Talk:Francis Hughes

Francis Hughes Street

There is no Francis Hughes Street in Boston. Never was. The writer may have gotten confused with the renaming of the street in front of the British Embassy in Tehran as Bobby Sands Street. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.219.165.100 (talk) 09:52, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

top

Any authority for the statement that he was convicted of other murders besides that of the SAS soldier? PatGallacher 14:44, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Out of respect you should say he’s from Derry not Londonderry Seamus smylie (talk) 00:40, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Recent edit

I have reverted it. The person mentioned is "Simon O'Sally", not Francis Hughes, and assumptions should not be made as to who it is referring to. The "facts" presented by Falconer are at odds with what happened also, for example Hughes was hit by a Sterling submachine gun, not a pistol, and he was not discovered by other members of 14 Intelligence Company but members of the Gloucestershire Regiment who were performing the search operation. I have also read parts of the book on Amazon Online Reader, and I am very suspicious as to whether Hughes is the person in the book. For example the claim on page 139 that a member of 14 Intelligence Company found "O'Sally" and forced him to "walk briskly" in order to make his heart beat faster so he would bleed to death. This is utter nonsense, Hughes could not even stand up due to the wounds to his leg, he was in hospital for almost a year recovering! The idea that he could "walk briskly" even if forced to is ludicrous. O Fenian (talk) 15:28, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Reply

Likewise how do we know the facts you have started above are true? I've taken that information from a source who was working in that area of operations at the time. It's also understandable that the author has assigned most of the characters in his autobiography pseudonyms.

You have to admit it’s amazing coincidence that the arrest of Hughes is very similar to the scene depicted in Falconers book. Two members of the armed forces involved in a gun battle with Hughes, one killed and one seriously injured. Hughes suffered a wound to the leg, is sentenced to life and later dies while on hunger strike with Bobby Sands.

Falconers book depicts that two British soldiers were fired upon, one later died of his injuries and one managed to return fire wounding O’Sally in the leg. He was also sentenced to life in prison and died taking part in a hunger strike with Bobby Sands.

You will also see that at the bottom of page 141 the author writes O'Sally recovered from his wound though he always had a limp. He was given a life sentence and died in prison after starving himself to death along with Bobby Sands. From what I can find none of the other men involved in the 1981 Irish hunger strike have quite such similar stories... Based on that it is highly probable that Falconers character Simon O'Sally is a pseudonym for Francis Hughes and that the scene depicted is of Hughes arrest.

Apologies for not using the correct citation procedure, I am new to editing Wikipedia --86.154.90.227 (talk) 19:10, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I never got as far as the part about Sands, apologies. There are remarkable similarities between the account in the book and the capture of Francis Hughes. However there are also many discrepencies.

Sources that contradict the version by Falconer:

• "Ten Men Dead" by David Beresford. "Smyth pulled himself to his knees, cocked his submachine gun and let loose a long burst of automatic fire at the running men. He dropped the Sterling and crawled to the radio". And "He [Jones] died the following evening from shock and uncontrollable infection". Then "They agreed to keep the cordons in place until dawn when they could start the search". Hughes was captured during this search. So as you can see, Falconer's version of events is very garbled. He has "Robbie" immediately searching for Hughes and capturing him, then when he "got back" (to his base, you would assume) he hears Jones had died on arrival.

• "The Irish War" by Tony Geraghty has a picture of the capture of Hughes, and it is daylight and captioned "found by soldiers thirteen hours after crawling away". Again, this contradicts Falconer's timeline of events.

• "The Trigger Men" by Martin Dillon. "His fellow soldier was also hit but bravely fired several bursts from his Sterling sub-machine gun as Hughes and his companion fled. Hughes was shot in the thigh..". "At daylight, using dogs, they picked up a blood trail which led directly to Hughes. As soldiers approached the gorse bush where he was hiding, they cocked their weapons and warned him that they would open fire". So again it's contradicting Falconer's version of events.

Falconer's version has some basis in fact, but it's a very garbled version of events you would agree? O Fenian (talk) 19:36, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Yea thanks, that’s actually very interesting. As the saying goes, don’t believe everything you read!! I think I'm learning that many books written by special forces soldiers seem to contain questionable stories! --86.154.90.227 (talk) 19:50, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I think it is just a case of chinese whispers. While most academic authors writing about the subject area will research and cite sources, ex-special forces may tend to rely more on hearsay and anecdotal evidence. You only have to compare the competing stories of Andy McNab and Chris Ryan about the Iraq mission that went wrong to wonder were they even writing about the same thing! O Fenian (talk) 19:54, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Arrest

Tim Collins book gives a long and graphic detail of his arrest. It is the probably th most accurate account. In it Hughes limps away after been shot with the aid of a colleague, after about 1 mile he was unable to continue and hid in a ditch and was discovered the following morning. There is no suggestion of mistreatment. I am going to change the word 'cralwed' as it is not accurate Tommyxx (talk) 09:41, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Intro

The article is not correct. There was no ambush by either side. Hughes and a fellow IRA man stumbled across the SAS men in a field. The IRA men were wearing army uniforms with 'ireland' written on the shoulders, the SAS thought they were UDR British troops and called out. The IRA men took a step back and opened fire. The SAS managed to return fire 'wildly' and Hughes got hit but his colleague was not. They walked away for about 1 mile. Hughes was discovere the next day, apparently he was hidden in deep gorse and his position was passed many times before a dog kept barking. There was no mistretment. He gave a false name but the arresting policeman guessed correctly who he was. My details here come from Tim Collins book on the Hunger Strikes 1981. Tommyxx (talk) 09:55, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

William Gordon killing

When Hughes was on hunger strike I recall reading in many Irish papers that he planted a booby-trap bomb under the car of William Gordon, a part-time UDR soldier. It detonated as he drove his kids to school. Gordon was killed in the blast along with his 10-year-old daughter, Lesley who was decapitated. The son survived, although badly-injured. Why is this info not in the article?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:09, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

If you can find a source to reference then that should be added. Of course you may add this yourself. Kilkeel (talk) 21:28, 27 May 2012 (UTC)Kilkeel

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Francis Hughes/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I was wondering why there was no mention that Hughes was suspected of murdering up to 20 people, including a 10 year old girl. The whole article reads like old style republican propoganda. There is no mention also of Loyalist reaction to his death/suicide, which I remember to be one of relief that a prolific killer had died.

Last edited at 08:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 15:27, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Quotation

"I have no prouder boast than to say I am Irish and have been privileged to fight for the Irish people and for Ireland. If I have a duty I will perform it to the full with the unshakable belief that we are a noble race and that chains and bounds have no part in us." The most famous and well-known quote from Francis. Any objection to its implementation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Banba (talk • contribs) 15:05, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

From the fact it was reverted means yes it is objected to, mainly on the grounds of bias, POV and relevance. Also it is an unsubstantiated claim that it is his "most famous" and "well-known" quote. Reliable sourced evidence of this? And an Phoblacht is not a reliable or unbiased source. Maybe if a suitable quote counter balancing this one can be provided then we can move forward. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:32, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Even some of the world's best known thinkers and people often quoted don't generally have their famous quotations in their articles. No reason someone who is not world renowned for their quotes to have them, especially when it's not supporting a specific point. Canterbury Tail talk 19:02, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Derry not Londonderry

Since he was in the IRA, I think he would refer to his home county as Derry. As an Irish person, I call it Derry and he would as well. I feel as though it is a disgrace to his memory to refer to it in the way that the English do. Mmcgroary (talk) 17:10, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

There has never officially been a county called County Derry, it was created as County Londonderry. On Wikipedia we refer to it as the official name of the county. This is a location in Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom and they get to name it. For community consensus see WP:DERRY. Canterbury Tail talk 21:48, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 March 2021

Change "Londonderry" to Derry. 87.232.160.220 (talk) 21:00, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

You'll need to get consensus for that change before requesting the edit, as it's bound to be contentious. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:24, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

No as per WP:DERRY. You'll need to overturn the Wikipedia consensus on county naming, and since the county was created as County Londonderry with no County Derry before it, and County Derry is a purely colloquial name, it's unlikely that it'll be changed. But you're more than open to try and form a new consensus. Canterbury Tail talk 22:15, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2021

SAS soldier killed in arrest of Francis Hughes is FALSE ! Only 2 SAS soldiers were killed in Northern Ireland - Richard Westmacott in 1981 and Alister Slater in 1984 . Eamonn de valera (talk) 08:06, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:29, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Just following on this one, there is a discrepancy in the article. The lead states it's a soldier from the SAS that is killed, but the body states it's the Parachute Regiment. They're not the same thing. I don't have access to the books being used as references in both cases, so can't make a judgement as to which one is correct (though the Palace Barracks memorial reference in the second instance doesn't support the article claim so I'll be removing that.) Canterbury Tail talk 13:15, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Depending on what book you read, Jones is variously described as SAS, in the Parachute Regiment, or both. The latter being that he was seconded to the SAS from the Parachute Regiment. I think including the secondment would cover all the bases, but thought it best to mention here first before making the edit. FDW777 (talk) 15:05, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Change Londonderry to Derry/Londonderry

Change Londonderry to Derry/Londonderry. This is fair for both sides of the troubles as it is recognised by the Irish peoples as Derry and recognised by Great Britain as Londonderry. Google maps and google earth recognise this sensitive topic and they use the 'Derry/Londonderry' term. This should be enough of a consensus to make the change. It is quite hurtful for some people to see that Francis Hughes was from Londonderry. Greenscreen01 (talk) 12:28, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. See above, and WP:DERRY ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:30, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Do I have to start a new section trying to gain consensus? I cant do it by editing so it seems it can only be done by "Through discussion".

You can just discuss it in this section. Although while under discussion an waiting for additional user input the edit request should remain closed..... ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:54, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

This would be an encyclopaedia level change, and an individual article discussion cannot override consensus on a broader level. I see you've already found the appropriate talk page to open the discussion, and that's the correct place for it. Canterbury Tail talk 14:04, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 December 2021

from Bellaghy, County Londonderry, Northern Ireland. Please change Londonderry to Derry as while the city name is disputed, the county is undisputedly Derry. 64.43.133.52 (talk) 22:10, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. See discussion above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:15, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Derry

This man gave his life for freedom and you have it noted he came from “London Derry” out of respect this should be changed. 2A00:23C8:A085:BC01:D085:CC90:7711:C925 (talk) 17:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)