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Military history: European / French C‑class

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France Low‑importance

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Comments

Comment

I think it will be more suitable to title this article "Cilicia War" (despite that the conflicts had extended the traditionally perceived boundaries of Cilicia). The Turkish article refers to a Franco-Turkish front, not an all-out war. The war was waged by locally concentrated forces. And even in Turkish, the more common definition is the "Southern front" (Güney cephesi). And the French term is "Cilicia War" (La guerre en Cilicie). A search for "Franco-Turkish War" (La guerre franco-turque) gives no hits. Under any viewpoint, naming a war in a way apparently never heard of by the principally concerned parties will look odd. Cretanforever 09:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ungrammatical English

This article needs to be checked/rewritten to eliminate numerous grammatical errors and ambiguities. Geoff Powers (talk) 13:39, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I second that. Some parts (e.g. Aftermath) are almost impossible to read. --Xeeron (talk) 17:40, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Copyedited on 9 March 2011. --Stfg (talk) 20:06, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring over victor

The edit war over the victory status for this conflict which focuses on the campaignbox needs to reach some endpoint short of locking this article from further edits. I am not a historian, but a neutral party here. The table below relates changes in the victory statement since article inception to just a few minutes ago. I will take a look at the citations provided throughout the edit history and add a note about that in a bit. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 16:24, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

year-month	state(ment)	Sourced	change link
2006-06	Turkish victory	No	Version 1
2006-07	(no value)	No	change
2009-07	Turkish victory	No	change
2009-08	(no value)	No	change
2009-09	ultimate Turkish victory	No	change
2009-11	(no value)	No	change
2009-12	French withdrawal	No	change
2009-12	(no value)	No	change
2010-02	Turkish victory	No	change
2010-02	(no value)	No	change
2010-02	Absolute Turkish Victory	No	change
2010-02	(no value)	No	change
2010-02	Decisive Turkish victory	No	change
2010-02	(no value)	No	change
2010-10	Small French victory	Yes	change
2010-10	Small French victory ...	Yes	change
2010-10	Small French victory	Yes	(bot) change
2010-10	French victory	Yes	change
2010-10	Turkish victory	No	change
2011-03	French victory	Yes	change
2011-03	Turkish victory	Yes	change
2011-04	French victory	Yes	change
2011-04	Turkish victory	Yes	change
2011-04	French victory	Yes	change
2011-04	Turkish victory	No	change

References used in various versions

Djuranovic, Marko (2008), "Appendix", Democracy Or Demography? Sources of Victory in Modern War (Google eBook) (self-published), Marko Djuranovic, p. 190, ISBN 9783639083132, retrieved 9 April 2011 {{citation}}: External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)
"Kinross pg. 246". I think this refers to "Ataturk: Rebirth of a Nation" (e.g. ISBN 9751408164), but can't verify this.
Garabet K. Moumdjian. "Cilicia Under French Mandate, 1918–1921". armenian-history.com. Smbat Minasyan. Kemalist cells and their development. Retrieved 9 April 2011. ...in October 1921, the French finally gave in by signing the Ankara agreement with Kemal. Cilicia was brought under Kemalist control while the French retreated south of the Alexandretta-Midan Ekbez-Kilis line.

Looking for additional references

This source does not appear to recognize the Franco-Turkish War as being separate from the Turkish War of Independence: George C. Kohn (2006), "Geographical Index", Dictionary of Wars (Electronic book), Facts on File Library of World History (3rd ed.), Infobase Publishing, pp. 647–648, ISBN 9780816065776, OCLC 609845163, retrieved 9 April 2011 {{citation}}: External link in |chapterurl= (help); More than one of |at= and |pages= specified (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)
This source suggests the conflict ended in concessions by both Turkey (economic) and France (land): William C. King (2007) [1922], "Warfare Continues in Half the World", King's complete history of the world war (Google eBook) (Digitized), The History Associates, p. 702, retrieved 9 April 2011, Mustapha Kemal's government at Angora, however, continued to function, and it was invested with a new importance when, in November, 1921, the Angora Grand Parliament ratified a treaty of accord with France, whereby France relinquished to the Turks some of her territory in Cilicia and in Syria in exchange for certain economic concessions granted her. {{citation}}: External link in |chapterurl= (help); More than one of |at= and |page= specified (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)

--User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:38, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is not French victory

Its imposible,french army lost the battle,look for result of war,frech army lost every territory!Please be objective!--88.243.249.249 (talk) 20:57, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's and edit war that is going on. You can't edit without consensus (and without source).DITWIN GRIM (talk) 05:53, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is not for Wikipedia to decide whether this was a French or Turkish victory. Wikipedia needs to represent the gamut of reliable reports on the matter. It appears that there is not a clear consensus among reliable sources (see previous section); pretending that there is a clear consensus based on our interpretation of circumstances or our desire for the result to be such or so has nothing to do with building a worthwhile encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not nor has it ever been about Truth; it is about representing what we know. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:54, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Judging from the treaties directly involved it would appear that "French victory" or "Turkish victory" are not the only options available.

The establishment of the Balkan national states, 1804-1920, by Charles Jelavich, Barbara Jelavich, page 314, "In October, 1921, the French evacuated the Cilician region also in return for economic advantages.".

Empires of the sand: the struggle for mastery in the Middle East, 1789-1923', by Efraim Karsh, Inari Karsh.[1]

I would say for the result, "Ceasefire" or "Draw"(since both sides gained something) and the current listing of Treaties. Although, "ceasefire" sounds more NPOV. Thoughts? --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:31, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

French military victory

I think that some users might confuse with "military victory" and "diplomatic victory". I want to remind the case of the Greco-Turkish War (1897). The Ottoman Empire won a military victory against the Kingdom of Greece. But the Treaty of Constantinople meaned Ottoman's loss.　We can say Savaşta kazandık fakat masada kaybettik. (We won war but lost on table) about this Ottoman's situation. About Franco-Turkish War, Ankara can say Savaşta kaybettik fakat masada kazandık (We lost war but won on table). The important is that no reliable source claims Turkish military victory. After Aintab (Antep) was fallen to the French Colonial Forces on 8 February 1921, there was no reportable "conduct of hostilities". From a military view point, I think "Small French vistory"^[1] is suitable for this article.

Takabeg (talk) 18:40, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

^ Marko Djuranovic, Democracy Or Demography? Sources of Victory in Modern War, 2008, ISBN 9783639083132, p. 190.

File:Armenian legion.png Nominated for Deletion

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French African Colony Forces

In Wikipedia's Turkish War of Independence article, Admins included French Colony Forces also, so I will change it. (I will wait a bit.) BaharatlıCheetos2.0'ın devamı (talk) 17:55, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Marko Djuranovic, Democracy Or Demography? Sources of Victory in Modern War, 2008, ISBN 9783639083132, p. 190.

[1]