Talk:Forced assimilation in Azerbaijan

Merge proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No consensus to merge. Arguments for relate to overlap, short text and context. Arguments against focus on Forced assimilation of Talysh people in Azerbaijan as an independently notable subtopic with readers best served by separate discussion. Objections with no support for the proposal and discussion stale for many months. Klbrain (talk) 16:32, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I propose merging Talysh assimilation into Forced assimilation in Azerbaijan. Forced assimilation of Talyshis in Azerbaijan SSR was a part of general forced assimilation in Azerbaijan SSR. With the currently existing sources it is better to write about the general forced assimilation. Smpad (talk) 22:21, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In principle I am against, since it seems to be a valid subtopic of this article. Unless there is so little content about Talysh assimilation that it would be better covered as part of this article—which does not seem to be the case. The one change I would suggest is possibly renaming this article to "Assimilation of ethnic minorities in Azerbaijan" or something like that — coercive and voluntary assimilation can be difficult to draw a sharp line between in practice. (t · c) buidhe 19:59, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Unless there is so little content about Talysh assimilation that it would be better covered as part of this article—which does not seem to be the case" - I argue that it is the case.

"The one change I would suggest is possibly renaming this article to "Assimilation of ethnic minorities in Azerbaijan" or something like that — coercive and voluntary assimilation can be difficult to draw a sharp line between in practice. " - in fact, Goff provides enough evidence that this did not come from the peoples, but assimilation practices were imposed on them by the state, and well describes their activism against them.

With respect, colleague. Smpad (talk) 20:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

İ am against to, because Talysh don not live just in republic of Azerbaijan another part live in Iran. Assimilation of Talysh is problem just for talysh people and do not merge with problem another peoples of Azerbaijan, because it is not same situation and history. By combining the articles, the importance of the assimilation of the Talysh will disappear and will be hidden under the unfair policies of the Azerbaijan Republic. The purpose of this article is to show the situation only around the Talysh people. Aharon Erman (talk) 20:43, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"because Talysh do not live just in republic of Azerbaijan another part live in Iran" - so do Kurds, Lezgins, Avars and others.

"assimilation of Talysh is problem just for talysh people" - forced assimilation of Talyshis was a part of general Forced assimilation in Azerbaijan SSR.

"By combining the articles, the importance of the assimilation of the Talysh will disappear and will be hidden under the unfair policies of the Azerbaijan Republic" - what is the argument?

With respect, Smpad (talk) 20:49, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The problem of the Talysh is different from all the problems of the peoples in Azerbaijan. Because the name of other peoples is not prohibited as the ethnonym Talysh in Azerbaijan. Representatives of other nations were not stolen from Moscow and were not killed in prisons. Other nations are not told that they are agents of Iran. Representatives of other nations are not killed in such numbers as the Talysh in Karbakh. If you open the list of losses, 75 percent of the dead are Talysh. You want to hide the Talysh problem among the problems of other peoples in Azerbaijan. Why was a separate article created for the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh? Why weren’t they combined into an article about peoples without their own autonomy? when it comes to Armenians, it’s a separate article, but when it comes to Talysh, then this is only a problem in Azerbaijan? Your goal of “helping” is not entirely clear to me. Aharon Erman (talk) 20:53, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Because the name of other peoples is not prohibited as the ethnonym Talysh in Azerbaijan. Representatives of other nations were not stolen from Moscow and were not killed in prisons" - how does this relate to forced assimilation in the Azerbaijan SSR described by Goff?

"Representatives of other nations were not stolen from Moscow and were not killed in prisons. Other nations are not told that they are agents of Iran" - some Lezgins and Avars are told that they are agents of Russia. Or Armenia. Talyshis border not with Russia, but with Iran, and therefore are accused of collaborating with the latter. How is this different from the situation with other nations?

"Representatives of other nations are not killed in such numbers as the Talysh in Karbakh" - Lezgins for example were also disproportionately recruited.

So, Talyshis were and are subject to the same techniques as the rest of the Muslim peoples of Azerbaijan.

"Why was a separate article created for the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh? Why weren’t they combined into an article about peoples without their own autonomy? when it comes to Armenians, it’s a separate article" - what article?

With respect, colleague. Smpad (talk) 21:03, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First open the list of losses and see the number of Talysh soldiers killed in Karbakh and see how many Lezgins were killed. Why did they create a separate article about Artsakh? Why wasn’t Artsakh included among the regions in Azerbaijan? Is your goal to remove the word Talysh and how do you differ from the dictatorial regime in Azerbaijan? They also renamed the Talysh Khanate into the Lankaran Khanate. Talysh region to the southern region. Why doesn’t Lezgin say that he is a northerner? while the Talysh is obliged to say that he is a southerner? same problems? How are you different from Azerbaijani politicians who are against the ethnonym Talysh? I am also having a discussion with you as with those. Your goal is not clear. Aharon Erman (talk) 21:15, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Colleague, Wikipedia is written based on reliable sources. Do you have reliable sources that write that the forced assimilation of the Talysh is the most special among other peoples in Azerbaijan? With respect, Smpad (talk) 21:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did all peoples have their own Autonomy in Azerbaijan except the Armenians? Have all autonomous regions had presidents deported to Holland? Did all nations losed someone like Novruzali, as well as his sons? Was someone like Fakhraddin Abbasov stolen from all nations? Are all nations banned from using their names as male names? Is everyone in Azerbaijan arrested for their national flag? Why did you decide that information about the Talysh should be the way you want to write it? Would you like it if the Talysh did this to the Armenians? You asked me why I didn’t enter into a dialogue with you? Has our dialogue brought any benefit? Are you still against the name “Talysh” and is there any point in having a discussion with you? Your words about sympathy for the Talysh and your actions towards the Talysh are completely different. That’s why I don’t want to discuss with you and you know my position. Let's wait for better end result. Aharon Erman (talk) 21:47, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dear colleague, do you have reliable sources that associate everything you just described with the term "forced assimilation"? With respect, Smpad (talk) 21:56, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I never spoke about forced assimilation, this is your opinion, but there are a lot of reliable sources about the assimilation of the Talysh. That's why I'm against merge. Remove all your added sources and add forced assimilation in Azerbaijan to the article. And return the sources you deleted. Aharon Erman (talk) 22:03, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you need reliable sources about the Talysh?

Here's a list for you. Reliable sources

First source Nationalities of the USSR: an ethnodemographic survey.

Second sourceHistory of the "Great Terror" in Azerbaijan

Third source Islamic and Ethnic Identities in Azerbaijan: Emerging Trends and Tensions.

Fourth sourceTalysh: Editor Arrested.

Fifth sourceAllegation of Minority Rights Violations in Azerbaijan.

Sixth sourceAZERBAIJANI AUTHORITIES ACCUSED OF DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ETHNIC MINORITIES.

Seventh sourceWhy Did Azerbaijani Authorities Arrest Talysh Activist?.

Eighth sourceEthnographie soviétique.

Ninth sourceCountries and peoples of the East.

Tenth sourceECRI REPORT ON AZERBAIJAN. Aharon Erman (talk) 22:06, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Who and what is stopping you from working on the article on assimilation in Azerbaijan? Why do you want to delete a separate article about the Talysh? After all, if such a problem existed in Azerbaijan and it means that each of the nations had a problem, and then it is appropriate to devote an article to each of the nations. After all, the Talysh language is part of the group of Iranian languages, but there is an article about it and the same thing with assimilation. What bothers you about the name “Talysh” in the title of the article? Aharon Erman (talk) 20:59, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aharon Erman, the first source (Kozlov) is too old a source and from the USSR period. The second source (Eldar Ismailov) is not RS. Neither does the fourth. The fifth source (Washington ProFile) is not RS. The eighth and ninth are not RS. Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:Reliable sources. With respect, Smpad (talk) 22:18, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to discuss anymore. I have cited reliable sources and let experienced users summarize. I will wait until the end of the outcome because consensus with you is impossible. You still want to remove the name "Talysh". Aharon Erman (talk) 22:24, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"After all, if such a problem existed in Azerbaijan and it means that each of the nations had a problem, and then it is appropriate to devote an article to each of the nations" - there are not so many sources for so much content yet. Unfortunately. Smpad (talk) 21:06, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are enough sources about the Talysh people, and for the first time when others tried to delete the article, relying on reliable sources, they saved the article and noted the importance of this topic. Aharon Erman (talk) 21:18, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

don't merge

don't merge because here we are talking only about Talysh! They tried to delete this article, but now they want to merge it. I will give several sources that speak only about the Talysh. An article on assimilation in Azerbaijan already exists and therefore I think the article on the Talysh should not be touched. If you need to expand the article called assimilation in Azerbaijan, then add sources there and that’s it. There is no need to touch this article.Aharon Erman (talk) 18:38, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Colleague, I am not "they". I'm a user who brought western reliable sources to this original-research article "Talysh assimilation" (before me there was a sea of complete nonsense, not related to the topic of forced assimilation of Talyshis). I am a user who brought information about the Talysh and the Talysh majority in the Lankaran city after long disputes with Azerbaijani users in Russian Wikipedia.

Colleague, the main subject is forced assimilation in Azerbaijan since the 1930s. Not only the Talysh were subjected to it, but also the Tats, Kurds, Lezgins and others in the same ways. If you remove the useless sources from the article about the assimilation of the Talysh, it will be shorter than the section about the Kurds in this article.

With respect, Smpad (talk) 19:04, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aharon Erman, also, “Talysh assimilation ” sounds ambiguous. As if this is something like Jewish assimilation. But this was a part of the general policy of forced assimilation in Soviet Azerbaijan. Smpad (talk) 20:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources

You can read specifically about Talysh assimilation here. Here we are talking only about the Talysh.

1, 2, 3 , 4 , 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 Aharon Erman (talk) 18:58, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is (and was) no “Talysh assimilation,” there was and is a forced assimilation of the Talysh and others. Wixman did not investigate it and simply repeated (his book is from 1984) the narrative of Azerbaijani officials (in reality Talyshis did not “assimilate” into Azeris in USSR, read the article, it's a fabrication of Azerbaijani officials). O'Keeffe writes not only about Talyshis. Goff writes about Kozlov. With respect, Smpad (talk) 19:12, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is assimilation in Azerbaijan, but the topic about the Talysh deserves a separate article. No one is stopping you from increasing the article about assimilation in Azerbaijan, but please do not delete the article about the Talysh. This is the problem of the Talysh and the article is only about them; no one is stopping you from writing about the problems of other peoples in Azerbaijan. You can enlarge the article about Azerbaijan and you can write about each people, I think there should be a separate article about the Talysh Aharon Erman (talk) 20:11, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would not recommend that you compare the assimilation of the Talysh with the assimilation of the Jews, because these are different peoples and different histories. But by combining the articles you will only hide the problem of the Talysh among the problems of other peoples, and before your editing the article was devoted to the Talysh and their assimilation. If you really want to help the Talysh and want to show the importance of their assimilation, then save a separate article about the Talysh. And write as much as you want about assimilation in Azerbaijan, I won’t interfere. My request is a separate article entitled “Talish assimilation”!!! If you really want to help, then you will hear me, and if not, then we will wait for the outcome. Aharon Erman (talk) 20:36, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aharon Erman, how does the problem of forced assimilation of Talysh differ from the problem of forced assimilation of Kurds? With respect, Smpad (talk) 20:39, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The assimilation of the Kurds differs from the assimilation of the Talysh in that the Kurds live in Turkey, Iraq, Syria, but the Talysh do not live there. The policy of these countries towards the Kurds is not the same as the policy of Azerbaijan towards the Talysh. The Kurds have their own autonomy in Iraq and the Kurdistan province in Iran. What do the Talysh have? Are the problems the same? The history of assimilation and the reason for the assimilation of peoples are always different. You are not a Kurd or a Talysh, but you want to write for them according to your views, and this is not entirely correct. Aharon Erman (talk) 21:05, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The policy of Azerbaijan SSR towards the Kurds and Talyshis was the same. It was the one policy. Some Talyshis were even also deported from Northern Talyshistan to Iran by Azeri officials.

"The Kurds have their own autonomy in Iraq and the Kurdistan province in Iran. What do the Talysh have?" - how does this relate to forced assimilation in the Azerbaijan SSR described by Goff?

"You are not a Kurd or a Talysh, but you want to write for them according to your views" - I want to write articles according to Wikipedia:Reliable sources.

With respect, Smpad (talk) 21:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You, as an Armenian, can have hatred for the politics of Azerbaijan and this is your right, but removing the problem of the Talysh and hiding them under the politics of Azerbaijan and constantly playing with the names of other indigenous peoples does not make you right. You yourself admitted that you sympathize with the Talysh, then what is the problem? write in the article about assimilation in Azerbaijan, but why remove the article about the Talysh? Aharon Erman (talk) 21:24, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article Forced assimilation in Azerbaijan has the same content as Talysh assimilation article. Why do we need a duplicate? With respect, Smpad (talk) 21:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First, you deleted other sources and then added excerpts from the book of Goff to the article, and now you copy and paste these excerpts into the article: forced assimilation in Azerbaijan and now say duplicate? Return all the sources you deleted and let's see where the duplicate is. Aharon Erman (talk) 22:12, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did not see these sources in the article on forced assimilation in Azerbaijan. Just don’t add these sources to the article, otherwise it won’t be fair.

Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations:.

The Former Soviet Union's Diverse Peoples: A Reference Sourcebook.

Report on the USSR..

Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations: S-Z.

The Soviet Multinational State: Readings and Documents.

Muslims of the Soviet Empire: A Guide.

Soviet Anthropology and Archeology, Volume 29.

The Peoples of the Soviet Union.

A Rand Note, Issue 3579.

The Caucasus: An Introduction.

Operation Soviet Union.

The Times Guide to the Peoples of Europe.

Great Soviet Encyclopedia, Volume 25.

The Thistle and the Drone: How America's War on Terror Became a Global War.

Encyclopaedic Ethnography of Middle-East and Central Asia, Volume 3.

FBIS Report: Central Eurasia, Issues 114-120.

Soviet Nationality Policies: Ruling Ethnic Groups in the USSR.

The Current Digest of the Soviet Press, Volume 40, Issues 1-26. Aharon Erman (talk) 22:16, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aharon Erman, not every source is a reliable source. With respect, Smpad (talk) 22:30, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Aharon Erman: Please don't create multiple sections for the same topic. Also, this whole talk page is currently WP:TLDR, and thus I'm afraid it will barely attract other users to come with their opinion. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:06, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.