Talk:Foreign relations of the State of Palestine/Archive 4

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Europa World Year Book source

About this source - it includes it in a "Countries with which the PLO maintains diplomatic relations: ...Swaziland...Vanuautu..." and the next paragraph is "The following states, while they do not recognize the State of Palestine, allow the PLO to maintain a regional office: ..." While this arrangement may imply that the first list contains states that do recognize SoP - this is not written in the source (it writes about PLO diplomatic relations - and as we have multiple examples, including the above Australia source [1], this isn't the same as to recognize SoP). Also the list of states that 'PLO maintains diplomatic relations with' includes Austria and Vatican City - and we have sources showing that these don't recognize SoP (see here and here) - so we should not just assume that the first paragraph lists states that recognize SoP - this isn't written in the source itself and contradicts the Austria and Vatican City MFA pages.

I added 'not in citation given' tags [2], but Night w removed these with explanation "implication is obvious".

The source is useful to show PLO diplomatic relations (above in the article), but is there any reason why we should use this source for "recognizes SoP"? Alinor (talk) 12:35, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

See here. Alinor (talk) 11:33, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

See above - this source was replaced with similar, also dubious (contains contradictions, "blanket list"), but at least stating "SoP recognition". Alinor (talk) 09:57, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Kyrgyzstan

The original letter (in Russian) and a copy in English:

Брагину Василию

ana**@narod.ru

В ответ на Ваш запрос от 16 сентября 2010 года сообщаем, что дипломатические отношения между Государством Палестина и Кыргызской Республикой были установлены в ноябре 1995 года.

Vasiliy Bragin

ana**@narod.ru

In response to your request on September 16, 2010 to announce that diplomatic relations between the State of Palestine and the Kyrgyz Republic was established in November 1995.

--analitic114 (talk) 22:02, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Now we have to decide whether we can use this "Nov.1995" information for the "diplomatic relations" column instead of . Anyone to share his opinion? Alinor (talk) 07:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, it is possible as the date of relations with the Palestinian Authority, until a reputable source (perhaps even re-recognition of independence after the re-proclamation of independence, which is possible in the summer of 2011 at the request of leaders of the PNA). --analitic114 (talk) 07:36, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

The changes are obvious - to change column recognition from "2010 or before" to "1995 or before" and to change diplomatic relations from "yes" to "1995-11". The question is whether we should do this without a source. Alinor (talk) 12:47, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Sent a letter to the Kyrgyz Foreign Ministry letter, if possible, that they have provided links to online resources or are located on the site this information. --analitic114 (talk) 13:16, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Today it is only confirmation I have provided you with information without providing any links to online sources (from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Kyrgyzstan)

Here is the original letter and translation into English (as occurred to me, without any corrections)

Interesting one date indicated there

090/б-25 от 01.02.2011г.

Брагину Василию ana@yandex.ru

В дополнение к нашему исх. № 091/б-22 от 16.09.2011 г. сообщаем, что дипломатические отношения между Палестиной и Кыргызстаном были установлены в ноябре 1995 года.

090/b-25 from 01.02.2011.

Vasiliy Bragin ana@yandex.ru

In addition to our ref. № 091/b-22 from 16.09.2011, it was reported that diplomatic relations between Palestine and Kyrgyzstan were established in November 1995.--analitic114 (talk) 10:48, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't get it - what is "in addition" and what is the new date? They already said about "Nov 1995" in their previous email. The only other date that I see is "16.09.2011" but it is about the "ref. № 091/b-22 " - the registration number of your question. Obviously this is a typo - they most probably mean 16.09.2010 (the date of your initial inquiry). Alinor (talk) 15:22, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Namely, that they have only confirmed the date - November 1995, without specifying to any location where there is such information.

And in 2011 it was they were wrong, just funny - it comes out I wrote from the future!

So while all controversial, and where to look for another source is not clear!--analitic114 (talk) 15:35, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I suggest that on 16.09.2011 you better send them some email, or else no one knows what will happen... Alinor (talk) 15:58, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

no comment! :-D--analitic114 (talk) 16:22, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Indonesia

I do not see Indonesia, why you deleted it? These two links show the relationship with Indonesia and State of Palestine, with a full relationship with the State of Palestine and the date of recognition of independence from Indonesia: That [3] and [4] --analitic114 (talk) 21:33, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I haven't deleted it - I have moved it down to 1988-11-16 (as per the sources from Indonesia MFA page). Alinor (talk) 07:44, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

A side note - you may be interested in Talk:Foreign_relations_of_the_Palestinian_National_Authority/Archive_2#Article_name discussion. The current name of this article seems wrong - it deals mostly with SoP, then PLO and the least with PNA relations. And since both SoP and PNA are represented abroad by the PLO I think that the appropriate name for the ru-wiki article would be the translation of Foreign relations of the Palestine Liberation Organization. Alinor (talk) 08:11, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Suriname

There are some recent news reports about Suriname recognition of Palestine. But they are vague and don't give clear answer to whether Suriname falls into option1 or option2 of my 09:00, 22 January 2011 comment above. Do we have a link to the official announcement? Anybody to has a link to Suriname MFA or other government website?

It seems that this is another case of option1 - supporting Palestine state right to exist, but no recognition/relations yet with the already declared SoP. Please look at the weak recognizers section for other similar examples. Alinor (talk) 10:34, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Dates of recognition for the Balkan states

Some of the dates of recognition used for the Balkan states seem dubious. For example, for Bosnia we state that recognition was on 27.05.92 and quote the source [5]. However, that source lists date of recognition OF Bosnia BY Palestine. We want the inverse of that. It's possible that both states recognized each other simultaneously, but obviously this need not be so. Same goes for Montenegro. Perhaps we should remove these dates until better sources show up? TDL (talk) 18:45, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

What else do you need more reliable sources, if not the websites of the Foreign Ministries of the Balkan states? [6] Link to Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Bosnia with the Embassy of Palestine in addition to you!--analitic114 (talk) 19:59, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the link shows Embassy of "State of Palestine" (in the English version). If it was "Embassy of Palestine" or general delegation or representation or whatever else - then we could argue that SoP is not recognized (because "Embassy of Palestine" is a common reference to "Embassy of PLO, the UN observer entity"), but for Bosnia we have clear source. Alinor (talk) 20:29, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

At the same time on the websites Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Bosnia and Montenegro are listed and the date of the beginning of diplomatic relations!--analitic114 (talk) 20:02, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

TDL, I understand what you mean, but for both Bosnia and Montenegro we have official sources with clear "State of Palestine" references, so I don't see any reason to doubt their SoP recognition. Also, these are one of the few examples where we have a date of recognition on official source - I think we should use these dates. Also, I think that the issue you raised is one of the reasons for states to not participate in "recognition" anymore and to go straight to "establish diplomatic relations" (that are bilateral and simultaneous for both sides).

Finding better sources for Montenegro/Bosnia dates of recognition is not very likely, IMHO. And again - I think we have more serious WP:V issues with some of the states that we list as recognizer, but don't have substantial enough (or any at all) sources to back this (or worse - we have sources implying the opposite). Alinor (talk) 20:29, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Wait...maybe I wasn't clear. I'm not trying to suggest that Bosnia/Montenegro should be moved to the non-recognizers. I agree with you that the references to the "State of Palestine" on the MFA website are enough to include them in the list of recognizers. Nor am I questioning the "date of establishing relations" as per the MFA website. I'm just suggesting that the "date of recognition" should be listed as something more general such as "1992" since we don't actually know the specific date when Bosnia recognized Palestine. The dates we have are: 1) the date Palestine recognized Bosnia (1992-05-27) and 2) the date they established diplomatic relations with each other (1992-10-30). Clearly the recognition of Bosnia by Palestine predated the establishment of diplomatic relations by five months. Was this because Bosnia withheld recognition until 10-30? Or did Bosnia recognize sometime between 5-27 and 10-30 (or even before 5-27)? Without more sources it's not clear. TDL (talk) 20:54, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

SoP is "older" than BiH, maybe that's why SoP recognized BiH and not vice versa. A similar situation is with Kosovo-Taiwan. Taiwan recognized Kosovo, but "Kosovo hasn't reciprocated". For BiH/Montenegro we don't have such "hasn't reciprocated"...

I suggest that we keep the dates for BiH/Montenegro and maybe add a footnote explaining that these are cases of "SoP recognition of XXX since" instead of the regular "SoP recognition by XXX since" (and the column heading is just "SoP recognition since"). Alinor (talk) 06:37, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I added "Lista zemalja koje su priznale Bosnu i Hercegovinu i datumi uspostavljanja diplomatskih odnosa" (quote from source) to Bosnia entry. For Montenegro the source doesn't have such sentence - it's unclear whether the dates are Montenegro->XXX or XXX->Montenegro. Alinor (talk) 18:27, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

News from Ireland

Here are some sources: [7] [8]

Maybe you can use them in the artice.

--Ahmetyal 23:06, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

This is already done. Alinor (talk) 12:54, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Azerbaijan

Нашёл интересный файл: [9]

1992 ci ilin 15 aprel tarixində Azərbaycan Respublikası ilə Fələstin Muxtariyyəti arasında diplomatik əlaqələrin yaradılması haqqında Protokol imzalanmısdır.

April 15, 1992 signed a protocol on establishing diplomatic relations between Azerbaijan and the Palestinian Authority Of course, I just sent a letter to the Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry, but I think they will confirm this information!--analitic114 (talk) 12:30, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

In 1992 the PNA didn't existed, so this clearly is some mistake - they established relations either with the PLO (I assume so) or with SoP. Let's see what they will answer and whether it would arrange them clearly in option1 or option2 of 09:00, 22 January 2011 comment above. Alinor (talk) 13:54, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

The answer will have to wait, but you must also understand that the file was created as a minimum in 2008 (possibly later). I think they are just that, and point (for PNA), that file!--analitic114 (talk) 13:59, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Just as an example to quote his own words link to the website of the League of Arab States to sign some contracts, there is the State in Palestine, although in 1983 it was not yet!:

[10] Riyadh Arab Agreement on judicial cooperation (to amend article 69)

Approved by the Council of Arab Ministers of Justice, by its resolution No. (1) dated 04/06/1983 in the first session of the regular session. The agreement was signed on 06.04.1983, "Riyadh" by all member states except for each of the (Arab Republic of Egypt - Republic of the Comoros Federal Islamic). The Convention entered into force beginning from the date of 30.10.1985, and the application of the provisions of Article (67), of which Ratifying States: State of Palestine as of 28/11/1983 Republic of Iraq on 16/03/1984 Republic of Yemen Republic of Yemen People's Democratic Republic on 04/13/1984 Yemen Arab Republic on 11/06/1984 Republic of the Sudan as of 26/11/1984 Islamic Republic of Mauritania on 06/17/1985 Syrian Arab Republic on 30/09/1985 Somali Democratic Republic on 10/02/1985 Republic of Tunisia on 29/10/1985 Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan as of 01/17/1986 Kingdom of Morocco as of 03/30/1987 Libyan Arab Jamahiriya on 06/01/1988 United Arab Emirates as of 05/11/1999 Sultanate of Oman as of 28/07/1999 State of Bahrain on 23/01/2000 Kingdom of Saudi Arabia on 05/11/2000 Democratic People's Republic of Algeria on 05/20/2001 According to Article (72), of which resolved the Convention for the States that ratified the place of the three conventions held in 1952 in the scope of the Arab League on each of the: declarations, letters rogatory and the implementation of the provisions, and extradition. Amendment of Article (69) of the Riyadh Arab Agreement on judicial cooperation - The Council of Arab Ministers of Justice to amend Article (69) of the "Riyadh Arab Agreement on judicial cooperation" agreement signed in 1983 and by its resolution No. (258) dated 26/11/1997 in the role of the ordinary session of the third century. So that the text of this article as follows: "This Convention is without prejudice to special agreements between some member states in case of conflict between the provisions of this Convention with the provisions of any special agreement shall apply the Convention to achieve the most for the extradition of accused and convicted and the achievement of security and judicial cooperation in other areas." - States have ratified the amendment: State of Palestine as of 09/15/1998 United Arab Emirates as of 05/11/1999 Republic of Tunisia on 05.25.1999 Sultanate of Oman as of 28/07/1999 State of Bahrain on 23/01/2000 Kingdom of Saudi Arabia on 05/11/2000 Democratic People's Republic of Algeria as of 05/20/2001 - Effective Date: This amendment shall enter into force 30 days after the date of deposit of instruments of ratification, acceptance or approval of a third of member states in the university. --analitic114 (talk) 12:17, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

This is different, because SoP succeeded the PLO seat in the Arab League (PLO is member there since 1976). The Azerbaijan document situation is something similar - I assume that they established relations with either the PLO or the SoP in 1992, and later (at the time of document writing) they also have established relations with the PNA and as PNA is represented abroad by the PLO - they say "PNA relations since 1992". The question is whether in 1992 relations were established with PLO only or with SoP. Alinor (talk) 13:04, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

UNAIDS document

The following document from the UNAIDS programme Governance Handbook pertains not to the United Nations Regional Groups as is claimed, but rather describes its own customary grouping system, which is "based upon" the UNRGs. It should be removed from the article, unless we are also going to describe Palestine's status on the UNAIDS board. Nightw 15:34, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Notice that the UNAIDS list (p.28-29), does not list the Programme Coordinating Board, because the PCB comprises 22 representatives only (that are elected from among the Member States of the Consponsoring Organisations). See ibid. p. 18. Eliko (talk) 15:51, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Irrelevant. The description is given: "The composition of the UNAIDS Programme Coordinating Board is based on the regional groups that are used by the UN General Assembly, ECOSOC and its subsidiary bodies." (i.e., not the same thing). This cannot be used as a reference to the UNRGs unless it says that is what it is describing. Nightw 16:46, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Do you claim that the full list (given on p. 28-29) is of the PCB - comprising 22 members only (as indicated ibid. p. 18)? The document (p. 28) just states (rather than "describes") that the composition of PCB is based on the "Regional Groups used by etc.", whereas the list - is of those Regional Groups. And...yes: the Regional Groups are not used by GA only, but also by ECOSOC and by its subsidiary bodies. Anyways, I added this to the quotation. Eliko (talk) 17:20, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

No, the list shows how they divide their candidates, not their members. The candidates are made up of the member states of the cosponsoring organisations. If the source states that its list is "based on" something, you cannot claim that it is what it is based on. Nightw 17:39, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Candidates? The document states (on p. 28) that the "composition of the UNAIDS Programme Coordinating Board" is based on etc., whereas the word "candidates" is not mentioned there.

I agree with you that "If the source states that its list is based on something, you cannot claim that it is what it is based on"; However, the source does not state that "its list" is based on something, but rather states that the "composition of the UNAIDS Programme Coordinating Board" is based on something, whereas this something is the Regional Groups, so, are you claiming now that the full list (given on pp. 28-29) - is not of the Regional Groups - but rather of the "UNAIDS Programme Coordinating Board" (comprising 22 members only, as indicated on p. 18)?

Eliko (talk) 17:54, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I see what you mean. You can keep it. But I'll need to reformat it, since the link is given twice. Nightw 16:44, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Syria?

I'm confused by Syria... I would assume that it had recognized Palestine...? Arab unity and whatever... I don't have any sources though, but I'm confused by the maps. The one above the map says it's uncertain whether it does and the table says the same, but then the map after thw table says it's without recognition of the State of Palestine. Which is it? Rennell435 (talk) 17:06, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

"Too many colours", I believe, was the reason for ignoring NPOV... Alinor? Nightw 17:32, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

As for your assumption that Syria recognizes Palestine: Syria does not, because it considers (unofficially) the claimed territory of Palestine - to be an integral part of Greater Syria. Eliko (talk) 18:55, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Is that so? Do you have something to support that with, or is that just another assumption? Because if you did have a source, by all means, don't hold back, it would solve a lot of problems. Nightw 15:56, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Much unofficial info about that in Arabic, although I'm not sure about reliable info in English (except for forums and the like). Eliko (talk) 11:01, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

We don't have an undisputed source about Syria recognition. When we finish the debate about some of the sources the maps will be updated according to the result. Alinor (talk) 19:11, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, yes, it ws just an assumption. But I don't think that there should be one map showing one thing and then another something completely diffrent. Its confusing they should all show the same thing. Rennell435 (talk) 12:24, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree, and I think I raised this before. All entries where the situation is unclear should be coloured such on the bottom map. I don't really see why the last map is needed, but in any case, picking one or the other when the sources are inconclusive is against NPOV. Nightw 15:57, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Let's wait for our multiple disputes to settle and we will then get to the maps. Alinor (talk) 20:13, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

That's not an acceptable way to deal with the issue. I'll take it to WP:NPOV/N if Rennell435 doesn't. Nightw 06:28, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

What is not acceptable? I just say - we can change the maps after the issue is solved and we agree on the required result. We can't change a map without knowing what has to be changed (because part of these changes are in discussion currently). Alinor (talk) 08:44, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

That's not acceptable in any form. I've lodged a motion at the WP:NPOV/N. Nightw 05:48, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Protected

Edit warring has continued during an open WP:RFC. This article has been fully protected for one month, or until the RfC about Uruguay closes. If anyone thinks it would be better to sanction individuals rather than keep protection in place, make a proposal at WP:Arbitration enforcement. Protection may be lifted if agreement is reached. EdJohnston (talk) 15:59, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

The agreement that was in place was fine. I proposed something, and waited for Alinor's consent ... but a different edit was made, and so I reverted. I'm still waiting for Alinor's consent on the original proposal, since he never replied, but I've asked him to discuss first for next time. I think things are working much better; this one instance was probably just a misunderstanding... Having said that, page protection might be a good idea. Nightw 16:17, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Night w, you didn't wait for my consent! You ignored my comment [11] and made a RFC portraying my position in the way you want others to see it. At the same time you haven't restored the stable version of the page and in this way you additionally mislead RFC commenting editors that your version is the accepted status quo stable version - instead of the unaccepted non-consensus addition that it really is. I have specifically asked for you to restore the stable version before filing the RFC. I asked for you to provide draft RFC text (and give you some initial input on how would I like my position to be displayed) so that we can agree on the RFC text before you fill it. You disregarded this plea too.

After you made your breaches and filled a one-sided RFC without presenting a draft first and without restoring the stable version of the article first - I restored the stable version (in regards to the Uruguay note)[12] and reworded the RFC.[13]

You then pushed again both for your non-consensus version of the article and for your version of the RFC text.

Night w, by all these actions you entirely disregard our agreement to first-discuss-then-act reached after your 1RR breach - Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Night_w. Alinor (talk) 17:19, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

"I'm still waiting for Alinor's consent on the original proposal"??? What do you mean? YOU haven't replied to my comments. Alinor (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Meh. Looks like protection was a good call. Nightw 17:24, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Night w, I don't know how to interpret the lack of responses from you, but during the protection period I'm implementing latest agreements/proposals and I'm making further improvements in mission sourcing at Talk:Foreign relations of the Palestinian National Authority/SandboxA. Alinor (talk) 19:47, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the agreement at AE was that you would bring your work to the table for discussion before implementing. I hope you haven't forgotten that one. Is there anything in particular you'd like me to comment on? I haven't been directed to this sandbox before now. Nightw 04:42, 28 Fhttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Foreign_relations_of_the_Palestinian_National_Authority&action=edit&oldid=416363142ebruary 2011 (UTC)

The AE procedure was over YOUR actions, not mine. And the agreement at AE was that both of us, and that includes YOU - Night w, should discuss before implementing. I think you already failed to do this once or twice, but I hope you will improve your adherence to the agreement.

And anyway, I don't understand why you raise this issue - my comment above is part exactly of this process - I inform you and everybody reading this about potential changes - see the sandbox. As I said - I implemented there the latest agreements or proposals (in cases where I didn't have your response) of all the discussions on this talk page. In addition I continued with the improvements in mission sourcing (I think these are non-controversial edits, but since the article is under protection I work in the sandbox). You are welcome to comment on what you see there. Alinor (talk) 08:37, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not spending my precious time looking through a sandbox you've wasted the last few weeks on. If you want to suggest some changes, name them, and the reasons for them. That was what was required of you in the AE discussion, as an alternative to a topic-ban. Nightw 12:30, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

In the sandbox are the things discussed at this talk page, if you care to read & reply here it's fine, but you don't do that. And IMHO a somewhat more cooperative attitude is order.

The AE procedure was over YOUR actions (1RR breach). And it seems that you continue to refuse to comply with what was required of you in the AE discussion. Alinor (talk) 12:50, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

You can point fingers all you want, but if you violate the stipulation the admins placed upon you at the AE discussion, if you make edits without discussion first, then I'll have no choice but to report your behaviour. Tell me specifically what changes you want to make, and why you think they're necessary, and I'll respond. I'm not going on a spot-the-difference search through a lengthy sandbox. Nightw 13:21, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that the AE stipulation is placed upon both of us (it was started because of your 1RR violation, but that is not so important). So it concerns your changes too. I refrained from reporting your previous 1RR and 3RR violations (we talked at our talk pages about these), but if you continue to breach our AE agreement, then I'll have no choice but to report your behaviour.

I posted the Sandbox link in this section only because the Sandbox was necessitated by the article protection. All controversial changes are specifically discussed at the other sections. Where you don't reply I assume that you agree - I will stop putting reminders. Alinor (talk) 15:28, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid I cannot see your threats as anything but empty. Please show me the edit I have made that breached the AE agreement, and explain how it is that I am continuing to do so. I'm sorry, but silence means nothing. If you make an edit to the article without prior agreement, you've breached the agreement. For the fifth time now, if you have a change you want to make, let's hear it. Otherwise, I fail to see the purpose of this particular thread. Nightw 11:17, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

The agreement between you and me at the AE noticeboard about your breach of 1RR lodged not by me, but by a third user, this agreement was that we will discuss changes we want to do with the other editor before we do these. Before lodging the RFC you did changes without having consensus for them. I think this is not in-line with our agreement. Obviously you don't think so (or you don't care). I don't want to argue about your past behavior right now. What I say is - please keep to the agreement and discuss your changes before implementing them.

Silence means nothing, but we don't agreed to ignore each other, but to discuss the issues. If you refuse to do that you will be in breach of the agreement. Otherwise we can block each other and all changes one of us wants to make just by ignoring/not responding. So, when you don't reply on some change I will implement it. Of course then you can revert it and finally reply on the talk page "I reverted and I don't agree, because ..." But I prefer that we avoid such edit-revert cycles and discuss things at the talk page.

For the n-th time - this thread is not about a particular change - these are discussed in the rest of the sections. Alinor (talk) 08:07, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

OIC generalizing source RS/N

See Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Foreign_relations_of_Palestine_-_generalizing_source. Alinor (talk) 21:34, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Wow, that's a fairly lengthy post, even for you. Let's hope someone reads it. Nightw 05:58, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Would you comment on the discrepancy between your interpretation and the interpretation done by the journalists writing the sources we have?

I propose that we move the OIC note (or its respectively reworded variant) to the OIC section below and move Syria and Turkmenistan to "no SoP recognition". Alinor (talk) 06:53, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

No comment is needed because my interpretation isn't in the article. And Turkmenistan and Syria are supported by other sources, which unfortunately cannot be ignored. Nightw 08:44, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Comment is needed, because your interpretation is the only thing on which the usage of this generalizing claim hangs.

What other sources? If there were other sources we wouldn't have this conversation. Alinor (talk) 10:27, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

The Palestine News Network for one. And for Syria at least, Doebbler also cites its membership in the Arab League. Doebbler is still considered a reputable source on the subject, and we can only go off what the sources say. Nightw 19:53, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

This PNN mess is full of contradictions of other sources and of self-contradictions. Also, it doesn't say anything about Guyana, Syria, Turkmenistan, AL or OIC. Guyana, Syria and Turkmenistan are only seen on the map (of unknown origin and not exactly clear what it shows and why) along with Suriname and French Guiana colored the same. This map contradicts the text and also there are other contradictions and self-contradictions in this source - see my TLDR explanation. Quality of this source is very low and I don't think that we can use anything else from it, other than the Foreign minister direct quotes.

The lack of other sources showing Syria and Turkmenistan recognition is suspicious in itself.

Doebbler AL generalizing claim or Doebbler OIC generalizing claim - it doesn't matter, Doebbler statement is found to be wrong, so we can't rely on it. This is a generalizing statement, unsupported by any additional commentary (such as "AL/OIC decision xxx" or something else), posted by PNA-affiliated lawyer in an essay on a site whose vision is "An independent, democratic and sovereign Palestinian state, which grants Palestinians their basic rights, preserves their dignity, and enjoys international recognition and respect." We can't take such texts for granted, especially when they contradict official government websites. On the noticeboard is voiced agreement with not using the generalizing claims. Alinor (talk) 07:05, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

He may or may not have been wrong about the OIC. That does not then automatically mean he is also "wrong" about everything else. He also claims that Arafat used a letterhead that designated him as the "president of Palestine", and that Palestinians enjoy support from the overwhelming majority of states. Is he now wrong about these points also, simply because he may or may not have been wrong about something else? To suggest such, and remove him as a source on any and all claims he makes would be overstepping our responsibility as editors, which is to let the reader decide what's right and wrong. We are only able to display what the sources say. And on that note, the PNN is still a credible source regardless of your opinion, and it matches Doebbler's claims. Maybe you should bring that to the noticeboard? Nightw 07:27, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't say that he's automatically wrong about "everything" - if you ask him about the time he will probably answer fine. About President of Palestine and support from the overwhelming majority of states we have other more reliable sources to back these up, so it doesn't matter if Doebbler says that or not.

About the OIC generalizing recognition claim he was wrong - this is what the journalistic reports around the Guyana recognition show and I agree with them. Not a single source supports your far fetched interpretation of the Guyana government announcement. Guyana recognized SoP in 2011 and not in 2009 or before as Doebbler generalizing claims imply.

From the noticeboard - "Agree with you regarding Doebbler. I'd be cautious about using his post on a partisan website as a source for anything, but especially for facts regarding recognition." - he doesn't approve using the Doebbler essay post for anything (I have suggested that we restrict only the OIC/AL generalizing claims, but he goes further), but especially for facts regarding recognition. And we even don't speak even about straight statements, but about generalizing claims about a large and diverse groups of states. Add to this the lack of any other source supporting these claims in the particular cases of Syria and Turkmenistan - if we had another source we can just use it instead, but since we don't - we finally end with nothing to support our claim that Syria and Turkmenistan recognize SoP. Alinor (talk) 07:58, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

PNN is a website that "We report from a Palestinian perspective as we see that the media is rife with Israeli sources. We strive to empower the Palestinian people and their cause, particularly that of nonviolent resistance to occupation." I remember you complaining about Jerusalem post being Israeli-POVed and unsuitable for use. Does it have a similar mission statement or its is even less POVish?

If you like we can replace as source for Syria and Turkmenistan the Doebbler generalizing claim with the PNN map and then continue the discussion about the map/PNN source [14]. Agreed? Alinor (talk) 08:05, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

The PNN source in question here is not credible at all - when it comes to SoP recognition it includes multiple contradictions of much more reliable sources (official government websites of the states in question) and it includes self-contradictions and it has other flaws - read my TLDR comment linked above. Also, the text of this source doesn't say anything about Syria and Turkmenistan. These are just shown on a map (that uses blank map style very common on Wikipedia), with the same color as French Guiana (and different color from France) and this same map contains contradictions with the text of the PNN source.

I suggest that until we find a reliable source about Turkmenistan and Syria we should move these to "no SoP recognition". Alinor (talk) 08:22, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

The noticeboard result is not to use the generalizing claims. We should move Turkmenistan and Syria to "no SoP recognition" (Syria in "PLO relations") until we find a reliable source stating otherwise. Alinor (talk) 11:23, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

That's fine, just switch Doebbler with the PNN article and map. Nightw 15:53, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I will remove Doebbler generalizing claim (and move Syria and Turkmenistan accordingly) and then, if you have some source you can add it. PNN article doesn't say anything about Syria or Turkmenistan and I don't think the PNN map is reliable or useful here, but if you insist we can discuss that additionally. Alinor (talk) 19:49, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

No, I don't agree to moving these. Turkmenistan didn't recognise Israel until 1993, and Syria still doesn't. We have the PNN article as a source. It just needs to be added into the article, along with the other claims it reports from al-Malki. Nightw 06:28, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Turkmenistan and Syria will be moved - if a source stating that they recognize SoP isn't added.

The map is unreliable and contradicts itself, the article, official MFA websites and other sources. Also the PNN website itself is no less POVed than Jerusalem post that you complain about.

Where in the PNN article are mentioned Turkmenistan and Syria? Alinor (talk) 08:41, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Nobody has disputed the reliability of the PNN except you. Do you have a source that can place these states as not recognising the State of Palestine? It's not like you can just move something without a source to verify its placement. This shows selective bias on your part. Nightw 05:48, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

We don't work with "negative proofs" - in order to include some content we need a source. If we don't have a source we don't include the content. You can't add "Obama has been on Mars 5 times" and then object removal of this, because there is no source stating "Obama hasn't been on Mars".

What is your opinion on each of the multiple problems, contradictions with official websites, self-contradictions, inaccuracies, and the potential POV of the PNN source?

The PNN source doesn't say anything about Syria and Turkmenistan. We don't have another source for the position of Turkmenistan. That's why it will go into "There is no infomation available pertaining to the positions of:" (as the section "no recognition and no relations" has to be renamed - not because of Turkmenistan, but because all others that are listed there without a source saying "no recognition". I don't insist on doing that change, but it has some logic behind it, so let's do it). For Syria we have a source showing PLO relations, so it will go into that section. Alinor (talk) 08:16, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the last section needs renaming, but since there is a source claiming that Syria and Turkmenistan do recognise, and no sources that disagree with this, then it's still inconclusive. I don't have an issue with using the PNN in this case, since we're not technically claiming anything by putting these entries in the middle section. It's not up to you to rule that a source cannot be used. Take it to RSN if you have a problem with it. Nightw 12:30, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I'll may take the PNN to RS/N, no problem. But what prevents you from commenting on the issues with the PNN source that I pointed already? And please, show me the quote of the "source claiming that Syria and Turkmenistan do recognise" SoP. Alinor (talk) 13:04, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I'll wait for you to lodge a request at the noticeboard. Nightw 13:21, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Fine. When you add the PNN source over my clearly stated objection I may lodge it. Alinor (talk) 15:21, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Well I can't add it if you object to its use. But I don't agree to move the two cases it pertains to, since we have this source for them. So what now? Leave them with the Doebbler source until you lodge the request I suppose... Nightw 11:17, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

No. I will move Syria and Turkmenistan since Doebbler is not used anymore for these. Then, if you think you have a source stating that they recognize SoP - you will move them/add this source. And if I object it I will revert this particular change and we will discuss it here and/or at RS/N.

But you still haven't shown the quote from the "source claiming that Syria and Turkmenistan do recognise" SoP - so I actually don't know how do you propose to support their inclusion. Alinor (talk) 07:52, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Syria not accepting Palestinian passports [15]. It would be very odd combination if at the same time Syria has diplomatic relations with SoP or had already recognized it. Alinor (talk) 08:24, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Azerbaijan

New information about Azerbaijan:

In Azerbaijan will soon open the embassy of the State of Palestine [link].--analitic114 (talk) 13:23, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

i.e. Azerbaijan has a relationship and recognize the independent state of Palestine--analitic114 (talk) 13:23, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it seems so, good catch! Alinor (talk) 06:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Ukraine

Do you have any new information about Ukraine? And what I found only the embassy of Palestine (which - PNA or SoP) and congratulations to the President of the PNA--analitic114 (talk) 15:03, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Al Malki claims

As I said I would some time ago, I'd like to now put in some claims regarding recognition made by the Foreign Minister, as reported on 11 January 2011 in this article, namely:...

Palestinian Authority (PA) Foreign Minister Riad al-Malki told PNN on Sunday that the PA was aiming to have most of the world recognize an independent Palestinian state by September 2011 ... al-Malki said that "most nations" would recognize independent Palestine on its 1967 boundaries by September, including the European Union. ... al-Malki said, "There are preparations underway with the European Union to recognize a Palestinian State on the first of September. The Spanish Foreign Minister has told me that the European Union will recognize a Palestinian state by the beginning of September, and if it doesn't, Spain will be the first European country to announce its recognition. We are optimistic about it." ... Al-Malki said at least 110 nations currently recognize Palestine as a state with ambassador-level representation, according to Yasser Arafat's November 15, 1988 Declaration of Independence, made from Algeria. Forty-nine of Africa's 53 countries recognize the Palestinian state, as do all but three of Asia's 53 countries—Japan, South Korea, and Israel being the key holdouts. ... "When we began our diplomatic plans for international recognition, we found that the majority of countries that had recognized Palestine in 1988 were from Asia and Africa," said al-Malki. ... "We will focus on Mexico and work to achieve recognition from El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala and the Caribbean Islands." He said diplomatic efforts in the Caribbean would be aided by Cuba. "This is just part of the policy of the government of Mahmoud Abbas," said al-Malki, explaining that the Prime Minister had set a two-year deadline for statehood in September 2009.

...and also different claims from a more recent article from 3 March:

Some 150 countries will recognize a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders by September of this year, Palestinian Authority Foreign Minister Riyad al-Maliki said Wednesday. Maliki claimed that 10 more states in the Caribbean region will be declaring their recognition of Palestine this month. In an interview with The Media Line last week, the PA foreign minister said the Palestinians were on track to declaring an independent state by September. "Yes we are ready (for statehood). Are we ready for September? Absolutely," al-Maliki said.

Nightw 15:54, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the PNN source, please show an example of what text you want to the article and where. As explained here this PNN source is full of contradictions of official MFA websites, self-contradictions and other inaccuracies. Also, as explained here (08:05, 17 February 2011 comment and others) - the PNN is a website that "We report from a Palestinian perspective as we see that the media is rife with Israeli sources. We strive to empower the Palestinian people and their cause, particularly that of nonviolent resistance to occupation." (quote from their mission statement). You complained before about Jerusalem post being Israeli-POVed and I don't think PNN is an example of NPOV, on the contrary.

From PNN source I can accept adding information based on a direct quote of the Foreign minister (hoping that they didn't mistype it). Adding information based on PNN-writer interpretations of non-quoted Foreign minister words or of some other information of unknown origin - this doesn't seem suitable for use.

From the new source you give I don't object. What's interesting there is that the PNA Foreign minister speaks about recognition of "a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders" and "the PA foreign minister said the Palestinians were on track to declaring an independent state by September." (not quotes, but a Elior Levy interpretation, but let's assume it's correct). Then, Elior Levy says "The state of Palestine has so far been recognized mostly by South American nations, including Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay, Bolivia, Chile, Ecuador, Peru, Guyana and Uruguay." (let's leave aside the mistake with Uruguay). So, it isn't clear if these "a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders" recognitions are recognitions of "State of Palestine as declared in 1988" (the declaration doesn't mention any borders) or recognitions of "Palestine state right to exist within the 1967 borders". IMHO, the range of vaugness/bluriness of positions is big - maybe some of these "a Palestinian state in 1967 borders" positions (and relations mostly with the PNA) subsequently evolve into relations with and recognition of SoP-as-already-declraed-in-1988 (e.g. establishment of regular state embassy, etc.) - e.g. the PLO uses a step-by-step approach - first establishing relations between state XXX and the politically/status non-controversial PNA, then getting recognition of the PNA aim for "a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders" (more controversial, but in 2011 it seems pretty acceptable already), then establishing relations between state XXX and SoP (the most controversial step).

In addition there is the issue of the frequently referred to future September 2011 event. From what I read so far it seems that in September 2011 a Declaration of Statehood/Independence of sort would be issued and it's even weaklier implied that this declaration will be issued by the PNA. So far I don't remember the Foreign minister statements to refer to the 1988 SoP declaration of independence. But maybe the September 2011 declaration will use some language of re-affirmation of Palestinian rights, as already expressed in November 1988, etc. - or will be something about 1988 SoP adopting the PNA Basic law as the Constitution of the State of Palestine and re-affirmation of the sovereign rights and independence of the Palestinian people in the (1967 borders) West Bank and the Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as their capital city, etc. - let's wait and see.

The point is that maybe we should somehow distinguish (by note/sign/color/etc.) between "recognition of the State of Palestine as declared in 1988" and "recognition of (a) Palestine state right to exist (within 1967 borders)". Alinor (talk) 07:44, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Zimbabwe

Are the following references proof of diplomatic relations of Zimbabwe and the State of Palestine? [16] [17]--analitic114 (talk) 16:35, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

The first is about an "Ambassador of Palestine" to Kenya and Zimbabwe and even mentions the PLO, so this seems to me as PLO, the UN observer entity referred to as "Palestine". No SoP references here.

The second is more like a List of passports and thus maybe includes states that Zimbabwe doesn't recognize (for example it mentions Taiwan). Of course, it could be argued otherwise, but I think we should find a better source for Zimbabwe. Alinor (talk) 08:15, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Similar to Zimbabwe passport/visa list is [18] for St.Kitts and Nevis - it mentions both SoP and PRChina in "visa required", but we know for sure that St.Kitts and Nevis does not recognize PRChina. Alinor (talk) 08:18, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Belarus

On the new design of the Belarusian Foreign Ministry has found an interesting link - In Belarus is situated the embassy PNA, Belarus only supports a resolution establishing a Palestinian State (UN Security Council resolutions 181 (1947) and 1397 (2002))--analitic114 (talk) 20:40, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

For me it seems like Belarus, Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, Cyprus and some others don't recognize SoP. Maybe in 1988/89 they issued some vague statements of support/"recognition of Palestine state right to exist", interpreted by the UNESCO application authors as "recognition". But this is just mine assumption. I think we should either move such cases to the "inconclusive" section or "no official confirmation found" or mark them in some different way. Alinor (talk) 08:52, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Poland, Hungary, probably yes - but Cyprus will not agree. These references to the Russian president said on the recognition of Cyprus an independent state and an explanation of the representative of the administration's support for recognition of the Cypriot President in 1988, recognizing the independence of Palestine: [19] [20]--analitic114 (talk) 12:03, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

For Cyprus see above (13:49, 31 January 2011 comment) - the two sources you give most probably are about this meeting - the official Cyprus MFA report is about "support for the creation of a sovereign Palestinian state" and what its borders should be (1967) - I don't see anything showing that currently Cyprus recognizes SoP. And all other references at the Cyprus MFA site show PLO and PNA relations, no SoP references at all. Alinor (talk) 14:53, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I just interested in the reaction to document Belarus - published once on the MFA is specified on the relations with the PNA and none of which the recognition of an independent Palestinian gosudartsva think appropriate at least in the disputed provision (although the real situation in the relations with the PNA)--analitic114 (talk) 12:03, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree - let's move Belarus to "conflicting or inconclusive" or "PLO/PNA relations + no SoP recognition". Alinor (talk) 07:44, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I must commend Analitic for actually doing research, rather than just pushing an agenda with no intention to uphold any kind of factual accuracy. But, in addition to being listed as one of the states recognising Palestine on every list we have, you can also see it here that the ambassador was accredited to the State of Palestine. The first's term expired in September last year (source), and the ambassador is now Khalid Eriquat, who was previously the ambassador to Ukraine. Nightw 10:26, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Dear Nightw, that's why I'm asking you to clarify the truth! Perhaps they opened the Embassy as an embassy of the PNA, and later raised status to embassy of the State of Palestine. So what do you think, where would be more correct in all references to authoritative sources - in recognition of the State of Palestine, or in relations with the PNA?

Just as you can see, I'm working on a Russian version of this issue, and in the Russian section of the matter is busy I and another man, but he is + this expanding Jewish section (while I'm Estonian). Almost no one with whom to consult on controversial points.--analitic114 (talk) 12:32, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Night w, are you accusing me of "pushing an agenda with no intention to uphold any kind of factual accuracy."? You are the one willing to make changes without proper WP:RS and WP:V backing. Some of these of your changes were already rejected at the discussion page or noticeboards.

Analitic114, don't believe everything Night w says, I see the work you have done and I think you do it better than Night w and Alinor here.

On subject - the first link Night w gave above - mentions explicitly "State of Palestine" - so we finally have an official source to support Belarus inclusion in "recognize SoP" list. Alinor (talk) 15:38, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the consultation!--analitic114 (talk) 15:56, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Mission in Canada

Comrades! Does someone have a link to Mission of Palestine (General Delegation) in Canada? At the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Canada and the government website, I did not find this information! And at the Permanent Mission of Palestine to the UN is too inconsistent information! Help!--analitic114 (talk) 21:17, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Here there are: [21], [22], [23]. I added them here.

As you can see in the table we are missing sources for some other missions too. These articles maybe contain some of these missing sources. If you find something please post it here.

Do you have some additional information/sources about #Weakly supported in the recognizers section cases (khaki/gray) and those with "no information"? Maybe some Russian-language sources about Ukraine, Turkmenistan, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Transnistria positions? Alinor (talk) 08:51, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Ukraine, Turkmenistan, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Transnistria - no any new information.

Can see a reference to the Russian version (in your version is):

I do not know about you, but me convinced the Embassy of Palestine in any country. (according to that country)

• Tunisia - Tunisian foreign ministry website changed, the links do not work
• Afghanistan - there is no information
• Madagascar - No information
• Malta - [24] and [25]:

"He pointed out that this was the first such joint collaboration with Cyprus and in the spirit of its strong conviction of having an independent and sovereign state of Palestine living side by side with Israel in peace and security, Malta chose to open the two diplomatic representations."

It will convince you to recognize by Cyprus and Malta independent State of Palestine?

• Qatar - [26] Embassy of the state of Palestine
• With the United Arab Emirates is more complicated. UAE Ministry of Foreign Affairs at the bottom of the site have a table over there and have the embassy. Work on java, so I have not found the page.
• Brunei - the same information that you
• Sudan - the same link, there was also a SoP, but now is not as accessible. (most likely been removed)
• Egypt - [27] Palestinian Embassy, the Palestinian ambassador. The bilateral relationship has neither the PNA nor the SoP
• Guinea and Senegal - the link as you have, the site is being renovated.

Guinea-Bisua - no information about the following in Senegal (as well as the Foreign Ministry website)

• Ukraine - Palestinian Ambassador (whitch?)
• Burkina Faso - 20au% 20burkina.html 3Acommunique -du-conseil-des-ministres-du-mercredi-05-mars-2008 & catid = 5 & Itemid = 100001 de-la-tabaski-a-bamako - dans-la-bonne-tradition & catid = 23 & Itemid = 100088 Ambassador of the State of Palestine in Mali and Burkina Faso
• Comoros - Embassy of Palestine in Tanzania (ie, the Embassy of the State of Palestine in Tanzania) [28] embassies.htm
• Hungary and Poland - I moved in countries having diplomatic relations with the PNA
• Cape Verde, Niger - no information
• Chad and Togo - no information
• Laos - information as you have
• Congo, Sierra Leone, Uganda - no information
• Democratic Republic of Congo, Gabon, Sao Tome and Principe - no information
• Iran - a Palestinian embassy [29] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Analitic114 (talk • contribs) 10:50, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Cyprus - please see 14:53, 5 March 2011 comment above - the Cyprus MFA website doesn't include a single SoP reference - it has plenty PLO/PNA references and the "support for the creation of a sovereign Palestinian state"[30] statement. The Times of Malta news actually support that too - there is conviction about having such state [in the future] - but I don't see a statement that Cyprus already recognizes SoP [as declared in 1988].

Malta - the Malta MFA website doesn't include any explicit SoP reference, but at least mentions as National Day the 15th of November (day of adoption of the 1988 declaration of independence) - a circumstantial SoP reference (gray color). I would like to find a better source for Malta.

Qatar - the same link (in Arabic) - Google translator gives me "Embassy of Palestine in the State of Qatar". But I see now "National Day November 15", so we have a circumstantial SoP reference, but I would like to find a better source.

Burkina Faso - having as non-resident ambassador the Ambassador of SoP to Mali doesn't mean that Burkina Faso recognizes SoP or that the ambassador uses the title "SoP Ambassador" in relations with the Burkina Faso government. Unfortunately the Burkina Faso link doesn't specify if the ambassador is of PLO or SoP.

Comoros - the link shows relations with "Palestine" trough non-resident embassy based in Tanzania. Tanzania itself recognizes SoP, but this does not mean that Comoros also recognizes SoP. Anyway, the link can be used to change the non-resident embassy from Djibouti to Tanzania - maybe the accreditations changed. But I'm not sure which source is newer - the Comoros site (copyright 2004, but has some news items from March 2011) or the PLO UN delegation site ("UPDATED: 25 January 2011")...

Iran - the link shows "Palestinian ambassador", but unfortunately it's unclear if SoP or PLO. Alinor (talk) 10:10, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

representation of the PNA in other countries

Alinor! As you can see, I'm on the Russian version has replaced and updated the links on the representation of the PNA in other stranahi added, for example, a reference to Luxembourg [31]. May use if necessary!--analitic114 (talk) 12:24, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, added it. Alinor (talk) 09:34, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Georgia

In an interview to the Egyptian newspaper, Foreign Minister of Georgia stated that Georgia recognizes the independence of the State of Palestine (1992). Link to Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia:[32]--analitic114 (talk) 18:38, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The link you give has the following text "He added that Georgia recognised the Palestinian state in 1992 and has official ties with it." - this date is in line with [33] "Diplomatic relations between Georgia and Palestine were established on April 25, 1992" (unclear if State of Palestine or "Palestine"/PLO). But I don't see State of Palestine or "Palestine" in the "LIST OF COUNTRIES WHICH HAVE DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH GEORGIA" ([34]). The problem is that the source you found doesn't explicitly say "Georgia recognized the State of Palestine", but something that can be interpreted also as "Georgia recognized Palestinian state right to exist". On the other hand the additional words "...and has official ties with it" imply that it is "Georgia recognized the State of Palestine". But this contradicts with the lack of any Palestine reference in the official "LIST OF COUNTRIES WHICH HAVE DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH GEORGIA".

So, I propose that we move Georgia to "conflicting or inconclusive sources" section and color it gray (for "vague official source"). Alinor (talk) 08:59, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Ghanaweb.com

What do you consider the source ghanaweb? Simply it is valuable information [35] is about the Embassy of the State of Palestine in Ghana. Waiting for your opinion.

As for Angola - has put a temporary link to the Permanent Mission to the UN with a list of embassies in Angola (Embassy of the State of Palestine)--analitic114 (talk) 17:44, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

About Ghana - the same source is already used here as well, but it's just an unofficial list. Do you know a Ghana MFA/government/president website that has such information?

About Angola - if you refer to this it doesn't say "State of Palestine", but only "Palestine" - thus this can be reference also to the PLO - the UN observer entity referred to as "Palestine". Do you find "Embassy of the State of Palestine" in another Angola link? Alinor (talk) 08:41, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

For Angola yet nothing has been found!--analitic114 (talk) 22:54, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Uruguay

Uruguay has recognized Palestine as a sovereign state on March 15, 2011, and open an embassy on March 28. MauriManya (talk) 04:00, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Added and moved Uruguay to recognizer section. Let's hope that the March 28 relations establishment will include more straightforward wording. Alinor (talk) 08:57, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Recognition by Uruguay

[Here ] the Uruguayan Ministery of Foreign Affairs released a press note that states that the government told the PNA that it recongizes the State of Palestine according to UN General Assembly resolutions 181 and 3236 and the UN Security Council resolution 242. It states the wish of peaceful coexistence between Palestine and Israel with secure borders and regional cooperation. No precise borders are pushed, since this is an affair between those two states. Can anyone add this to the mega table? --190.135.66.11 (talk) 12:48, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Already done - see above 08:57, 16 March 2011 comment. The article is currently under protection, that's why this is done in a sandbox. Alinor (talk) 14:09, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Turkmenistan

All that I found - a few congratulatory emails, where Mahmoud Abbas is listed as:

Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization, Chairman of the Palestinian National Authority

Not sure if this is any help. Here are the links[36] [37] [38] [39] (Only in Russian)--analitic114 (talk) 14:41, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Abkhazia and South Ossetia now look, Nagorny Karabakh and Transnistria - neither of which has not yet found!--analitic114 (talk) 14:41, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Interesting Turkmenistan links. I assume that if it recognized SoP there would be "President of the State of Palestine" in addition to "PLO-leader, PNA-leader". So, I don't think we can use these to move Turkmenistan to recognizer or to PLO/PNA relations. Alinor (talk) 14:52, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

In a congratulation even though it was about good relations between our countries - here is a quote and translate: "On behalf of the Palestinian people and myself, I congratulate Your Excellency on Independence Day, we express our sincere gratitude for the support of the Palestinian people, the fraternal relations established between our peoples and countries and to assure Your Excellency of our commitment to strengthen and develop these relations." "От имени палестинского народа и от себя лично поздравляем Ваше Превосходительство с Днем независимости, выражаем искреннюю благодарность за поддержку палестинского народа, братских отношений, установившихся между нашими народами и странами, и заверяем Ваше Превосходительство в нашем стремлении укреплять и развивать эти отношения." Go to this link--analitic114 (talk) 15:05, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I would refrain from interpreting this as either recognition or some kind of official intergovernmental relations - it's about "fraternal relations", "support" and uses standard language applied for such congratulations statements. And then it's signed by PLO and PNA - unlike, for example, the Cameroon congratulations statement [40] that ends with "President of the State of Palestine Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization President of the Palestinian National Authority". Alinor (talk) 15:12, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I just pointed out what was, without any interpretation!--analitic114 (talk) 15:24, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I only say, that we shouldn't use it trough interpretation. Alinor (talk) 16:39, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

scrollbox

Analitic114, I have thought about adding a scrollbox for the references too - but at Template:Scrollbox there is a reminder: "This template should not be used in main article space"... Alinor (talk) 14:47, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I then saw. Just do not like when referentses too much space is useless to occupy! Sorry, not anymore a paste!--analitic114 (talk) 15:08, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

At the Russian version of the page I see yellow coloring on Tunis and Guinea. What does it mean? Alinor (talk) 15:06, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Just to the sites of Tunisia and Guinea (the links that were about relationships with SoP no access). For Tunisia, these links have not, in Guinea there are no access (I personally do not enter)--analitic114 (talk) 15:20, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Senegal

Senegal has an embassy of the State of Palestine. New Link [41]--analitic114 (talk) 12:03, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Good catch. Updated. Alinor (talk) 13:16, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Gambia

Found three such links:

• Accreditation of the Ambassador of Palestine (headquartered in Senegal) [42]
• Letter from the President of the State of Palestine, the leader of Senegal (the site of the Government of Gambia) [43]
• A letter of congratulations to President of the Gambia from the President of the State of Palestine [44]

Interested in your opinion--analitic114 (talk) 12:41, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

The first doesn't help. The third - seems like a not very well done translation and doesn't add anything to the second one. The second is similar to Cameroon case - congratulations from SoP President put on the MFA website of the host state - IMHO good enough for gray color (e.g. ambiguous official) - I updated the table with this one (but I would still prefer if we have an even better source - e.g. not prepared by SoP itself, albeit published at host state MFA). Alinor (talk) 13:20, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Burkina Faso

Found this such an interesting link [45]. Waiting for your opinions!--analitic114 (talk) 17:43, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

And here's another:[46]--analitic114 (talk) 18:56, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Updated with the second link from the president website. Alinor (talk) 09:49, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Comoros

All that is on the Comoros - the link to the site of the president [47]. At Meade has a page about the diplomatic missions in Comoros, but does not open. Here is at her link [48].--analitic114 (talk) 18:41, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

The missing links are [49] and [50], but Palestine is not mentioned there. Alinor (talk) 08:57, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Alinor, sorry, but there are indicated only located in the Comoros embassies and consulates. But many countries have embassies is not resident in other African countries. That's the problem! Maybe you'll find on this site is not a resident embassy?--analitic114 (talk) 10:41, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I know. We have two links showing non-resident "Ambassador/Embassy of Palestine" - see 10:10, 14 March 2011 comment above. And we have two problems here:

1. We don't know which link is newer - thus it's unclear if the ambassador is resident in Djibouti (per PLO UN delegation site) or Tanzania (per Comoros president site).
2. We don't have reference for State of Palestine, thus Comoros remains colored khaki/no official source for SoP recognition. Alinor (talk) 11:20, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Kuwait

Found for Kuwait yet this link. Perhaps help! [51]--analitic114 (talk) 19:10, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

What bothers me here is that the site uses quotation marks around SoP: Mr.Mahmoud Abbas is the President of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA) and the President of the "State of Palestine" .

In addition we have a SoP [52]. But at [53] there is no Embassy of SoP or even Embassy of Palestine listed - contrary to PLO UN delegation website list.

I suggest light gray color (ambiguous official source) for the link you found. Alinor (talk) 09:14, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Guinea

Ambassador of the State of Palestine in Guinea [54]--analitic114 (talk) 20:13, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Updated. Alinor (talk) 10:03, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Tunisia

All that new found about Tunisia - Ambassador of Palestine (or the Palestinian ambassador) in Tunisia: [55] [56] [57]--analitic114 (talk) 22:51, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

IMHO these point in the direction that Tunisia doesn't recognize SoP.

"On the invitation of President Ben Ali, the Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) Executive Committee and Palestinian National Authority President Mahmoud Abbas arrived on Thursday" (mentioned the PLO and PNA titles, but omitted the "President of the State of Palestine" title that is used in other similar announcements by states that recognize SoP)

"Tunisia’s unwavering support to the Palestinian cause and its back-up to the Palestinian people to establish their independent State." - seems like support for Palestine state right to exist, not as recognition of the 1988 declared State of Palestine. Alinor (talk) 09:25, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

UAE

Bilateral relations between the UAE and the State of Palestine [58]--analitic114 (talk) 23:41, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

UAE Ambassador to Jordan and not resident in the State of Palestine [59]--analitic114 (talk) 23:47, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Updated with the MFA source. Alinor (talk) 10:04, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Sudan

• Sudan - no any new links.--analitic114 (talk) 01:17, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

angola

Everything that still able to find new about Angola - This one link [60]--analitic114 (talk) 13:25, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

And this[61] [62]--analitic114 (talk) 13:27, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

If you want you can still search in these pages [63] [64]--analitic114 (talk) 15:27, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't see anything that we can do with these. Alinor (talk) 17:18, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Updates and changes

The article's protection has expired. Uruguay has since recognised, so it'll need to be moved, with the appropriate sources. I'm somewhat conflicted after all the pedantry that went into it, but I think the attached note can be removed. I also said I'd fix up Eliko's sourcing work (the same url is provided twice). Are there any other changes or updates that need to be made? Anyone have any new sources they'd like to add? Please bring them to this thread first. Nightw 14:47, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there are many other things - you can check the discussion threads above and respond if you oppose some of the changes there. Alinor (talk) 17:14, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

It is insulting to ask such question on the bottom of a page full of discussions about changes. Alinor (talk) 18:51, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately I can't navigate my way through that mess. Please provide a list of things you'd like to change, or a sandbox, and then I shall address them together. Nightw 05:24, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Are there any objections to the removal of the Uruguay note and my fixing up Eliko's referencing? Nightw 09:13, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

There is a sandbox since very long time and you are well aware of it. Please don't pretend otherwise. It is a result of all the discussion sections above. Alinor (talk) 09:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I will remove the Uruguay note there right now and place it here

Uruguay pre-recognition note

In April 2010, Uruguayan Foreign Affairs Minister Luis Almagro and PNA Foreign Minister Riyad al-Malki signed a joint communiqué formalising relations. In September, Uruguayan President José Mujica announced his intentions to recognise the Palestinian state in the following year. In November, it was reported that he had announced his government's recognition of the Palestinian state during the sixteenth conference of the Federation of Arab-American Entities (Ferab), held in Montevideo that month. However, later reports have shown that Mujica is actually expected to make these arrangements in March 2011, in line with his original announcement.

About Eliko referencing - please contact him or at least put it on the talk page first. This is a controversial issue. Alinor (talk) 09:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Do you have objections to something in the sandbox? And please see analitic114 13:05, 17 March 2011 question to you above.Alinor (talk) 09:39, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll reply soon. The edits to Eliko's referencing aren't controversial, and he's already seen me do it elsewhere. I'm essentially pasting the markup from Israel, Palestine, and the United Nations, where we corroborated the final markup. He's free to revert if he sees fit. Nightw 09:55, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

If you have sorted out the edits to Eliko's referencing with him, then fine. Alinor (talk) 12:29, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Map update

Please could someone update the map underneath the table to include Uruguay. I don't know how to do it. Tggs3141 (talk) 19:34, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Argentina

Information from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Argentina about the recognition of a Palestinian state [65]--analitic114 (talk) 19:08, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Added and changed color from khaki (unofficial) to gray (official ambiguous).

It's interesting that they don't use a single time the "del Estado de Palestina" (as Paraguay does [66]), but instead use "Palestina como un estado libre e independiente". The note is also send to PNA president, not to SoP president. And then, they say "El gobierno argentino comparte con sus socios del MERCOSUR Brasil y Uruguay que ha llegado el momento de reconocer a Palestina como un estado libre e independiente." and don't mention the fourth MERCOSUR member, Paraguay, the single one where we have an official source about recognition of "del Estado de Palestina" (the State of Palestine). Maybe this mean that Argentina position is slightly different from Paraguay position. This will be answered when/if SoP opens an embassy. Alinor (talk) 06:56, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

The State of Palestine has had an embassy in Argentina for years. 1, 2, 3. Nightw 03:25, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, so the recognition is not from Dec10, but from earlier time and the Dec2010 note is some kind of "re-iteration" (like Paraguay did in 2011, but cared to also mention the date of the initial 2005 recognition)? I would like to have a specific date of SoP recognition or of establishing of diplomatic relations SoP-Argentina or announcement of the receiving of accreditation documents by the first Ambassador of the State of Palestine or about the establishment of the Embassy of the State of Palestine - from the central authorities (the links above are from some provinces authorities). Anyway, I made the respective changes to Argentina (in the sandbox) - to regular color (official source about SoP recognition). Alinor (talk) 10:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

RfC: Describing Uruguay's pending recognition of Palestine

There's a disagreement in preference here about how to present this situation. Here are two revisions of a note to go in the article Foreign relations of the Palestinian National Authority, with the proposing editor listed beside it. The note was originally (and still is) written using the first version, while the second version is a proposed revision.

Version 1: Night w (talk · contribs)

In April 2010, Uruguayan Foreign Affairs Minister Luis Almagro and Palestinian Foreign Minister Riyad al-Malki signed a joint communiqué formalising relations between their two nations. In November, it was reported that Uruguayan President José Mujica had announced his government's recognition of the Palestinian state during the sixteenth conference of the Federation of Arab-American Entities (Ferab), held in Montevideo that month. He had initially announced his intentions to do so in September. However, later reports have shown that Mujica is now expected to make these arrangements in March 2011.

Version 2: Alinor (talk · contribs)

In April 2010, Uruguayan Foreign Affairs Minister Luis Almagro and PNA Foreign Minister Riyad al-Malki signed a joint communiqué formalising relations. In September Uruguayan President José Mujica announced his intentions to recognise the Palestinian state in 2011. In November, it was reported that he had announced his government's recognition of the Palestinian state during the sixteenth conference of the Federation of Arab-American Entities (Ferab), held in Montevideo that month. However, later reports have shown that Mujica is actually expected to make these arrangements in March 2011, in line with the previous announcement for recognition in 2011. Uruguay President José Mujica is expected to make arrangements for recognition of the State of Palestine in March 2011.

References

The differences are extremely minor, but discussion hasn't yielded any compromise between the two. Third opinions would be greatly appreciated. Nightw 16:36, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, I may have missed something, but this is my take on the differences that I can see:

• The first sentence is better in Alinor's version. The Ref only mentions the PNA, so it's probably best to use PNA and drop the "...between their two nations."
• I don't see any reason to exclude the second sentence in Alinor's version: "In September Uruguayan President José Mujica announced his intentions..."
• I don't see the use of the last sentence in Alinor's version, since it just repeats previously stated stuff: "Uruguay President José Mujica is expected to make arrangements for ..."

Of course I haven't followed the discussion on this above, as I don't have the desire to read through all of the bickering between you two, so maybe I'm missing something. If there is a specific reason why you are opposed to each others version, as opposed to just length/formatting, it might be helpful if you gave a brief explanation here so that other editors know what the dispute is really over. TDL (talk) 19:08, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's it basically. My aim in the redaction for version2 is to order the events chronologically. Night w version hops back-and-forth in time.

I agree, the PNA and "two nations" are also important details.

Of course the last sentence in version2 is redundant. I scratched it. Alinor (talk) 19:19, 17 February 2011 (UTC) Later Night w re-added it. Alinor (talk) 20:13, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I believe this is a misleading semantic distinction. The PNA is the government of the State of Palestine, which has significant international recognition. An agreement between the governments of nations is universally regarded to be an agreement between the nations themselves, as their respective governments are representative of their nations on the international stage. Changing 'Palestinian' to 'PNA' makes about as much sense as changing 'Uruguayan' to 'Government of the Eastern Republic of Uruguay'.

Remember that the source is a country that does not yet recognise the Palestinian state, and as such it is worded accordingly. Note also, however, that except for the heading, the source refers to the Government of the Eastern Republic of Uruguay rather than the country itself. This is common diplomatic language and shouldn't be taken as a signal that the agreement was with the PNA but not with the Palestinian state.

NightW's first sentence should remain (with 'their' being changed to 'the' for a more detached flow), and Alinor's chronological reordering should be used for the remainder. For the last sentence, I would suggest rewording very slightly:

However, later reports showed that Mujica is expected to make these arrangements in March 2011, in line with his original announcement.

I think this flows better and does so more concisely. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 00:12, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the proposed rewording of the last sentence (I didn't phrase it in this way initially, because the original announcement wasn't specifying March 2011, but 2011 in general - if nobody objects I'm fine with using the TechnoSymbiosis wording)

But I need to make one correction. PNA is not the government of SoP. This is a common misconception (look at the current article and at the State of Palestine for details and sources). And that's why we should use what the sources say (e.g. PNA) and not reword sources text into "Palestine" that is unclear. Alinor (talk) 09:35, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with removing the reference to "nations", and with the add-on to the last sentence. But I don't like the flow on Alinor's version; to me, it reads like a timeline (in April..., in September..., in November...) rather than proper prose. And I don't see why things need be presented in timeline fashion. Nightw 16:30, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Night w, I don't insist on the "in ..., in ..., in ..." phrases, but I insist on ordering the events chronologically (propose another wording compliant with that if you like). There is no reason to describe events that happened in November, then go back to events happened in September, etc. Your version is hoping back-and-forth in time and this is inappropriate. In the redacted version the result is also more firmly underlined. Alinor (talk) 20:10, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

• (From RfC): The primary reason for a government to seek recognition as a state is because it currently lacks some recognition; it's not at all clear that PNA will be successful in gaining statehood for Palestine. As such, I have to agree with Alinor that using the term PNA instead of Palestine when referring to the government and its representatives is more appropriate, even though by being representatives of the PNA, they are also ipso facto Palestinian. I also think that the wording of the revision is a bit clearer. siafu (talk) 16:27, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. Please see slightly modified RFC description that Night w reverts. Alinor (talk) 17:29, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I think the correct and impartial description of the RFC should be: "There's a disagreement in preference here about how to present this situation. Here are two revisions of a new footnote to go in the article Foreign relations of the Palestinian National Authority, with the proposing editor listed beside it. The note was initially written by Night w, while Alinor made some redactions presented in the second version." and the description of version2 should be "Version 2: Alinor (talk · contribs) - redaction to order the events chronologically and doesn't hop back and forth in time. The final result is also more firmly underlined." Alinor (talk) 20:13, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Just to make it clear - the stable version is [67] (see my 13:20, 10 February 2011 comment) - Night w don't agree with some of my changes and I don't agree with some of his changes; A version with NEITHER is this linked here. One of the Night w changes is the addition of the Uruguay note (as version1). Alinor (talk) 20:47, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

• Night w, what you did is basically the following: 1. push your non-consensus text in the article; 2. lodge RFC about it; 3. Prevent others restoring the stable version of this text during the RFC period. Alinor (talk) 15:17, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

So that leaves the following version, which I'm roughly okay with:

• In April 2010, Uruguayan Foreign Affairs Minister Luis Almagro and PNA Foreign Minister Riyad al-Malki signed a joint communiqué formalising relations. In September, Uruguayan President José Mujica announced his intentions to recognise the Palestinian state in the following year. In November, it was reported that he had announced his government's recognition of the Palestinian state during the sixteenth conference of the Federation of Arab-American Entities (Ferab), held in Montevideo that month. However, later reports have shown that Mujica is now expected to make these arrangements in March 2011, in line with his original announcement.

I'd still like to get rid of the "in april, in september, in november" crap as it doesn't read well to my ears. Nightw 15:50, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Just one issue - you missed one little correction to the last sentence that underlines the end result: "However, later reports have shown that Mujica is now actually expected to make these arrangements in March 2011, in line with his original announcement."

As I said - if we keep the chronological ordering of the events we can use some other wording instead of "in ..., in ..., in ..." if it bothers you so much - but I don't have ideas for such other wording, and actually I don't find your 15:50, 19 February 2011 proposal problematic. Alinor (talk) 20:33, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Okay, well scratch the "now" and switch the note over. I can fix up the wording later. Nightw 09:52, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Weakly supported in the recognizers section

In light of the above two discussions I will list here the recognizers included in the first section, that are backed by "not-so-strong evidence":

• not backed at all
  • Georgia - propose to move it to "PLO/PNA relations" [68] moved. Alinor (talk) 07:44, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Azerbaijan - backed by a dead link (also even if it was online it would be weak - not an official Azerbaijan government page). Has also official source for relations with "Palestine". Azerbaijan MFA - no SoP reference found

I found this. It seems (based on the translations I've done) that the date we have (15.4.1992) was the date of establishing relations with the PNA/PLO as opposed to the state. Fələstin Muxtariyyəti = Palestine autonomy = PNA? It would be nice to have a native speaker look at the doc. TDL (talk) 09:07, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

It seems so, but of course in 1992 there was no PNA... As the text is written in 2007 or later - maybe PLO and PNA got mixed up. There are some abbreviations - maybe one of them is a translation of "PLO"? The more important question is - do you find anywhere in the text a word translated into "state" (to check for State of Palestine/independent state/etc.)? Anyway, we don't have any source showing SoP recognition/relations with Azerbaijan. The dead link that we have was about "SoP Embassy to Uzbekistan, Central Asia and Azerbaijan" and was not on the Azerbaijan MFA site. It is quite possible that SoP Embassy/Ambassador to Uzbekistan is also accredited as "Palestine/PLO Ambassador to Azerbaijan". If we don't find any SoP reference I propose that we move Azerbaijan to "inconclusive" (because we still use the Doebeller dubious generalizing claim that all OIC members recognize SoP as the single reason for keeping some states in the "inconclusive" section instead of moving them to "PLO/PNA relations" or "no SoP recognition"). Alinor (talk) 09:39, 31 January 2011 (UTC) SoP reference - [69]. Alinor (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

• backed by UNESCO, but only by listing - without a date
  • Equatorial Guinea - nothing more than UNESCO without a date. MFA website?
  • Sao Tome and Principe - nothing more than UNESCO without a date. MFA website?
  • Benin - embassy/ambassador source not mentioning SoP. Benin MFA
  • Gambia - embassy/ambassador source not mentioning SoP. MFA website? Added [70], better source still needed (see below). Alinor (talk) 13:23, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Kenya - embassy/ambassador source not mentioning SoP. Kenya MFA
  • Lebanon - PLO representation/mission instead of SoP embassy (the only non-recent recognizer with mission type other than embassy - if we don't count Cyprus that is doubtful itself); potential reason for lack of SoP recognition - refugee camps. More backing needed. Lebanon MFA

    [71] from Nov 2008 quotes Lebanon minister saying "The cabinet has approved the establishment of diplomatic relations with the state of Palestine" (I don't have access to the rest of the article). [72] from Nov 2008 says the same and continues that the PLO office will be transformed into SoP embassy, but that the minister hasn't specified when this will happen. Alinor (talk) 14:06, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

    Recognition is unilateral act: "We, the government of XXX, today decide to recognize YYY as state". Establishment of diplomatic relations is bilateral act - XXX and YYY sign some documents, etc. (such as [73]). So, Lebanon decided in 2008 to establish relations with SoP, but has it implemented this decision already? Have they established bilateral relations, or this is still pending? The other question is whether Lebanon recognizes SoP since 1988/1989 - or back then it has issued only a statement of support and not about recognition? (similar to the Cyprus case). Alinor (talk) 07:52, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

    Lebanon not accepting Palestinian passports [74]. Alinor (talk) 08:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• backed by UNESCO list with a date, but no diplomatic relations yet (or no source for the relations)
  • Madagascar - Madagascar MFA
  • Cape Verde - MFA website?
  • Togo - MFA website?
  • Sierra Leone - Sierra Leone MFA
  • Congo, Republic of - MFA website?
  • Gabon - MFA website?
  • Botswana - Botswana MFA
  • Nepal - Nepal MFA (bad link?)
  • Burundi - MFA website?
  • Central African Republic - MFA website?
  • Bhutan - Bhutan MFA
  • Rwanda - Rwanda MFA
• other doubts
  • Cyprus - backed by UNESCO with date, but recent claims about "Spain/France to be the first Western European recognizer" warrants additional backing. Cyprus office in Ramallah - PNA, Other missions - General delegation of Palestine (National day - January 1 - Revolution Day (1965) - typical PLO/PNA "national day" - instead of SoP day 15.11.1988). Very suspicious - not a single SoP mention and instead having PNA/PLO non-SoP references. The only other non-recent recognizer with mission type other than embassy is Lebanon (doubtful itself). Move to "inconclusive"? Cyprus MFA

    Following multiple news reports that Cyprus recently recognized SoP I found [75] on the Cyprus MFA. Quote of the minister words "I had the opportunity to be briefed on the difficulties that stand in the way of the process and, of course, to reiterate Cyprus’ support for the creation of a sovereign Palestinian state, without accepting any changes to the pre-1967 borders unless otherwise agreed by the two parties..." No "Cyprus recognizes the State of Palestine" - he speaks about support for the eventual creation of such state. Having, this statement, in combination with all other marks from the MFA site above that Cyprus doesn't recognize SoP - I think we should move Cyprus to "PLO/PNA relations, no SoP recognition". This also shows that we should not rely on unofficial interpretations (by journalists, bloggers, laweyrs, etc.) about the position of one or another state. Alinor (talk) 13:49, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Malta - backed by UNESCO with date, but recent claims about "Spain/France to be the first Western European recognizer" warrants additional backing. Malta office in Ramallah, [76], [77], Embassy of Palestine - nowhere can I find "State of Palestine", but at least as National day they list 15 November (the 1988 Independence day). Still, more backing is needed. Malta MFA
  • Philippines - the only case we have of closed SoP embassy downgraded to Consulate General and then closed. Sources showing SoP (both official and unofficial), but the official sources are outdated (showing consulate-general, that is now closed) - no recent official source with SoP reference. More backing needed. Philippines MFA
  • Jordan - backed by UNESCO with date; better source needed because of Lebanon/Syria uncertainty; additional reason for non-recognition - former claim over West Bank, big Palestinian population. More backing needed. Found [78] Alinor (talk) 13:14, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Egypt - backed by UNESCO with date; better source needed because of Lebanon/Syria uncertainty (of all SoP neighbors so far we have confirmation only for Jordan); additional reason for non-recognition - former claim over Gaza Strip. More backing needed. Egypt MFA (no SoP reference found). --Alinor

    That's what I found [P - Palestine]--analitic114 (talk) 10:49, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

    This shows "Palestine Embassy" - unclear if this is of the 'PLO, the UN observer entity designated "Palestine"' or of the "State of Palestine". In the other list of missions we have 2 offices serving "Palestinian Territories in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip" - again, no SoP reference. Alinor (talk) 06:43, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

    MFA website updated, but missions list no yet uploaded; above link is dead. Alinor (talk) 17:54, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

  • South Africa - SoP Embassy [79], but National day listed is 29 November instead of 15 November (at least it's not 1 January, the "national day" listed typically for PNA/PLO). More backing needed. More SoP references [80], [81] (description of relations) and even [82], [83]. Alinor (talk) 10:43, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Cameroon - included in unofficial list(s) of SoP recognizers that contradict the MFA pages of another states. No official confirmation. Cameroon MFA.SoP President congratulations found, but more backing still needed. Alinor (talk) 22:10, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
  • various more - backed by unofficial sources about SoP relations/recognition, official MFA page has no SoP reference - only "Palestine"/PLO/PNA or no Palestine reference at all. More backing needed.
    • Costa Rica (Costa Rica MFA)[84], Argentina (Argentina MFA)[85], Bolivia (Bolivia MFA), Suriname (MFA website?). Alinor (talk) 10:43, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
  • various more - backed by UNESCO with date plus "Embassy" by [86] (no SoP reference here - and this list is known to contradict official MFA pages of some host states about the mission name - embassy vs. general delegation/other; this is list maintained by the PLO/"Palestine" UN delegation - thus it maybe lists "Embassies of PLO/Palestine, the UN observer" and not "Embassies of SoP") - and nothing more. More backing needed.
    • Algeria[87], Bahrain[88], Indonesia[89] (UNESCO source is off by a day), Iraq[90], Kuwait (MFA website mentions SoP in the Arab department - but no SoP Embassy or PLO mission in the missions list, contrary to PLO UN delegation site), Libya[91], Mauritania[92], Morocco[93], Somalia (MFA website, no SoP mentioned), Tunisia (MFA website, no SoP mentioned, "Palestine relations"), Cuba[94], Nicaragua[95], Qatar (MFA website, "Embassy of Palestine", "National day - 15 november" - circumstantial SoP reference, better source still needed), Saudi Arabia[96], Zambia (MFA website?), Albania[97], Djibouti (MFA website?), Sudan (MFA website, "Embassy of Palestine"; SoP representative mentioned more backing needed), Egypt (MFA website, missions list no yet uploaded), Nigeria[98], Guinea (MFA website?), PRChina[99], Comoros (MFA website?), Guinea-Bissau (MFA website?), Senegal (MFA website[100], missions page under construction?), North Korea[101], Niger (MFA website?), Maldives[102], Zimbabwe (MFA website, no missions/relations list), Chad (MFA website?), Uganda (MFA website, no SoP reference found), Angola (MFA website, no relations/missions list found), Mozambique[103], Oman (MFA website, "Embassy of the Republic of Palestine (Palestinian)"), Ethiopia[104], Iran (MFA website, no relations/missions list found)
  • various more - backed by UNESCO with date plus unofficial "SoP relations/embassy" source and "Embassy/Ambassador of Palestine" on MFA page, but without SoP reference (thus this may be a reference to PLO/"Palestine, the UN observer"). More backing needed.
    • Belarus (Belarus MFA) [105], Hungary (Hungary MFA)
  • various more - backed by UNESCO with date plus "Embassy/Ambassador of Palestine" on MFA page, but without SoP reference (thus this may be a reference to PLO/"Palestine, the UN observer". More backing needed.
    • Afghanistan (Afghanistan MFA), Malaysia (dead link)[106], Ukraine (Ukraine MFA), Mali[107][108], Laos (MFA website?)
    • Poland - Poland MFA has no SoP reference; see below for email from Poland MFA that says "no recognition"
    • Brunei ("Ambassador of Palestine" resident in Malaysia mentioned[109], SoP reference, but Brunei MFA doesn't list SoP or other Palestine non-resident mission - more backing needed).
    • Burkina Faso - Burkina Faso MFA has no SoP reference, but only "Palestine"; this jurisdiction list refers to "Palestinian territories" (responsibility of Cairo embassy)
  • various more - backed by UNESCO with date plus unofficial "SoP relations/embassy" source (especially weak if official MFA page doesn't include any Palestine references). More backing needed.
    • Bangladesh[110], Jordan[111], Pakistan[112], Sri Lanka[113], Romania[114], Tanzania[115]
    • UAE (MFA website)
    • Ghana (MFA website?)
  • various more - backed by official announcements of recognition that seem like SoP recognition - statements about 'recognizing Palestine state', but in sounds vague and doesn't explicitly arrange in neither option1 nor option2 of 09:00, 22 January 2011 comment below. Maybe when/if the mission type is changed to embassy of SoP this will get additional support/clarification by the official MFA missions list mentionings.
    • Brazil, Ecuador, Chile, Peru, Uruguay
    • Argentina [116] for most states gives their full name (such as "Republic of Italy", etc.), but for Palestine gives only "Palestine" (that could be a reference to the PLO - this is its UN designation), but at the same time [117] gives "Ambassador of the State of Palestine". A better source is needed (see also below). Alinor (talk) 10:13, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
  • mission types supported only by [118] - this is known to contain some incorrect namings (such as "embassy" instead of "delegation" or "delegation" instead of "office", etc.) Alinor (talk) 13:34, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
  • unsourced mission types - to be checked at the respective MFA pages
• In addition I agree that we change "There is no information available pertaining to the positions of:" into "The State of Palestine is not recognised by and the PLO and PNA have no official relations with:" (Night w has made such edits recently) Done. Alinor (talk) 07:44, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I think we should aim to get the above backed by additional sources explicitly mentioning SoP. I haven checked all MFA pages yet. In addition the recent recognizers with mission types other than SoP Embassy (e.g. delegation, PLO embassy, etc.) - Venezuela, Brazil, Argentina, Ecuador, Chile, Guyana - I expect that these would get SoP embassies sooner or later - MFA pages need to be checked and table to be updated (Guyana and Chile are hard, because they list 'embassy' for the 'PLO/"Palestine" embassies' even before SoP recognition). Alinor (talk) 22:37, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

• Not weakly backed, but seem wrongly arranged (backed by official "SoP relations/embassy" source, but date of recognition and/or relations not specified)
  • Kyrgyzstan (if we don't use the Nov1995 information below - even if we use it we need a source). Kyrgyzstan MFA
  • Tajikistan (it seems to be 1994, but no source for that). Tajikistan MFA
  • Cameroon (arranged in "2010 or before" only because that is the date of SoP president congratulations). Cameroon MFA.
  • Ivory Coast (arranged in "2008 or before" only because that is the timestamp on the MFA page about SoP) - we need to find better dates for these. Ivory Coast MFA

Night w, because you asked above about criteria - here is my opinion. The best evidence that XXX recognizes SoP is if its official website supports this claim. In the best case we would have A] the official document about "recognition of the State of Palestine as declared in 1988" or at least "recognition of the State of Palestine" (or establishing diplomatic relations with the State of Palestine) with date - plus B] a source from the recognizer MFA about "State of Palestine" embassy/ambassador/diplomatic relations/recognition. Less worthy is either A] or B] without the other - or instead of official document some official MFA press release/announcement. Even less - journalistic interpretation of MFA press release (because here we can't be sure about nuances such as "recognizes Palestine state right to exist", "supports the establishment of Palestine state and recognizes the PLO", etc. that could be interpreted wrongly as "recognizes SoP" - or "will recognize SoP in 2011" to be wrongly interpreted as "recognizes SoP"). Somewhere around this level is A] or B] with the other supported by generic "Palestine embassy/ambassador/relations/recognition" without reference to SoP - at least one of the two should have clear and specific reference to SoP - because "Embassy of Palestine" may refer to Palestine PLO/PNA instead of Palestine SoP. Somewhere around this level is UNESCO list (or other list from organization where all/most listed states are members - but we don't have such) dated state backed by generic "Palestine ..." (no SoP reference in the second source). UNESCO list dated state backed by second SoP source from XXX MFA is somewhere above "A] or B]", but below "A] and B]". Below UNESCO list dated state with second generic "Palestine ..." source is UNESCO dated state without any second source. Even less - UNESCO list non-dated state with second generic "Palestine ..." source. Even less - UNESCO list non-dated state with no second source (only Eq.Guinea). Of course we can't avoid some specific cases where more attention should be paid (e.g. we should climb up the ladder described here by finding sources closer to the "best case") for various reasons - see above - Lebanon, Cyprus, Malta, Philippines, etc.

In the inconclusive section can go states with conflicting sources of similar value (e.g. two journalistic reports), but if higher value source (e.g. official MFA page) is found it can resolve the issue. Here come also states backed ONLY by "just list" in some interpretative work (e.g. not document of organization where all/most listed states are members) of journalist/lawyer/analyst/blogger/etc. that draws its conclusions from unknown sources (of course an obscure blogger is less valuable than famous journalist - but still such source remains 'interpretative work just list'). Such "just list" sources that contradict official MFA pages or other sources of higher value or contain mistakes or self-contradictions (e.g. show lack of attention to detail, prone to have other unnoticed mistakes) go even lower - and IMHO should not be used as ONLY backing (even if we find a zillion of practically the same "just lists" interpretative works - this is still backing ONLY by such lists - without any higher value source) - even for the "inconclusive" section. If the "just list" has dates of recognition it is more valuable that one without dates (but we don't have such). Then we come again to the specific cases - the Lesotho obscure source and the Doebeler generalizing claim. I won't object moving Lesotho out, but it can also stay in "inconclusive" if you insist. About Doebeler generalizing claim you know my opinion - I didn't believe it from the start - it looks like easily thrown out statement - that is generally true, but not 100%. There is no explanation why it should be true given in the Doebeler source, no reference to AL/OIC rule that "all member states should recognize each other" or whatever. Anyway, it was proven wrong by Guyana - but I know you still try find a way to object that. I don't think that we should use the Doebeler source (because it contradicts Guyana official statement) - but also I think we should not use other generalizing statements (such as "All OIC/AL/Africa/Asia/Oceania/Caribbean/etc. states recognize SoP") if we find such - because it is so easy to miss some 'obscure' state when making such statement - recognizers should be at least mentioned by name. Alinor (talk) 14:01, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

• reconizer states with no SoP mission yet - we should keep an eye on if those change to SoP embassies (this would also remove any doubts between option1 and option2 of 09:00, 22 January 2011 comment below):
  • Cyprus (general delegation) - Cyprus MFA
  • Lebanon (representation) - Lebanon MFA
  • Costa Rica (PLO embassy) - Costa Rica MFA
  • Venezuela (mission) - Venezuela MFA
  • Brazil (special delegation) - Brazil MFA
  • Argentina (ambassador mission) - Argentina MFA
  • Bolivia (none) - Bolivia MFA
  • Ecuador (delegation, non-resident) - Ecuador MFA
  • Chile (PLO embassy/representation) - Chile MFA
  • Guyana (PLO Embassy, non-resident) - Guyana MFA
  • Peru (special delegation) - Peru MFA
  • Suriname (none) - MFA website?
  • Uruguay (none) - Uruguay MFA

Having in mind controversies about the positions of Malta, Cyprus, Lebanon (see above in this section); Guyana pre-2011 ([119]) and this is related also to "generalizing statements"; Poland (see below and File:Answer of Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs.jpg); Vatican, Austria, Greece - commonly wrongly mentioned as recognizers; weakly-supported cases in this section; confirmed cases of "Embassy of Palestine"/"Ambassador of Palestine" that refer to PLO (as "Palestine, the UN observer entity") instead of SoP (pre-2011 for Chile and Guyana) - I think that we should strive for sources with highest possible quality - and try to find at least one official source (Government/MFA website or direct quote) with reference to "State of Palestine" for each state in the recognizers list. The sources should be capable of clearing any doubts about the state XXX position over SoP between the two options that commonly cause misunderstandings:

1. XXX recognizes SoP as state-in-exile, that is entitled to eventually control a territory/population, and until that moment it gets full diplomatic treatment as state, including embassies established in the name of the SoP GiE, etc. symptoms: references to "State of Palestine" in the embassies/ambassadors/relations/recognitions lists; National day: 15 November 1988 - Independence day
2. XXX recognizes Palestine state right to exist, its entitlement to eventually control a territory/population, but until that moment 1988-SoP is not recognized as state, the SoP GiE is not recognized as representative of the 'eventual Palestine state'. Until that moment XXX deals only with the PLO/"Palestine, the UN observer entity" and with the PNA established by it - but not with "PLO-as-1988-SoP-GiE". symptoms: references to "Palestine"/PLO/PNA/"Palestinian territories" in the embassies/ambassadors/relations/recognitions lists; missing any Palestine/SoP reference from these lists; non-embassy/consulate mission types: delegation, mission, office, representation; National day: 1 January 1965 - Revolution day or other non-15.11.1988 day Alinor (talk) 09:00, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

In addition both kind of statements (1 and 2) may include reference to "in/within/with the 1967 borders". Alinor (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

The problem is where to arrange official statements of "recognizes a Palestine state" (contrasted with "recognizes the State of Palestine" that go in option1). Because of the subtle difference between the two we should rely on official statements only (not on journalistic/other interpretations of these statements) and I think the best WP:V approach is to confirm recognition by finding a "Embassy/Ambassador of the State of Palestine" (not "Embassy/Ambassador of Palestine (PLO)") listed somewhere on the official MFA/government website (or offline official documents) of the recognizer state. Alinor (talk) 12:47, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Coloring

One solution is to use coloring as shown in the later revisions here - regular recognizers, confirmed by official source, remain uncolored; recognizers without confirmation from official source are colored khaki; recognizers with vague official source that can't be assigned to either option1 or 2 (see 12:47, 2 February 2011 above) are colored gray. Alinor (talk) 08:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Conflicting or inconclusive sources

See also this archive. Alinor (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

• Syria is in the same situation as Lebanon (PLO mission instead of SoP embassy; refugee camps; and some think there are potential territorial claims), but it isn't backed by any undisputed source (unlike Lebanon - Syria is not in the UNESCO list) - thus it should either stay in "inconclusive" or move to "PLO relations, no SoP recognition". MFA website?

  Syria not accepting Palestinian passports [120]. Alinor (talk) 08:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

  unless source is found will be moved to "no information" (see below). Alinor (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

• Turkmenistan - no undisputed source at all, unless source is found will be moved to "no information" (see below). MFA website?

  Some links found that don't show SoP recognition - see below. Alinor (talk) 14:54, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

• Swaziland - included in unofficial list(s) of SoP recognizers that contradict the MFA pages of another states. No official confirmation. Swaziland MFA.
• Cameroon - included in unofficial list(s) of SoP recognizers that contradict the MFA pages of another states. No official confirmation. Cameroon MFA. SoP President congratulations found. Propose move to recognition, but more backing still needed. Alinor (talk) 22:10, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
• Vanuatu - included in unofficial list(s) of SoP recognizers that contradict the MFA pages of another states. No official confirmation. Vanuatu MFA.
• Lesotho - US government site states that it recognizes Palestine as a state. No official confirmation. Lesotho MFA.

No recognition of SoP cases that may seem doubtful

• Non-MFA source ([121], [122]) about "Embassy/Ambassador of Palestine" (interpreted as PLO/Palestine, the UN observer - but may be a reference to SoP)
  • Timor-Leste Timor-Leste MFA - no SoP/PLO/PNA recognition/relations found
  • Papua New Guinea MFA website?
  • Eritrea MFA website? see also below. Alinor (talk) 10:43, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, Eritrea does not recognise Palestine, that I know for sure. Nightw 07:43, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't question that, but I would like to add a source about it. Alinor (talk) 15:17, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

• Were present in older version of the article ([123]), without any source/note given (see previous discussion) - thus these maybe have only PLO/PNA relations - or recognize SoP - or nothing
  • Armenia Armenia MFA, full diplomatic directory - no SoP/PLO/PNA recognition/relations found
  • Myanmar Myanmar MFA - no SoP/PLO/PNA recognition/relations found
  • Singapore Singapore MFA - no SoP/PLO/PNA recognition/relations found. Was colored here as "Special delegation" or "General delegation"
  • Haiti Haiti MFA - bad link? Is colored here as "Special delegation" (I assume non-resident).
  • Jamaica Jamaica MFA - no SoP/PLO/PNA recognition/relations found. Is colored here as "Special delegation" (I assume non-resident). Alinor (talk) 10:43, 30 January 2011 (UTC)