Talk:Frank Gadsby

Frank Gadsby's date of birth

I think that a precise date of birth in a biography is important, because it helps to identify the subject exactly, especially if they are a rather obscure historical person, like this one. It can also be rather embarrassing if, as in this case, there are so many sources giving different ages at death, and we don't know the answer to that. So that is why I am raising this question.

If we include the age thrown up by our own infobox, we have ages at death varying from 76 (infobox calculation) 77 (GRO birth index) and 79 and 80 (newspaper obituaries), plus a birth year of 1882 calculated in the article (rather dodgily) from the census and baptism records. A census calculation of year of birth can be a year out, either way (or worse in 1841). Baptisms in the 19th century could be carried out within a day or two of the birth if the baby might not live long, but it could also be delayed for years, for many reasons. Regarding the date of the birth certificate, registering a birth can be delayed up to 6 months, which can allow a couple to marry and give the child a "legitimate" birth certificate and surname - which may not matter these days, but it did then - so calculating a year of birth from the GRO index can be risky..

My best guess is that Gadsby was born in 1881, because that year can fit more of the above possibilities than 1882 can, and Gadsby's death certificate as listed on the GRO index does imply 1881. I am not requesting that anybody does anything about this dilemma, but I am asking that perhaps we can be a bit more vague in the article as to the date of birth?

• GRO index: Births Mar 1882 Gadsby Frank Calladine Basford 7b 170 (born at any date before April 1882)
• "Church of England baptisms, Basford, Notts, 1882". ancestry.com. Church of England. 16 January 1882. Retrieved 6 March 2023. (born at any date before 16 January 1882)
• GRO index: Deaths Mar 1958 Gadsby Frank C 77 Basford 3c 100 (died age 77)
• "Death of Mr Frank Gadsby". Nottingham Evening Post. British Newspaper Archive. 11 February 1958. p. 8 col.5. Retrieved 6 March 2023. (died age 80)
• "Louth brieflets: Frank Gadsby". Louth Standard. British Newspaper Archive. 14 February 1958. p. 11 col.2. Retrieved 6 March 2023. (died age 80)
• "Daredevil Peggy dies". Skegness News. British Newspaper Archive. 12 February 1958. p. 5 col.2. Retrieved 6 March 2023. (died age 80)
• "Daredevil Peggy". The Stage. British Newspaper Archive. 20 March 1958. p. 3 col.6. Retrieved 6 March 2023. (died age 79)

Storye book (talk) 16:12, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

@Storye book: Thanks for looking into this closely and raising a point that the DOB needed to be more accurate. A few times, I have been able to find an accurate DOB by checking the 1939 England and Wales register which was done just before the war and was mandatory for full dates of birth to be disclosed (although on occasion, people weren't truthful). I found Gadsby's entry here where he notes his DOB as 19 December 1881, which seems entirely plausible if he was baptised in January 1882. Therefore I have gone with this as the accurate DOB. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:44, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Well done! Thank you for that. I have updated the birth formatting in the infobox, and have made a category for him on Commons. I have also connected his Wikidata page to his Commons category. Please take a look and check that all is correct? Thank you again for all your hard work. Storye book (talk) 10:50, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Meant to say - thank you for that great picture, too. He was an artistic diver, for sure. Storye book (talk) 10:54, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Picture

Frank Gadsby diving

@Bungle: I have cropped out the picture of Gadsby diving. Even though very fuzzy if you zoom in on it, it works fine as a thumbnail. I think it would work at DYK, but as I've reviewed the article, it would need someone who is not me to add it to the article infobox and the DYK template, and a new reviewer just for the picture. Up to you, but you would get more views with a picture. Storye book (talk) 16:10, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Update: I have also found some more pictures - here. During the search I discovered that there is a statue of him at Southport, and also that he inspired a character in the old radio series ITMA. There are citations in that article. You may wish to use some of that?

Note: I also found some chatter on the internet which said that the Southport statue represented Gadsby's achievement, but that the model did not resemble him, for example a local one-legged military hero named Garner had a long stump like the one on the statue, but Gadsby did not. Also, if you look at the pictures of Gadsby himself, he is much stockier than the model for the sculpture. Of course we can't use that chatter, but it does raise questions. Storye book (talk) 17:22, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I did ponder a crop too, but I wasn't overly convinced by the quality once that was done (as it's using very few of the original pixels). There are some photos of him online, but the copyright status is questionable. This site shows a postcard featuring him from 1944, with no clear copyright notice, although we can't see overleaf to ascertain that being the case (if we can see any photos pre-1953 that were published in UK w/o copyright notice, I think Template:PD-UK-unknown would apply). The photo on the postcard is already available in a higher res version, while the one I used in the article is clearly in PD due to date and the only one so far I have found with no question mark on eligibility. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:02, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

In 1944, Gadsby would be approx 63 years old, whereas in the swimsuit picture with the walking stick he is clearly in his twenties or maybe even younger. To give benefit of the doubt I have uploaded it as before 1914, when he would have been 33 years max. In 1927 he would be about 46 years old, and he is well under that age in that picture. So that one is well inside the out-of-copyright margin. So in the 1944 postcard, at least one very old picture has been used. For that reason, I believe that we can use the swimsuit-and-stick picture. Storye book (talk) 18:25, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I do agree that the photos almost certainly were taken pre-1928 (technically, if taken in the UK, the copyright I think is 70 years after the author's death, rather than pre-1928 as per US standards). Even by UK standards though, i'd feel fairly confident of it being out of copyright, as you suggest. Pity there isn't a higher res version somewhere, though i'll keep looking as there may be some obscure magazine or weekly edition that features him. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:43, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

As for finding that holy grail magazine which features him, you have already given us the link to that. The magazine would have to be paid for, although it might be worth it because they say it's "the most comprehensive account of his life". Also, if they went to the trouble of erecting a statue of him at Southport, they may have something about him in the local museum there. Worth asking? Storye book (talk) 10:47, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Quite possibly (I am very close to Southport too). I have managed to track down a decent portrait photo from a postcode here and have cropped out the photo (I uploaded the whole postcard for showing there is no attribution/copyright notice). I think this would make a great infobox photo. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:22, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Well done! It's a great picture. The cap badge appears to be a lion rampant. He looks far too young for it to be WW2, so presumably WWI? Interesting. Storye book (talk) 22:19, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

@Bungle: I hope you don't mind - I noticed that the picture of Gadsby in the uniform cap had an aspect-ratio problem, which was also in the source. I have uploaded to Commons three versions in which I have corrected the aspect ratio, bearing in mind that in the swimsuit portrait (which I believe is reliable) Gadsby has quite a long face. I have not replaced your picture anywhere - I leave that for you to decide. Storye book (talk) 10:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

That's fine. The photo was angled so I tried to do some corrections on it but perhaps this also had the slightly undesirable effect of altering the aspect a little. Not a big issue to address. I think a little sepia works well (I did apply a bit to the one I uploaded). I am thinking your 1c variant therefore works best and I'll probably use this in the infobox when I do an article update (may need some further enhancement to remove blemishes but nothing major). Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:54, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Jolly good. Glad to be of help. Storye book (talk) 17:20, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

More stuff for the article

There is more stuff for the article, if you want to use it.

• "News summary: F.C. Gadsby". Oxfordshire Weekly News. British Newspaper Archive. 13 September 1911. p. 8 col.4. Retrieved 7 March 2023. (Summary: Gadsby did the 14-mile Hastings-Eastbourne swim in 5h 45min, on Monday 11 September 1911). Storye book (talk) 17:36, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, I have a few newspaper tabs open still with clippings yet to be uploaded. I do have access to BNA but haven't fully checked that yet (mostly as I managed to glean quite a lot just from newspapers.com alone). He did seem fairly well known as a diver during that time anyway! I also discovered that he featured in films too, which certainly needs a mention. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:02, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Good to hear. This article fascinates me, as you can see. But it is up to you what you want to add to it. I am limiting myself to posting here, anything that I may find, so never fear. To balance the article, there is also the firework incident in Scotland. The link is: "£30 damages to Aberdeen boy". Aberdeen Press and Journal. British Newspaper Archive. 27 October 1934. p. 9 col.3. Retrieved 7 March 2023. Storye book (talk) 18:31, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

This article may be a clue to Gadsby's swimming success: ""Peggy" Gadsby's feat". Skegness Standard. British Newspaper Archive. 8 October 1924. p. 2 col.7. Retrieved 8 March 2023.. The article has Gadsby at age 43 coming second in a 75-yard open event (not a master's event). He made 80 seconds, and the winner made 77 seconds. The time is not brilliant for professionals today - I used to sit and watch Adrian Moorhouse and the rest of the Olympic squad of his era training in the 50m International Pool at Leeds (now gone). If I remember rightly they would have beaten Gadsby. But I was an amateur marathon swimmer myself, so I can understand some of the issues. In front crawl, for example, you are literally dragging your weight along just under the surface, with your arms. If you had the same power, but less weight, you'd go faster. For that reason, the squad used to train quite a lot, using arms only. Legs are heavy, and you must assume an aerodynamic body form. Now, if you could do that, arms only, with only one leg to drag along ... There is also the risk of body-swing if you are not kicking, which undoes the aerodynamic shape. But we can see from the picture above that he had good control of body shape. So I think that that is how he did it - great power in the torso and arms, and dragging along only one leg - making his disability into an advantage. We can't use this in the article, but I think it helps to try and understand what we are writing about. Storye book (talk) 11:14, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

You may be interested in similar articles I have written too on Ted Heaton and Tommy Burns (diver), both of whom were relatively well-known around their respective time for diving and swimming. I got both to GA standard so I think that may be an aim for this article when I have bulked it out a bit (there seems to be enough reference material anyway). Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:57, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the links, I enjoyed those two articles. I love the Tommy Burns swimsuit covered in medals (ouch?). it's hard to imagine yourself in their position, these days, isn't it - but I guess they needed the hat money. They must have understood the risks. What a life, eh. A long time ago, on the Sea of Cortez, I met two Mohawks who had experience of the construction trade in New Jersey - you know, those pictures of Mohawk building workers sitting on the girders high above the ground. I asked them about that, and they said, well, they got hired because they had no fear of heights whatsoever, and they did it, of course, for the pay. But the contractors lost a lot of construction workers that way ... Storye book (talk) 18:05, 9 March 2023 (UTC).

I've just discovered that Gadsby was in a silent film, presumably as a stuntman as he is not named among the actors. The film is Forbidden Cargoes, and he dived off the Lizard Head.. The citation is: ""Death dive" at Roundhay". Leeds Mercury. British Newspaper Archive. 8 August 1939. p. 5 col.6. Retrieved 10 March 2023.. Storye book (talk) 18:29, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I think I alluded to his film "career?" already but I hadn't delved into it too much yet to make any assumptions or statements. I think I saw it in this article but as I say, I haven't really perused the BNA yet so appreciate there will probably be a wealth of additional material there (much of which you have already posted). Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:13, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Ah yes, sorry, you did allude to it, and I had forgotten. Storye book (talk) 11:30, 11 March 2023 (UTC)