Talk:Football at the 2020 Summer Olympics – Women's team squads

no alternates?

I've seen a media report saying alternate players are part of the teams now. Dutchy45 (talk) 10:02, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I've seen a few, for example here. But it hasn't been formally announced yet. I'd wait until it's formally annonuced before we update about it. And then we'll have some work with all the nations having to submit an update. --SuperJew (talk) 10:13, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

It's also mentioned on the Swedish football federation's homepage here. -- Lejman (talk) 18:01, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Brazil's coach Pia Sundhage officially called the four alternates. See here.--SirEdimon ^Dimmi!!! 23:18, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

@Sportsfan 1234: Do you have a source for your claim Alternates are still considered that, they do not reside at the "village"? --SuperJew (talk) 07:58, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

[1] This says it won't increase the amount of people on site (which implies village).. I think a note at the top of the page indicating alternates can be used + having the four alternates listed separately is the best way to proceed. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 20:42, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

@Sportsfan 1234: Why does the sleeping arrangement matter? We want to reflect the sporting arrangement. From a sports view it was an 18-player squad with 4 players as alternates who can be substitued once permanently for a player from the 18-player squad who is injured and was changed to a 22-player squad from which 18 are selected for each match day squad. --SuperJew (talk) 22:00, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

The IOC in its release indicates the alternates are not included in the number, however, from their rules, alternates can compete. I think it should be noted one way or another who is an alternate so its clear who is who. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 22:21, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

But there is no difference now. What's there to note? Some squads by the way haven't even named alternates in their announcement, but just named a 22-player squad (for example: Zambia and Spain M) --SuperJew (talk) 22:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Another example: However, after pressures made by several national associations, FIFA announced last Friday that the 4 extra players would now be allowed to be part of the full squad, expanding the roster to 22 players. --SuperJew (talk) 23:01, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

There could be a hybrid model too, where teams have clearly indicated alternates. At the end of the day, an explanation in the lead is more than sufficient, so what is listed per team shouldn't matter. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 23:54, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

To me "will not include the number of athletes on site" in the IOC release clearly implies that the alternates were already staying with the rest of the teams. I think it is definitely implied that all teams will have 22 player squads now, but agree with Sportsfan that we have not seen official confirmation of this from several teams (including Australia and New Zealand). Hopefully becomes clearer once the tournament begins. Macosal (talk) 02:26, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Have any teams released their squad after the update announced 4 players as alternates? --SuperJew (talk) 04:14, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Take your point (not that I know of). But consider this - Jay Rich-Baghuelo replaced Ruon Tongyik in the Australian men's squad yesterday and has been added to the Australian Olympic Committee website. Marco Tilio replaced Ramy Najjarine (an alternate) at the same time, and is not listed on the site. Likewise, none of the other alternates in the Aussie men's / women's teams have been added. Just need to be careful we don't get ahead of WP:RS here. Macosal (talk) 04:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

In the latest Matildas release about the defenders on the Olympic roster, Brock, Nevin, & Grant are mentioned with no difference of status. --SuperJew (talk) 08:01, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

I think we need to revisit this. The Canadian Olympic Committee did not announce the alternates with the list of athletes to the team. I think we need to note who the alternates are so there is a clear distinction (which would be how it was a couple weeks ago). Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 20:17, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

@Sportsfan 1234: Can you attach a source to back your comment? I can't find any squad announcements for Canada's squad apart from the original announcements from 23 June. Regardless, FIFA's official squad listing lists for all 12 teams 22 players, with no distinction between "regular" and "alternates". --SuperJew (talk) 21:28, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

[2] This is the official team Canada roster released by the COC, only 18 names are listed. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 21:51, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Canada are listed with 22 athletes by FIFA with no distinction for "alternates". Some delegations do not show this distinction either, so it doesn't needed to have this division on the Canada list only. Jonas kam (talk) 04:56, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure where this Google doc Sportsfan 1234 linked to is from or who wrote it, so I hardly believe it is a verified and reliable source. On the other hand, FIFA's official squad listing and on FIFA's website at the link Jonas kam has brought shows all the squads with 22 players. Here also is a release by the Australian Olympic Committee officially adding Australia's alternate to their Olympic team. I do not see any case to keep the former alternates distinct from the rest of the squad apart from the note already in the lede. --SuperJew (talk) 05:49, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

The google doc is linked by the COC in their press release announcing the team [3]. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 12:37, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

@Sportsfan 1234: Firstly, please stop your disrupting editing of reverting until consensus is reached on the talk page. Please read WP:BRD. Secondly, here is another source in which the coach Bev discusses rule change meaning that the four origanlly named as alternates are part of the roster. Thirdly, as said previously - the FIFA releases, and other Olympic Committees aren't making any distinction. The fact that COC's press release does seem to make might be an oversight or a mistake, but it is only one source and shouldn't be regarded with more influence than others. Therefore we should keep all all the squads, including Canada, as 22 players with no distinction between former alternates and other squad members. --SuperJew (talk) 12:47, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are reading, but the excel spreadsheet linked above is published by the COC. The alternates are not included in that spreadsheet, and therefore not included in the official total of 371 athletes being sent to the games. Listing the team as 22 athletes is factually incorrect. The official website only has 18 names listed as well [4] Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 12:50, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

I see that the COC specifically haven't included former alternate players in their listing. BUT, as linked and explained above FIFA has listed all 22 athletes in their official squads lists. So what we have here is a disrepency between sources which we need to understand how best to display. If we are talking about individual countries Olympic Committees, as stated and linked above, Australia has officially added the former alternates to their Olympic squad. The Olympics official website you brought above has more merit than the individual COC, so this question is should we list according to the Olympics website (which has the note also Athlete and entry information is subject to change. It is for information only, and should not be relied upon as a true representation of final entries. Amendment as a result of official Tokyo2020 processes, including late athlete replacement, will be displayed as soon as practicable) or according to the FIFA website, which we are currently showing combined with support from other sources, including those speaking about the rule change. Personally I think showing the 22 athletes with the FIFA listing and supporting sources is the correct way, but mine and neither your opinions are the only ones and therefore we are discussing on the page's talk page and should wait for more people to voice their thoughts. --SuperJew (talk) 13:07, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps for other countries. However, for Canada the alternates are not officially on the team and therefore a distinction needs to be made. A hybrid solution, depending on the country, probably works best. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 13:32, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

I disagree - it should be consistent between countries on the page. --SuperJew (talk) 13:46, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

What you are proposing is factually incorrect and contradicted by the Canadian Olympic Committee and the official website of the Tokyo Olympics. I don't see how you could continue to support your stance here. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 15:39, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

On another section of the website [5] the alternates are listed and marked as such. Thus labelling the four alternates on the rosters here should be the way to go. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 15:50, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Whether or not Canada considers the alternates as part of the team does not change the fact that on an organisational level, the players designated as "alternates" have equal eligibility to compete in the tournament. I think mentioning in the lead that alternate athletes were allocated numbers 19 to 22 should suffice. S.A. Julio (talk) 15:54, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes it does matter, because each of these sections are transcluded onto the X at the Olympic pages. If the sentence says 22, and the article says 18, there is a clear contradiction there. These are run by the IOC and in their release from early July it says it won't increase team sizes [6]. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 15:59, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

@S.A. Julio: Do you means something like: "The final squad of 22 athletes was announced on June 23, 2021, alternates have been allocated numbers 19 to 22" something like that? Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 16:02, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Not sure where you're reading it won't increase team sizes - the release says This will not increase the number of athletes on site in Japan. The logical option is that the alternates anyway would've been on site - which makes sense - you won't fly a player from Europe to Japan a couple of days before a game. --SuperJew (talk) 16:33, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

This will not increase the number of athletes on site in Japan, literally means it won't increase the team sizes. What user S.A. Julio has suggested is a good compromise for each team. Plus these are being transculded onto each of the country pages, so listing just 22 without any explanation would be a problem as each delegation's table will list 18 athletes. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 21:46, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

This page should be written as a stand-alone page. If a country's page is transcluding part of it, then any extra explanations not included in transclusion should be added there and not repeated 12 times on this page. --SuperJew (talk) 06:12, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Club teams

SuperJew brought up an issue in his edit summary: I'm not sure it's wise to say in the lede that "[th]e club listed is the club for which the player last played a competitive match prior to the tournament." First of all, why would we intentionally list incorrect info at the start of the tournament, given that contracts have ended/started by then? If we keep that lede, then there has to be some qualification on it too, as some national associations explicitly list those "unattached" players. What if the last club competitive match was like a year ago (not usual but not uncommon either in the women's game)? Seany91 (talk) 07:57, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Yeah i saw SuperJew chaning it to the pdf file (which is not wrong). I was going by the lede but i am not sure this is the way to go. I would list the club the player is attached by the start of the tournament as shown by the FIFA file. Kante4 (talk) 08:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Many, many players have moved to new clubs (or returned to parent clubs) with contracts starting on (or ending before) 1 July 2021, well before the start of the tournament. Their national associations have generally listed them accordingly. And SuperJew's reverts didn't catch them all — Kumagai to Bayern, for example ;) Seany91 (talk) 08:24, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Formiga is listed with Paris at the FIFA file, although she moved to São Paulo... We need to find a way to be consistent. Kante4 (talk) 14:35, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

I was also thinking to go by the FIFA file, but there seems to be many obvious errors in the clubs there - for example Tameka Yallop is listed as playing for Klepp IL, when she left there in 2018, has played for 2 other clubs since then (Melbourne City & Brisbane Roar) and has signed for West Ham United even though she hasn't played a game there yet. Regarding the lede The club listed is the club for which the player last played a competitive match prior to the tournament. - this is the consensus on lists of squads articles on Wikipedia - I personally have no objection to it being like that or to be where they are contracted to, but it should be consistent on these kinds of articles and should therefore be discussed at a wider venue on WT:FOOTY imo. --SuperJew (talk) 19:20, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Yeah this is something that would need to be discussed at the WT:FOOTY more generally - the approach currently used here is quite widespread. I can see the utility in it - e.g., where a player is on loan, or transferring at around the time of a tournament, it's much easier to be able to look at an objective standard, being where they most recently played, than having to figure out by dissecting the timing of contract expiries and transfer dates etc.. Macosal (talk) 06:42, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't feel like bringing this up myself at WT:FOOTY; dealing with that very vocal minority of broso-only editors is just not what I want to spend my time on voluntarily. So I guess I'll personally leave things here as is, and if some other editor wants to start this discussion over there feel free. Seany91 (talk) 19:26, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

I think club listed should be the one the player is contracted to when the tournament starts, not the one they played a competitive match for.--Ortizesp (talk) 20:02, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

I personally agree, hence me bringing it up here in the first place. But there's consensus that this should be consistent across all such pages and thus should be discussed at WT:FOOTY. Seany91 (talk) 06:58, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

US squad is incorrect

I found out there are several errors in the US squad:Casey Krueger and Lynn Williams (soccer) were not part of the squad but Ali Krieger was. And I'm not 100% sure but I think Jane Campbell (soccer) also wasn't part of the squad. I don't know their replacements. --Dutchy45 (talk) 15:03, 8 August 2021 (UTC) Kristie Mewis also wasn't part of the team! Maybe some US-editor/fan can take a look and fix this mess? --Dutchy45 (talk) 15:23, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Dutchy45: Not sure what your are basing these claims off of. Casey Krueger (nee Short) was part of the squad - she was substituted on in the group match against New Zealand. Lynn Williams was part of the squad - was substituted on in the group match against Australia. Jane Campbell was part of the squad - was named on the bench in the bronze medal match. Where do you see Ali Krieger on the squad? Please list an appropriate reference. I am currently reverting your changes per the sources we have on the page and per the match listings I linked here. If you have further objections, please continue the discussion here, supported by reliable sources, and don't edit the page until we reach a consensus to change. --SuperJew (talk) 15:27, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Kristie Mewis played in the group stage in both the game against Sweden and the game against Australia. --SuperJew (talk) 15:30, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@SuperJew: I based in on the articles about the players on WP. I assumed they would be better informed about the individual players. for Krueger see here. The fourth paragraph of the section has no less than 3 refs! for Williams see here, the 3rd paragraph, again with a ref. Now I know even less and I'm very surprised. Something has been going very wrong here I think! --Dutchy45 (talk) 15:43, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

The Mewis article also stated she wasn't part. Dutchy45 (talk) 15:46, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Alie Krieger supposedly came on in the final according tothe ref in her article! Dutchy45 (talk) 15:50, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Firstly, per WP:CIRCULAR, Do not use articles from Wikipedia (whether this English Wikipedia or Wikipedias in other languages) as sources.

Secondly - the articles about Krueger and Williams say they were part of the squad, as is listed on the page, and as is supported by the match listings I linked above. Mewis's article doesn't say she was part of the squad and doesn't say she wasn't, but this is just information that wasn't added to her page. On Krieger's page I don't see anything about her coming on for the final on her article and no ref either. Could you please link the ref you saw? --SuperJew (talk) 16:29, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@SuperJew: OMG! Major faux pas on my part. I somehow (and very stupidly!) mixed up the olympic squad and the World Cup squad. Good thing at least somebody was paying attention! Dutchy45 (talk) 08:09, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah okay. Glad we understood the issue ;) --SuperJew (talk) 08:39, 10 August 2021 (UTC)