my only recourse is to buy a DVD if I can. Would it be possible if you are aware of where I could hunt down a copy of Frank Herbert's "Children of Dune" to let me know how? My email is: jofbrockton@gmail.com.. Thanks in advance for any assistance you might render me in my quest to view this favorite movie. Sincerely, John P. Anderson George A. Hamilton (talk) 17:58, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Running Time?

The infobox says the running time is 266 minutes, but I've watched the story in 2x95 (approximately) minutes. Is the 266 time including commercial breaks? Xavius, the Satyr Lord (talk) 20:14, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Alternate Versions

Information needs to be added to address the different versions of this miniseries. IMDB has comprehensive information on this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0142032/alternateversions - GeiwTeol 23:35, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

IMDb is not a reliable source.— TAnthony^Talk 17:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Soundtrack section

The lyrics of the track "Inama Nushif," sung by Azam Ali,[6] are entirely in the fictional Fremen language, which Tyler pieced together from Fremen words and phrases appearing throughout Herbert's series of Dune novels.

This is untrue. Tyler plagiarized the lyrics from a poem in the Fremen language article by Alan S. Kaye and John Quijada in The Dune Encyclopedia. Only two words in the lyrics (bakka, "the weeper" [but not used with that meaning], and alia) appear anywhere in Frank Herbert's Dune books. --SandChigger (talk) 03:50, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

This is original research, so I'm not proposing that it be added to the article, but I think it should be sufficient to question the inclusion of the story about Tyler going through the books and creating the lyrics on his own. The following page shows a comparison of Tyler's Fremen "Inama Nushif" lyrics and the Kaye & Quijada translation in the DE: http://encyclopedia.hairyticksofdune.net/tylerplagiarism.html --SandChigger (talk) 14:25, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't know why Tyler's claim remained on the page for so long. He seems to have withdrawn his claim from his blog; I've removed reference to it. Shankarsivarajan (talk) 06:32, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I found an archived version of the BrianTyler.com page, and it is actually a quote attributed to Greg Yaitanes who says that Tyler found the Fremen words in the novels:

Tyler, Brian; Yaitanes, Greg (2006). "Discography: Children of Dune". BrianTyler.com. Archived from the original on February 12, 2010. Retrieved June 18, 2015. Brian actually searched through Herbert's books and deciphered enough of the fictional Fremen language to write this powerful song.

So, Tyler wasn't necessarily making the claim himself explicitly (though he publicized Yaitanes claim by copying it on his site), and one could argue that Yaitanes is misspeaking because he does not know/understand that the Dune Encyclopedia was not written by Herbert, and/or doesn't know/realize Tyler used it. Tyler may or may not have realized the DE was fanfic but we don't have a reliable source at the moment in which he says where he got the words.

To answer your comment on my talk page, self-published sources like this can be used/considered reliable when individuals are giving information about themselves that is reasonable ("neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim", among other restrictions, see WP:SELFSOURCE). First of all I'd like to identify if this quote is from an interview that can be found with a reliable source, as Tyler copying it on his own site without a source waters down its reliability. Assuming we end up being comfortable with the statement's reliability, we could say "Yaitanes claims that Tyler blah blah" but you always have to be careful that you're wording isn't casting unsourced doubt on the direct quote. The original research seems to show clearly that the DE was the primary source for the lyrics though, so perhaps there is something reliable out there we can use as a source, even if it's just a reliable source commenting on the fact that some doubt/controversy exists. Though again, it doesn't seem like Tyler has said in public that he only used Herbert's novels.— TAnthony^Talk 14:56, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I should add, after giving a cursory look at the HairyTicks page, that I don't know that I would call this situation plagiarism or even controversial. If I understand correctly, the words are actual Egyptian Arabic with some altered spellings? Tyler (admittedly) lifted some word combinations, but it doesn't seem like he lifted the Kaye & Quijada translations. And even so, it might be a nonissue based on the status of the rights. The DE was a derivative work originally published by Berkley/Putnam, which was publishing the Dune sequels at the time, and Herbert approved it. So we know it was somehow tied to the franchise though we obviously don't know the details of any licensing agreements, and we don't know who may or may not actually hold the rights to it now. This miniseries production licensed the rights to the novel series and presumably not the DE specifically, but if the Herbert Estate has the ability to block reprinting of the DE then there is at least the implication that they have some rights or influence beyond the source material. But we may never know.— TAnthony^Talk 18:14, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I understand that Tyler could have legally used the lyrics directly from DE , and I admit that calling it plagiarism might have been excessive, but my problem was that, until I edited this page, it was the only place, other than comments on YouTube videos, I could find with this bit about piecing together Fremen words from the books, patently ridiculous to anyone who has actually read them. (I have not really read Dune Encyclopedia, just excerpts; publication restricted, as you note.)

Anyway, the current version should be fine; no mention of this at all. Shankarsivarajan (talk) 12:36, 24 June 2015 (UTC)