Talk:Four Seasons Total Landscaping press conference/Archive 1

Archive 1

More text and references in draft article

I wrote a draft of this article today and was beaten to publishing it, there may be details and references not included in the article that are included in my draft User:John Cummings/Archive/Four Seasons Total Landscaping

Thanks

John Cummings (talk) 23:57, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

John Cummings: I don't understand what you mean by "beaten to publishing it." Your draft is titled Four Seasons Total Landscaping and is about the business itself, which is distinct from the single-event Four Seasons Total Landscaping press conference. NedFausa (talk) 00:15, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

NedFausa the article I wrote is in large part is covering this event, it seems most sensible the article should be framed to focus on the event rather than the business as it appears the business is unlikely to have much coverage outside of this event. John Cummings (talk) 00:38, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Cheers John, the references are much appreciated. Aluxosm (talk) 15:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the helpful information from your draft! I may have been a bit too fast with creating the article. I think if I had started with a more complete article, the AfD would not have happened. I do agree that the event is more notable than the location.  :-) --User101010 (talk) 20:13, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

What's where

The article currently says "Across the street was a sex shop and crematorium." Previously, I'd read that FSTL was (and is) next door to these.

Having far more important things to do with my time ... I didn't do any of them, and instead investigated. I don't suppose that an editor's perusal of Google Street View is a citeable source, but FWIW if you googlestreetview the landscaping place (7347 State Road, Philly, PA 19136), swivel 270 degrees from it (I mean, so that it's on your right), move along the road a very little, and swivel 90 degrees (I mean, so you're looking at the same side of the road you were looking at before), you'll see that 7363 is "Fantasy Island" (advertising DVDs, viewing booths, "novelties", etc). So it's neither opposite nor next door, though it's very much closer than a difference of 16 (7363 minus 7347) might make you guess. (Indeed, it's the next real building.) Right across the road from FSTL is number 7350, Delaware Valley Cremation Center ("Image capture: Aug 2019"). -- Hoary (talk) 01:21, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Here's a map of the location for clarity - 868174666 Four Seasons Total Landscaping press conference/Archive 1 on OpenStreetMap:

Aluxosm (talk) 12:32, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

We said that, I think, because the sources said it. I actually think we can cite Street View as long as it's recent enough ... it's basically citing {{Google Maps}}; I've done it in other articles without anyone raising any concerns through GA reviews. Daniel Case (talk) 22:23, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm surprised no one (that I know of at least) has picked up on FSTL's third amusing neighbour; just 3/4 of a mile away on the same road is The Philadelphia Department of Prisons 🤣. Aluxosm (talk) 21:33, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I think Vice mentioned it in their story. Daniel Case (talk) 06:36, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Photograph

I tried doing a royalty free or creative commons search for an image, but could not find any. A picture, or pictures would certainly enhance the article.Itisdiplomatic (talk) 02:08, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Keep an eye on Flickr's streams ... someone might post something. If not, someone in the Philly area can and should take the pic. Daniel Case (talk) 22:24, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The company posted a Zoom background. Would that be usable? https://www.facebook.com/168655773149863/photos/a.1088252291190202/4072750479407020/ --User101010 (talk) 21:44, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

No, it's not a free image. Daniel Case (talk) 06:36, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Participant time breakdown

Participant time breakdown

  Rudy Giuliani (73.89%)

  Matt Silver (8.54%)

  Lisette Tarragano (6.87%)

  Daryl Brooks (5.20%)

  Corey Lewandowski (3.61%)

  Other (1.89%)

Data based on the video linked to in the article, after dividing up the 37:51 minute (2271 second) long clip:

From	To	Total	Participant
00:00	08:39	8:39	Rudy Giuliani
08:39	10:27	1:48	Daryl Brooks
10:27	10:38	0:11	----------
10:38	12:49	2:11	Matt Silver
12:49	13:52	1:03	Matt Silver Q&A
13:52	14:02	0:10	Daryl Brooks Q&A
14:02	16:38	2:36	Lisette Tarragano
16:38	23:13	6:35	Rudy Guliani
23:13	23:18	0:05	----------
23:18	24:40	1:22	Corey Lewandowski
24:40	37:24	12:44	Rudy Giuliani
37:24	37:51	00:27	----------

Total time (minutes)	Total time (seconds)	Percentage	Participant	Description
27:58	1678	73.89%	Rudy Giuliani	Trump's lawyer
3:14	194	8.54%	Matt Silver	2nd Poll Watcher / Attorney
2:36	156	6.87%	Lisette Tarragano	3rd Poll Watcher / Realtor
1:58	118	5.20%	Daryl Brooks	1st Poll Watcher / Registered sex offender
1:22	82	3.61%	Corey Lewandowski	Campaign spokesman
0:43	43	1.90%	----------	Changeover time / walkout

References

Aluxosm (talk) 15:48, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

NedFausa's comments in the Tweet times topic pointed out that I should probably explain my thinking with this breakdown. This one is a little different in regards to Wikipedia:No original research, because in my opinion it's more just basic calculations.

Essentially though, even if none of this makes it into the article in any way, I still think it's useful to editors wanting to expand on any points or as a jumping-off point to search for references. For example, the statement in the article:

The event was also criticized for prominently featuring a convicted sex offender

could be expanded on because although he was first in line to speak, he actually spoke for the least amount of time out of the three poll watchers. Aluxosm (talk) 12:12, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Actually, come to think of it, that's probably a bad example because without a solid reference it's pretty close to WP:OR. Really, I think the reason I did this breakdown was because I thought someone else could get more out of it than I could. That and I just really love data! Aluxosm (talk) 14:26, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Mentions on American late-night talk shows

Not sure if it's worth mentioning these or how to talk about them, but the American late-night talk shows had a field day with this! These are a few that I've found so far:

Date	Host	Show	Episode
9 November 2020	Conan O'Brien	Conan	episode 1436
9 November 2020	James Corden	The Late Late Show with James Corden	episode 830
9 November 2020	Jimmy Fallon	The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon	episode 1350A
10 November 2020	Jimmy Kimmel	Jimmy Kimmel Live!	season 19 episode 33
9 November 2020	Seth Meyers	Late Night with Seth Meyers	episode 1063A
9 November 2020	Stephen Colbert	The Late Show with Stephen Colbert	episode 994
9 November 2020	Trevor Noah	The Daily Show	episode 3497

References

Aluxosm (talk) 05:28, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

All of these are now mentioned in the In popular culture section of the article. Aluxosm (talk) 08:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Tweet times

Data from the Trump Twitter Archive

All times are AM EST on 7 November 2020:

• 9:35:36   - "Lawyers Press Conference at Four Seasons, Philadelphia. 11:00 A.M."
• 9:43:56   - ↳ "Four Season’s Landscaping!"
• 9:45:37   - "Big press conference today in Philadelphia at Four Seasons Total Landscaping — 11:30am!"
• 10:00:27 - "Lawyer’s Press Conference at Four Season’s Landscaping, Philadelphia. Enjoy!"

At around 11:50 the press conference actually started.

References

Aluxosm (talk) 03:53, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@Aluxosm: Please, what does this mean? I don't understand why you are posting it here. NedFausa (talk) 04:09, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@NedFausa: Just thought that the precise timings were interesting and could be useful for the article. Aluxosm (talk) 04:17, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I cannot imagine how the precise timings could be useful for the article. Hopefully, other editors will have more imagination than I. NedFausa (talk) 04:35, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry @NedFausa, didn't explain myself very well. I wasn't necessarily talking about direct use in the article, really just that knowing the actual times could be useful to an editor trying to expand on or clear up the timeline. Especially considering that the confusion stemming from the tweets is a big part of why this story is notable.

I know you have to watch out to avoid original research, however I think it's useful to have as much information as possible, then if there's something that warrants further explanation it'd likely be easier to find references to back up the claim.

Hope that explains my thinking a littler better, do let me know if not though. I've been up all night watching the SpaceX Crew-1 mission so might not be talking much sense! Aluxosm (talk) 11:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

To clear up the timeline further for an unnamed editor in the Way of decision - How did the press conference come about? topic - The Four Seasons Philadelphia, as in the hotel, clarified their position about an hour after Trump's original tweet:

• 10:45 - "To clarify, President Trump’s press conference will NOT be held at Four Seasons Hotel Philadelphia. It will be held at Four Seasons Total Landscaping— no relation with the hotel."

I haven't trawled though all of the articles again but I'm pretty confident that I saw somewhere that they tweeted this after receiving a load of calls asking them about the press conference.

References

Aluxosm (talk) 15:30, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

The dead vote

The text "specifically mentioning boxer Joe Frazier and actor Will Smith's father" is followed by a citation that mentions neither person, and the coverage I've seen refers to Smith's grandfather. -- Pemilligan (talk) 04:34, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

@Pemilligan: He did say father in press conference, however he (ironically) got mixed up the day after and tweeted that it was his grandfather. Either way, the statements about Will Smith's father, and boxer Joe Frazier have both been proven to be incorrect according to officials. The claim potentially originated from a post on a pro-Trump blog dated the 6th of November, the day before the event.

Please feel free to add any of this to the article, I wasn't sure how to work it in. You're correct that the reference after that line doesn't mention any of this though so that should definitely be changed.

References

Aluxosm (talk) 12:50, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

@Aluxosm: Thanks. I've added the Rev reference to the article. -- Pemilligan (talk) 01:59, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Additional links in the 'See also' section?

Is it worth adding any of these to the See also section?

• Lawsuits related to the 2020 United States presidential election
• Disputes surrounding the 2020 United States presidential election results
• Public image of Rudy Giuliani

The first one is linked in the article and infobox, and the third is linked in the Rudy Giuliani template at the bottom of the article, neither of which are particularly visible on a quick scroll though. I think they'd be quite useful for further context and, well, for other things to see. The main reason I wasn't sure what to do with them is because they are a lot more closely related to the actual article than the ones that are currently in that section so it may require different formatting. Any thoughts? Aluxosm (talk) 16:04, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Maybe the third one. WP:SEEALSO is pretty clear that only articles not otherwise linked in the body of the article, even behind pipes, should go in that section. Daniel Case (talk) 18:45, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

@Daniel Case: Thanks for the link, I wasn't aware of those guidelines. The Public image of Rudy Giuliani article is in desperate need of some updating so I'd probably say that it'd be best to wait until there's some relevant content in it before adding the link. Cheers! Aluxosm (talk) 19:48, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

RFC - Converting footnotes to list-defined (LDR) format

First off, apologies for my recent edit mistake. I undid it quickly but it was obviously not my intention. I had meant to edit my common.js page but switched to the wrong tab and pressed 'publish' while the article had some random changes in it 🙄.

I wasn't going to propose this until I had planned this more thoroughly but might as well get the ball rolling now. Essentially this internal RFC is to see what peoples thoughts are on moving to to a list-defined (LDR) format are. I've been adding references in that way (inside the reflist template) from the start and am wondering if there would be any objections to moving the rest of the references out of the main text and into the template. I for one find it much easier in working with the references and the main text with the wikitext being so much cleaner, however I am aware that it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Any comments or questions would be much appreciated! Aluxosm (talk) 22:22, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Been over a week and no one has raised any concerns so I'm going to go ahead with this, hope that's okay! The other thing that has prompted me to do this is a recent edit by JHunterJ, while it definitely improved the article, it also made the wikitext (especially the references) much harder to read in my opinion.

I wasn't aware of reference bundling before, and while I can't say that I'm a convert, I can see their benefit. My main gripe with them is how the references are displayed when expanded. There are a few different ways to format them but at the moment they are just split with a semicolon (;), this makes it hard to read in the tooltips & reference section because they are all smooshed together. It also makes it even harder to read the citations in the wikitext because there isn't a syntax highlighted </ref><ref> to break them up.

For the moment, I'll just migrate the article to use LDR but I won't change any formatting so there shouldn't be any visual changes. I'll link the edit here when I'm done. Let me know if there are any thoughts on this, especially formatting-wise. Cheers! Aluxosm (talk) 22:31, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

I'd prefer to delimit them in a bullet list, but WP:CITEBUNDLE says semicolon; I'd be happy to bullet here them instead. -- JHunterJ (talk) 00:08, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

@JHunterJ: I've tried all of the various styles (super easy to now all of the references are in the same place 😜) but I'm still not sure:

• The bullet format looks 1000 times better in the tooltips but really odd in the references section because they are indented and don't have any text to lead into them which leaves a blank line above them. (could be remedied by giving each group a title?)
• The line break format is a happy medium with slightly more understandable tooltips and mostly normal looking refs in the refs section.
• The paragraph format doesn't really look any different and requires potentially unnecessary text.

I'm more leaning in the direction of the line break format to be honest. I know the guide says that it breaches the accessibility rules but I don't really see how it's any worse than a semicolon. Overall, i think I'm just a bit confused as to how this still an issue. I can't be the first person to notice these oddities. Or maybe it's because I'm just a bit more, err "fastidious" than most! Aluxosm (talk) 22:36, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

No objections to any of the options from me. -- JHunterJ (talk) 00:14, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Nov. 19th Trump Campaign Press Conference On Multiple Legal Challenges

Not sure what the title of the article would be but if "Four Seasons Total Landscaping press conference" has an article then this widely-covered press conference [1] definitely deserves a Wikipedia article. I'm seeing lots of RS reporting on it the past 24 hours. Yodabyte (talk) 12:39, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

It's been widely covered, yes, and definitely deserves a separate section in an article, probably the one on the lawsuits. But has it gotten some sort of life of its own like this one did ... inspiring T-shirt sales (mine's in the mail), comedy bits, memorialization as the effective end of the Trump presidency, etc.? Daniel Case (talk) 18:58, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Be bold and create it! --User101010 (talk) 03:39, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid I agree with Daniel Case here. Be bold for sure, but I would be surprised if it got past an AFD because of the lack of anything other than news about it (see: WP:NOTNEWS & WP:OTHERSTUFF). The fact that we're struggling to think of what the title of the article would be is not a great sign. Aluxosm (talk) 16:18, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I would also point out that that press conference is probably most appropriately discussed at length in the Sidney Powell article. If we decide on a title, it should for now be a redirect to that. Daniel Case (talk) 18:48, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

@Daniel Case: Good shout. Other than Rudy Giuliani melting, most of the coverage has been on her conspiracy theory bulls**t bingo and subsequent firing. Aluxosm (talk) 19:42, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Suggestion... In the aftermath section of this article, add details about the Nov 19 press conference. If the description gets big enough, then it might be a sign that it's worthy of its own article. --User101010 (talk) 03:20, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

@User101010: Your idea got me thinking. The presser on the 19th isn't the only one of note that is not quite deserving of it's own article but definitely worth a mention, so I went ahead and created Draft:Media events related to the 2020 United States presidential election lawsuits, at the very least it could be used as a staging ground for other articles (again like you suggested) but without cluttering up this article with lots of other mentions of random pressers. Might be worth moving the conversation over there if you like the idea. Cheers! Aluxosm (talk) 13:24, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

AFD to DYK

This page went from AFD on Nov 8 to DYK on Nov 29. Great work!!!

AFD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Four Seasons Total Landscaping press conference

DYK: Wikipedia:Main_Page_history/2020_November_29

--User101010 (talk) 02:50, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Not the first time something like that's happened, but, yeah ... pretty cool. Daniel Case (talk) 02:51, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Huge thanks to everyone involved! I've really enjoyed watching and contributing to the progress of this article 😃. @Daniel Case: special thanks for getting it to DYK - Junk Miles Podcast [@JunkMilesShow] (November 29, 2020). "WE'VE MADE WIKIPEDIA!!! #FraudStreetRun" (Tweet). Retrieved November 29, 2020 – via Twitter.

SNL makes a follow-on joke ...

In tonight's cold open, they spoofed the Michigan House hearings this week that brought us Melissa Carone, with Cecily Strong doing what she could to improve (I guess you could say that) on an original who a lot of people thought was her in disguise to begin with. At the end, Kate McKinnon as Giuliani said he'd be holding a press conference at the Ritz Carlton ... Ritz Carlton Plumbing and Heating, a block off I-94 next to the sex shop and the crematorium.

I suppose we'll have to add this to the article when we can get a source to cite. Daniel Case (talk) 05:07, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

@Daniel Case: This is going to be comedy fodder for a while! Here's two new articles about the parody:

• Pallotta, Frank (December 6, 2020). "'SNL' returns with 'Rudy Giuliani' and his witnesses contesting the election". CNN. Retrieved December 6, 2020. McKinnon's Giuliani said. "And if you liked what you saw here today, we're giving a press conference right after this at the Ritz-Carlton... Plumbing and Heating Supply Company."
• Romero, Dennis (December 6, 2020). "'SNL' portrays Trump supporters' election testimony as hot air". NBC News. Retrieved December 6, 2020. "If you like what you saw here today, we're having a press conference right after this at the Ritz-Carlton … plumbing and heating supply company," [McKinnon's] Giuliani said.

Aluxosm (talk) 10:14, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

A few more things to mention?

1. The Trump campaign didn't pay anything for the venue:
   • Pransky, Noah (December 4, 2020). "Trump's Four Seasons Total Landscaping Bill: On the House". NBC Philadelphia. Retrieved December 6, 2020. An NBCLX review of the president's post-election campaign filings, submitted to the Federal Election Commission Thursday night, revealed no payment to Four Seasons Total Landscaping in Philadelphia

   Money didn't actually change hands, but they might still have to report its value as an in-kind contribution (I handle some local campaign finance reporting, and believe me something like this, we would have to). They also probably have the option later to file an amended report if it's taken some time to put a value on it. Daniel Case (talk) 03:04, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

   @Daniel Case: I guess "Presidential campaign presser" probably wasn't in the FSTL brochure! Do you know if there's any kind of time limit for disclose of either scenario? Aluxosm (talk) 18:38, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

2. Trump library jokingly proposed to be built at FSTL:
   • Smith, David (December 6, 2020). "Could the Donald Trump presidential library – or theme park – lie ahead?". The Guardian. Retrieved December 6, 2020. Last month Michael Beschloss, a presidential historian, invited his Twitter followers to suggest potential locations for a Trump presidential library. The responses included a federal prison, North Korea, Moscow, an outdoor toilet and Four Seasons Total Landscaping in Philadelphia.
3. FSTL's account of the timeline and other info:
   • Goodin-Smith, Oona (December 1, 2020). "Philly's Four Seasons Total Landscaping dishes the dirt on the news conference heard 'round the world: 'It was nothing we anticipated'". The Philadelphia Inquirer. Retrieved December 3, 2020. The phone rang around 8:45 a.m. Saturday, interrupting Sean Middleton's Bible study in Doylestown. A Trump campaign staffer told the director of sales they were surveying areas along the I-95 corridor, asking if the company would be willing to host a news conference.
4. Corey Lewandowski last year: "I have no obligation to be honest with the media"
   • Caroline, Kelly (September 18, 2019). "Lewandowski: 'I have no obligation to be honest with the media'". CNN. Retrieved December 6, 2020. Former Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski said he has "no obligation" to tell the truth to the media while acknowledging that he had not told the truth when asked earlier this year about his interactions with President Donald Trump.

Aluxosm (talk) 10:46, 6 December 2020 (UTC)