Talk:Foundation and Earth

Novels: Sci-fi Mid‑importance

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Science Fiction Low‑importance

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Plot flaws? + a different enemy?

{{spoilers}} One thing that I noticed: If Daneel was running out of room in his own brain (because one can only compress information so much), why did he not simply get a bigger brain? He already mostly worked behind the scenes - he could have a whole room as his brain if he really wanted to, I'd imagine, because he wouldn't have to move around much anyway. And he wouldn't have to undergo a risky merger with Fallom. The reason that I added the section to this article with Fallom being the possible enemy is that if Daneel merges with Fallom (who has no distinctive like of humanity), his three robotic laws will cease to work. Combined with his vast knowledge and power, this could well mean that his merger with Fallom leads to a very serious crisis for humanity, as it is Fallom who ends up controlling Daneel and not the other way around. Did Asimov ever hint (besides the obvious hint in the last line of the book) that he planned to go in this direction? Esn 07:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One very obvious plot point that was not resolved was where the solarians disappeared to. This sugguests that any sequel would have to involve the Solarians in someway. Aarontay 19:43, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Uh, what do you mean, where they disappeared to? I was under the impression that all of them except for Fallom are still on Solaria at the end of the book, hiding underground? Esn 04:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If they were around they would have blasted Trevize and company. I think the implication was that Fallom was the only and remaining Solarian left on the planet. It is unclear if they all died out or left.. Aarontay 11:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I reread and you are right. The Solarians are still where they were. My mistake. Aarontay 18:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read the book?

I believe the real threat would be the SOLARIANS themselves. Besides, as Daneel gets a bigger brain it lasts for a lower amount of time.

I can agree with that, but in the book, it said that as Daneel got a larger brain, the less stabile it was. And Daneel is a robot that is millenia old. It said that the longevity of his brain decreases, that and his brain changes because of some randomity law.(Been a while since last read)

The problem is not storage but access

You can have as much memory as you want, but then most of the information would take too long to retrive, unless you have a good compression and cataloguing system too synthesis the information into knowledge. Human brains are very good at that. Then imagine what pressure millenia of information would generate. Hillgentleman 16:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Daneel changed mind on Psychohistory -re- Gaia?

Maybe this is just an unavoidable continuity error from the decades between books, but did Daneel Olivaw (aka Chetter Hummin from Prelude to Foundation), make a serious *mistake* in setting up Psychohistory as the way to minimize the effect of the Empire's collapse?

I mean, ostensibly he supported him up until his departure from Trantor in the Psychohistory project.

Yet, later, in Foundation's Edge/Foundation and Earth, we learn that it was Daneel that was steering everything towards Gaia as the Galactic Organism by which he could 'handle' humanity as the Zeroth Law stated.

Does that mean that his whole planning and Hari's lifework on the Project was in vain? It would seem so to me, if, as he said, Fallom's brain would give him enough time (apx. 500 years) to bring Galaxia - that would put it in the same timeframe as the Foundation's climax as Galactic Power.

?

Seems to me that Daneel was betting on two horses - the Foundations AND Gaia. Later on, he arranges for Trevize to decide between the 2 foundations and Gaia because as a robot he feels he cannot decide himself. The mistake, of course, is to merge his mind with that of Fallom, who is not a human being.

It's unclear, in some of the books it is sugguested that Daneel was preparing the Gaia project centuries before even Seldon was born, and that sugguests that Gaia was always his first choice. The Killer B books go even further with Daneel stating outright that Psychohistory is just a distraction at best and that the whole thing about Trevize "the man who is always right", was a scam, and he would be mantipulated to choose Gaia over Foundation.Aarontay 19:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Exile 15:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Was it a mistake? Regarding Gaia, there was no reason to think the project would work at all. As or Fallom, she is a mutated human but not too different. Her people are not agressive. --GwydionM 17:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In one of the early meetings between Daneel and Seldon, Daneel makes sure to reinforce one notion on Hari: that of always having two plans so that if one fails the other is still around. So of course it stands to reason that he'd have two plans himself for saving humanity - Galaxia, and Psychohistory. Just because one has two plans doesn't mean it's wrong to favor one of them, and Daneel clearly favors Galaxia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.227.155.110 (talk) 17:35, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Correcting some details

Alpha is charted, and they are fairly sure it is not Earth. It is not a normal world, having just the one big island. It was settled long after the 'Pebble' project failed. (Though if Earth was growing ever more radioactive, it is hard to understand why it was ever attempted. of course Asimov posited the restoration long before he decided that Earth's radioativity was not the result of an atomic war.)

Asimov's remarks about the similarity between Alpha Centauri A and Sol are worth highlighting: it is a real-life puzzle, a rather odd coincidence.

--GwydionM 17:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eep!

Half the plot is wrong! 59.183.157.233 (talk) 09:34, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The desire of Robot Daneel Olivaw to create Galaxia within his remaining lifespan severely compromises his judgment.

Robot Daneel Olivaw is much more powerful than The Mule as it is, but unlike The Mule, the Laws of Robotics paralyzes him. He can no longer upgrade himself. In a few centuries, he will fail to function. His solution is to merge with the Solarian Fallom to circumvent the laws of Robotics and assimilate its Transducer-Lobes. His desires blind him to the extreme danger to Humanity this represents:

The Solarians have very worrying characteristics:

They are long-lived.
They are asocial.
They have genetically engineered themselves to have what we would consider antisocial personality-disorder.
They have enhanced intelligence.
They can utilized ambient energy in their environment as it goes from high to low concentration.

The Entity after merger might be benevolent, or it it could be a Solarian SuperMule:

The Entity could have the memories of a score of millennia, the mentallic capabilities of Robot Daneel Olivaw, the intelligence of both Robot Daneel Oliva and Salarian Fallom, the ability to manipulate energy of Solarian Fallom, no laws and the personality of Solarian Fallom, and a life-expectancy of centuries. This Entity, a Solarian SuperMule, would be the greatest threat to humanity and Via Lactea in history. It immediate actions are easy to predict:

Use mentallics and mastery of energy to conquer the First Foundation.
Send the Navy of the First Foundation to Trantor immediately.
Use the Navy of the First Foundation to destroy the surface of Trantor before the Second Foundation can flee.
Send the navy of the First Foundation to Gaia.
Use the Navy of First Foundation to destroy the surface of Gaia.
Use mentallics, its ability to manipulate energy, and the military of the First Foundation to conquer the Via Lactea.

¿Cannot Gaia and the Second Foundation defend themselves?:: Not against this entity.

¿Why attack the Second Foundation first?:: The Second-Foundationers can flee.

¿Why attack Gaia second?:: As a planet, Gaia cannot flee.

I doubt that this Solarian SuperMule would be susceptible to a Bayta Darell. ¡I hate to think what this Entity could do! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.232.188 (talk) 05:09, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@unsigned, 76.102.232.188

There isn't much reason at all to assume that Daneel, after merging his mind with Fallom's, would become deranged and begin working against his (upwards of) 20,000 year-old plan. From the start, your statistics on the Solarians are flawed(or at least, they are in Fallom's case). She doesn't exhibit any signs of antisocial personality disorder, and doesn't seem to be uncommonly averse to socialization. I can't recall the exact info, but Fallom is around 8-12 years old. Daneel remembers everything of importance in his lifetime. 20,000 years of data compared to Fallom's 8-12 is scarcely a competition. The outcome, even if Fallom were to remember every single minutiae in her 8-12 years, is clearly in Daneel's favor in terms of memory and personality dominance. Assuming Daneel did not simply wipe the Solarian's memory and replace it, and instead chose to take a much more dangerous method and allow the two personalities to co-exist, he would utterly dominate Fallom's. What then, could possibly cause Daneel to begin acting against the goals he has maintained for the past 20,000 years? Destroying all of the Foundations along with Gaia would not accomplish his goal any more expediently, putting aside his disinclination towards taking human life.

So wherever you get this babble about a "SuperMule's" actions being easy to predict, it is certainly not from the novels I have read. Neither Daneel nor Fallom have even an inkling of desire for conquest, and the chance of a mutation occurring while merging their minds and causing this personality trait is highly unlikely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.188.192 (talk) 00:21, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unwritten sequel - is the reference correct?

I could not find proof for this reference in the book:

"As detailed by his wife in It's Been a Good Life, Asimov intended to write a sequel, but his attempts were fruitless. He did not know what to do next. This is why he wrote the prequels (Prelude to Foundation and Forward the Foundation) instead..."

Could anyone refer me to the correct chapter in "It's Been a Good Life"?

Ghrasko (talk) 08:52, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In any case, it would be not only unwritten but also unimagined, so we can rest in peace that nothing was taken from the series by his untimely death. --ExperiencedArticleFixer (talk) 12:33, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]