Talk:Foss (band)

Fewel Street

This is not discussed in the article's body and I would suggest at least some sourced mention of it if you're going for GA. dannymusiceditor ^oops 21:29, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Good point. I've added a sentence about Fewel Street, plus the demo. Given that it's their only full-length, surprisingly few sources talk about it at all. No one can agree how to spell it (Fewel/Fewell Street/St). The few sources that do mention it refer to its existence and move on without further comment. I'm unsure whether any sources accurately give the year, either. Only Exclaim! alludes to the year of release: "Foss release their debut full-length, Fewel St. The same year Startled Calf release the four song EP I Love Being Trendy and Foss release a self-titled demo and a seven-inch on Western Breed Records." That year would be 1993. Discogs says the album was released in 1995, which I'm inclined to trust, even though of course we can't use it as a source for that purpose (I'm also relying on them for the default "correct" spelling of Fewel Street). I'd rather just omit the year from the text in the meantime; there are other small errors in some sources that I ignore (for instance, literally dozens of sources refer to El Paso Pussycats as an "album"). —BLZ · talk 22:19, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

@DannyMusicEditor: Btw... Any interest in reviewing the article for GAN? Sounds like you've already taken at least a cursory look at it, and you already came back with some good feedback. I see you have a policy about GA review requests on your userpage (understandable), and I see your name is attached to an article at WP:GAN at the moment. I'd happily swap review for review! Or if there's something else you'd rather have me do in return, let me know. —BLZ · talk 03:24, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Usually I don't, but since I actually have some interest on this subject, tell you what. If this is still unreviewed on May 1 when I'm finished with my second year at university, I will. Would you be interested in taking one of mine in return? It's fine if you decline, just thought I'd toss out the offer. dannymusiceditor ^oops 16:33, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

@DannyMusicEditor: Sure thing! For some reason my browser's "find" function failed me before, and I wasn't able to see that you had multiple GA nominations. I'm happy to review The Colour and the Shape, which I'm going to start now. I'm happy to wait until May 1 or later if need be, no rush. —BLZ · talk 21:52, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Foss (band)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: DannyMusicEditor (talk · contribs) 03:34, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

As promised, I will now reserve my spot for this review. I shall begin probably on Friday. dannymusiceditor ^oops 03:34, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Alright, so I haven't made any comments until now, but I've read the article a few times. Very, very informative and well-researched. Working on some now. dannymusiceditor ^oops 15:53, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Background

• Only problem I found with this section's writing is one I've already fixed (minor typo).
• Would it do any good to link punk rock on its first mention?

• Done. It's linked in the lead, but most of the time I'm OK with relinking important concepts on first mention in the body.

• That's it, really. The only other thing I think about is that it focuses an awful lot on O'Rourke's individual life for a band article, but then again, it's only notable because of him, and it is encyclopedic information, so where else do you put it? That's what I find so unique about this article.

• It's not the typical music article, that's for sure. I tried to draw out as much noteworthy stuff about Cedric as I could, but he describes his time in the band in terms of looking up to Beto as a role model/quasi-older brother figure—so even then, Beto is at the center. —BLZ · talk 03:50, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

More coming soon. dannymusiceditor ^oops 16:21, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Recordings, tours, and public-access television appearance

• noting that O'Rourke's musical skills had seemed to improve judging by musical performances during his 2018 Senate campaign. You can write that better, right? Seemed to improve what?

• Good catch—that wording made sense in my head, but a fresh set of eyes reveals that it was horribly mangled. I've given it a second try, let me know what you think.

• added "titled" before The El Paso Pussycats; if you don't like this, at least keep the comma I added before it (I believe that's the correct way to do it).

• That's an improvement, thanks.

• Somehow, you should note how Fewel Street was variously reported to have been released in different years like we discussed on the talk page.

• The year hasn't been variously reported; only one source alludes to a year at all. However, some sources have misspelled "Fewel Street"—which I don't think is worth remarking on in its own right, especially for such an obscure release.

• Was Fewel Street maybe an important street in El Paso? Not required, but just a thought, if the information is available.

• According to Google Maps, there is a Fewel Street in El Paso. Oddly, no sources have connected this dot. In general there's very little info about the album, which is highly unusual given that an album is usually a focal point in a band's career. But again, Foss is not really super notable in their own right, just for its members' future successes. Still, Fewel Street being a real street in El PAso is a low-hanging-fruit fact — I would have expected someone to bring it up somewhere at least once, or ask Beto about it. I also just noticed that the address of their DIY label was on Fewel Street.

• That is all. things are looking promising.

Style and influences

• Since "emo-punk" is not a real recognized subgenre and is just a lesser-used synonym to emo, I would recommend adding quotemarks to distinguish the literal description by the source and piping the link as such: "[[emo|emo-punk]]"

• Done.

After Foss

• No issues.

Impact on Beto O'Rourke's political career

• In an op-ed for the New York Times, Mimi Swartz said the fact that O'Rourke "once played in a punk band called Foss" boosted his appeal with millennials. Why quote there? Is that necessary? I don't think so, myself.

• Done. —BLZ · talk 03:50, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Alright BLZ, I'm finished. Have at it. dannymusiceditor ^oops 00:43, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Passing

I could have sworn I saw sources disagreeing on if Fewel Street might have been released in 1993 or 1995. Am I just imagining this? I don't remember which sources said it, respectively, so I won't hold it any longer. Also, I think the information on how the album's title correlated with El Paso doesn't have to hold this up, we can add that later. dannymusiceditor ^oops 14:46, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

@DannyMusicEditor: You're right that there is some uncertainty around the release date, but the title is the fact that I found the most actual difference (or mistakes). Multiple outlets have at least reported the album title, but it's been spelled multiple different ways with no clear indication of which is more reliable (other than knowing that the real street is spelled "Fewel", so "Fewell" is almost certainly a typo by a reporter).

If there is genuine disagreement on the release year, I haven't seen it. Most of the time, a release year is simply not mentioned at all. Exclaim! is the only source I've found that alludes to a release year, and it does so in an unclear way. In the section "1993 to 1997" of a history of At the Drive-In, they write "Foss release their debut full-length, Fewel St. The same year Startled Calf release the four song EP I Love Being Trendy and Foss release a self-titled demo and a seven-inch on Western Breed Records." This suggests that Fewel Street came out in 1993—I Love Being Trendy came out that year, and the other two Foss releases have been dated to '93 by other sources. Admittedly, that's not impossible. But Exclaim doesn't quite say so explicitly, and the overall chronology given in the article is a little odd and jumps around a lot. There are other little errors, like calling the band "Los Dregtones" by the name "Los Dragtones". Overall I'm not inclined to take this as definitive, given that they're the only ones to report it (and given that Foss is not really the focus).

While Discogs is not a "reliable source" in and of itself, I think it's a decent conduit for primary sources, especially where there are actual scans of album art. According to the Fewel Street Discogs page, it was released in 1995... but more interestingly, the notes on the page say "The liner notes state that the recordings took place on the first and second days of 1995." There isn't a scan of the album's liner notes, which is unfortunate, but assuming that's accurate it's impossible that the album could have been released in 1993. Technically there isn't any "disagreement" between sources—if this fact was actually in dispute, people on either side would be making arguments and digging up evidence, and it would be resolved fairly quickly. The problem is that there's a lack of scrutiny. I would add a footnote if there was actual disagreement or conflicting evidence reported in reliable sources, but so far all we have seems to be one iffy source weighed against (apparent) firsthand description of the recording dates in the liner notes. I'll admit it's not ideal, but for now I think what's there is most likely to be accurate given what's available right now.

I anticipate there will be more reporting about Foss if Beto's campaign sticks around much longer. Right now music from Fewel Street isn't even available online and strikingly, unlike Foss's 7-inch, it hasn't even been sold on Discogs, eBay, or any other online marketplace ever. Hopefully future reporting clears up this mystery, and I'll keep my eye out for further info. —BLZ · talk 20:51, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

So the disagreement is caused only by Exclaim!, then? Not like this changes the outcome. dannymusiceditor ^oops 00:34, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Question

@Brandt Luke Zorn: In the section on Beto's political career, there's a tremendous amount of focus on op-eds. Are there any polls or anything showing that Foss helped Beto's political prospects or just opinion pieces? I there's just opinion pieces, how much focus do they deserve? By the way, great job on the article!MagicatthemovieS (talk) 00:55, 1 June 2019 (UTC)MagicatthemovieS

If there were, I'm pretty sure it'd be here already. I think this articles runs the 'net pretty dry of reliable sources on this topic. dannymusiceditor ^oops 22:22, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

I haven't seen any polling on this, nor would I expect to see any. It was probably too specific and too difficult to disentangle from related aspects of Beto's image/biography to reliably poll on it. If a pollster ran a question on Foss, they'd probably be running dozens of other equivalently specific questions—"How does Beto's decision to attend Columbia University affect your view of the candidate? How does Beto's DUI affect...? The fact that Beto's real first name is Robert...?" And unlike a breaking news event that might significantly alter perceptions of a candidate within a set time frame, it would be too difficult to know when people had become aware of this minute aspect of Beto's biography (if they had at all). I'm not a statistician, but I feel like this kind of question would generate too little signal, too much noise to be useful info—not to mention it would likely approach push polling, depending on how it was conducted.

Based on your (MagicatthemovieS's) question, I just now revised the NYT op-ed sentence. I had reworded it recently as part of this GA review to solve a different problem (using quotation where paraphrasing would convey substantially the same meaning), but my paraphrase inadvertently made too strong a claim. I don't intend to make the claim that Foss actually boosted O'Rourke's appeal (with millennials or otherwise); rather, the noteworthy thing is the extent to which Foss became an object of "the discourse" surrounding O'Rourke. If that seems speculative, it's not too out of the ordinary for music articles, which report opinions published in reliable sources all the time. The key thing is to express "A critic expressed an opinion" or "A group of critics formed a common consensus", rather than "Because a critic expressed an opinion or because a consensus formed, that opinion/consensus is itself a fact." Along these lines, much of what's in this article would be inappropriate to include in articles with primarily political (rather than primarily cultural) subject matter, like Beto O'Rourke or 2018 United States Senate election in Texas. It works here because the subject matter is Foss, not O'Rourke or his political career. —BLZ · talk 23:17, 1 June 2019 (UTC)