Talk:Fortress of Klis/Archive 1

Archive 1

Layout

Made some changes to the layout of the Architecture section. Feel free to revert if this is less than optimal. GregorB (talk) 10:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, it is better to have a text as a part of an image. But I was thinking to implement text from section: Interesting Notes into article. So, that section would become redundant, which would make a mess in layout. I guess we will see...Regards, Kebeta (talk) 14:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

My thoughts also - Interesting Notes looks like a trivia section, something reviewers probably won't like. In that case layout will have to change - hopefully not for the worse... GregorB (talk) 16:12, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Take a look, it is the best I can do...for now..Kebeta (talk) 18:10, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Very good, in fact... GregorB (talk) 19:10, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Klis Fortress/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: –– Jezhotwells (talk) 08:46, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.

Checking against GA criteria

GA review (see here for criteria)

First Impressions:

• This looks to be an interesting and well researched article.
• The Lead should be a maximum of four paragraphs according to WP:LEAD.
• There are a few prose issues, which I shall highlight as I go through in more thorough detail. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 09:59, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   The Klis Fortress (Croatian: Tvrđava Klis) is a medieval fortress situated above a village bearing the same name, near the city of Split, in central Dalmatia, Croatia. Drop the initial The.

   From a small stronghold built by the ancient Illyrian tribe Dalmatae, a royal castle that was the seat of many Croatian kings, to a large fortress during the Ottoman wars in Europe, Klis Fortress has guarded the frontier, being lost and re-conquered several times throughout its more than two thousand year-long history. Very clumsy, appeasr to be a poor translation from Croatian. Needs splitting into separate sentences for clarity.

   Mostly due to its location on a pass that separates the mountains Mosor and Kozjak, the fortress served as a major source of defense in Dalmatia, especially against the Ottoman advance, and has been a key crossroads between the Mediterranean belt and the Balkan rear. - MOstly duie to?

   Since Prince Mislav of Littoral Croatia made Klis Fortress a seat to his throne in the middle of 9th century, the fortress has served as the seat of many Croatia's rulers. The reign of his successor, Duke Trpimir I, from the House of Trpimirović, is significant for spreading Christianity, as he built a fortress, a church and the first Benedictine monastery in Croatia in Rižinice under Klis. Again poor grammar and use of tense.

   In March 1242, at Klis Fortress, Tatars under the leadership of Kadan suffered a major defeat, while in pursuit of a Hungarian army led by King Béla IV of Hungary. After failure against Croatian soldiers, Mongols retreated and Béla IV rewarded Croatian towns and nobility with a substantial amount of riches. Are we talking about two separate campaigns here? Or are teh Tatars and the Mongols the same?

   During the Late Middle Ages the fortress was governed by Croatian nobility, from which Paul I Šubić of Bribir was the most significant one. During his reign, the House of Šubić controlled most of modern-day Croatia and Bosnia. Excluding the brief possession by the forces of Bosnian King Tvrtko I, the fortress remained in Hungaro-Croatian hands for the next several hundred years, until the 16th century. - Oh dear this gets worse. You are going to have to find someone to copy-edit the whole artcile if it is all like this.

   And it is. OK, I could fail this right now for poor grammar. This is not "reasonably good prose" by any strecth of the imagination. See if you can get any help for the Croatia WikiProject or from the WP:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors

   The final sentence of the Lead and the section Klis Fortress today read like a tourist brochure, overly promotional. Drop the stuff about ticket prices, this kind of information dates rapidly and is unnecessary in an encyclopaedia.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Ref #16 [1] Encarta, archived at WebCite returns a 404 error. Unfortunately the WebCite service is no longer available. And this cannot be found at the Internet Archive.

   Ref #2 [2] is not a reliable source.

   Ref #33 [3] is not a reliable source

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   Slightly promotionl atone in places

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   Right the whole article needs a comprehensive and thorough copy edit to turn it into good readable prose. If this cannot be done in seven day, then I will not be listing it. If the nominator knows that they cannot get this dione in seven days, pleae say so, so that no-one's time is wasted. On hold for seven days. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 11:27, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

   OK, I have gone through the article line by line and cleaned it up to a standard that sufficiently satisfies Crireia 1.1 "reasonably good prose". I removed some redundancies and repetition, as well as editing for grammar and style. Please remember to get articles copy-edited before nominating at WP:GAN in future. I am now happy to pass this as a Good (and interesting) Article. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 20:23, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Reply to a reviewer

Thank you Jezhotwells for a GA Review of Klis Fortress. I will try to improve the article within seven day, as you asked. The main problem is copy edit, as you said. I already did my best regarding to articulate English and prose, so I will ask for some help from other editors, in order to turn it into good readable prose. Regarding other issues, I hope you will help me solve them the best you can. So, here they are:

• Should I completely remove the final sentence of the Lead?

That is not necessary, I see that you have incorporated it into the preceding paragraph.

• Should I completely remove the section Klis Fortress today, or try to integrate some facts about the armor museum into section Architecture?

Again, not necessary, but the tone is rather promotional - like a guidebook, which is not appropriate for an encyclopaedia. Here is a suggestion: "The Klis Fortress has been developed as a visitor attraction by the "Kliški uskoci" re-enactment association in Klis with the aid of the conservation department of the Ministry of Culture in Split. Visitors to the historic military structure can see an array of arms, armor and traditional uniforms in building which once formed an Austrian armory. " ref [4]

• As for point 2. (It is factually accurate and verifiable); I will replace Encarta reference with other one, and other two reference which are not reliable source won't be needed if we are going to delete section Klis Fortress today.

See above I found another refrence for you.

• Can you pinpoint some things which you consider slightly promotional, or this is applied to the final sentence of the Lead and the section Klis Fortress today?

Answered above

Again, thank you for your GA Review, and if you notice some other things that can be improved, please tell. Regards, Kebeta (talk) 15:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Architecture

I did a quick copyedit of the architecture section. Hope I understood all correctly. If not, feel free to revert. I find this section relatively brief compared to the history section, which is maybe not an issue for GA but if you have more information regarding the buildings within the fortress (as presented in the annotated illustration), would be a gain for the article. --Elekhh (talk) 08:01, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Elekhh for your copyedit of the architecture section. Yes, architecture section seems to be relatively brief compared to the history section, but history section goes back to time Before Christ. Anyway, I think that I can found more information regarding the buildings within the fortress, but only on the Croatian language, which means that I will have to translate it first. Unfortunately, I can't manage that within next seven days. But, If you are interested, after the article passes GA Review (which I hope), I will write addition to architecture section here, on this talk page. So, you can copyedited it, and put it into the article. Although, buildings within the fortress don't have great arhitecture value. But the foreress itself as a comprehensive structure barely discemable as a man-made building, although it was built as a massive stone structure. Kebeta (talk) 11:18, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Sure, I am happy to help in the future as well, and who knows, maybe at FA one day. --Elekhh (talk) 12:02, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Copyediting

As far as I understood reviewer-Jezhotwells, all problems regarding points 2.,3.,4.,5.,6., are now solved. The remaining issue that is left is point 1. (It is reasonably well written). I made some minor changes for better clarification, so that other users who are willing to help, can copyedit much easer. (BTW, It is all one campaign-Tatars were subjugated by the Mongol Empire). Since I wan't be back till Tuesday or Wednesday, feel free to ask any possible questions here, or adress them to GregorB. He is familiar with the subject, and willing to help. Regards, Kebeta (talk) 15:38, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Architecture

Fortress outskirts

The city-fortress Klis rises on a bare cliff. It is divided into two parts. The first, lower part is on the west and it is out top by Mount Greben from the north. The second, higher part is on the east, and includes the tower "Oprah", whose name most likely refers to a specific part in the defense. In this, section which was not topped by any side, was located the flat of the Commander. The only entrance into the fortress is from the western side. On the southwest side of the fortress, and bellow it was a resort called "Borgo, suburbium", surrounded by double walls with 100-200 towers. A similar but smaller resort existed below Mount Greben on a plateau called Megdan. This included lazarettoes and quarantines which were in Turkish times called "nazanama". There were also many inns for travellers. They were used for isolation during epidemics. Thus, the coastal towns, primarily the town of Split was protected from epidemics that came from Bosnia. Near the fortress, there were several sources of drinking water, and the closest was the "Holy Biblical Magi" whose importance was invaluable during long sieges.

The first fort

From the earliest known fort, which was located on the highest eastern side, so far no remains were found. This oldest fort (roman castrum), was still there after the Fall of the Roman Empire, and used by Croatian dux Trpimir, which is known from the discovery of a stone fragment on a gable arch from an altar screen, inscribed with the prince's name and title.

Present appearance

The first defensive line

Today many building mostly from the Venetian and Austrian period of the fortress of Klis are partially or entirely are preserved. The fort actually consists of three parts, enclosed by walls with separate entrances. The first main entrance was built by the Austrians in the early 19th century, on the place of old Venetian entrance. Left of the entrance there is a fortification erected by the Venetians in the early 18th century. Also near the main entrance there is a "position Avanzato" built in 1648, which was also repeatedly renewed afterwards. On the ground floor of the fortification there is a narrow over-vaulted corridor, which is called a Casemate.

The second defensive line

The second entrance leads to the former medieval part of the fortress previously ruled by Croatian nobility, and was significantly damaged in the siege of 1648. Venetians fully restored the second entrance, but its current aspect was made by Austrians during the early 19th century. Near the second entrance, along the northern wall there is fortress-tower called "Oprah", the most important medieval fortification of the western part of the fortress. It was mentioned for the first time in 1355, but later the Venetians made the lower crown on it. Nearby of the entrance are artillery barracks, built by the Austrians in the first half of the 19th century. In 1931 its upper floor was ruined, so now only the ground floor remains.

The third defensive line

The second entrance leads to the former medieval part build in the early Middle Ages. The Venetians renewed it several times after conquest, and the last upgrade was in 1763. Within this part there is the side tower, built during the 18th century, and completed in 1763. Following is a repository of weapons built in the mid-17th century and old powder magazine from 18th century. House of Dux or later called governor’s residence was built in the mid-17th century. It was built on the foundations of the oldest buildings from the period of Croatian kings.

Austrians repaired this building, and there were placed commandments unity of the fortress and Engineering. On the top point of the fortress was "New gun powder storage", built in the early 19th century.

The third defense line was also almost entirely self-preserved church of St. Vida. Built by the Turks after the conquest of Klis in 1537 as a mosque on a site of an Old Croatian Catholic church. It was square-shaped with the dome and minaret. Immediately after liberation in 1648, the Venetians converted it into a Roman Catholic church and dedicated it to St. Vida. It is simple constructed square with the octagonal stone roof. There used to be three Altars, dedicated to St. Vid, Virgin Mary and St. Barbara, but today the church has no inventory. In the he church there is a Baroque stone sink from the 17th century, which served as a baptistery where ther is engraved the year 1658. West of the church is the bastion of Bembo, the largest artillery position in the third defense line and in the whole fortress. In has wide holes for guns, and was built on half of 17th century on the site of former Kružić's tower and the defensive positions of Speranza.

This is expended architecture section which I am going to correct (copyedited) and that implement into the article. It is full of grammar errors, and written with very bad prose. If somebody with better English is willing to help, that would be great. Regards, Kebeta (talk) 22:23, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

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