Talk:Flying Scotsman (railway service)

Reason for speed restrictions

The speed restriction imposed on the modern-day "Scotsman" at York station is nothing to do with the implications of passing under the overall roof, but due to the fact that the station is sited on a sharp curve precluding high-speed running. See "Rail Super Centres: York" by Ken Appleby (publ. Ian Allan, 1993) for photographs of track layout and speed restriction signs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.248.1 (talk) 23:19, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

I've amended the wording as mention of the roof was at best misleading. Any possibility of some page numbers for the Appleby info, so that we can use it as a reference for the sentence? thanks --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:05, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Main image - what engine is the older one in the upper left-hand corner of the poster?

Ok, surely someone out there in WIki-land can find a reliable source that categorically states which two engines are pictured in the main illustration for this article (the poster from the centenary, which was also used as the front-cover for "The Flying Scotsman 1862 1962 Portrait of a Train", a booklet by Ellis C Hamilton). The older engine, pictured in sepia-tones in the upper left-hand corner is apparently either

• 1)an engine designed by Archibald Sturrock

or

• 2)an engine designed by Patrick Stirling. I do not know who designed it but am thinking it cannot be both... Shearonink (talk) 23:43, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

It's certainly a 4-2-2, which narrows the field significantly - Sturrock and Stirling each produced a single design of 4-2-2. The framing, splashers and smokebox are all wrong for the well-known GNR Stirling 4-2-2 and have a decidedly Great Western appearance (Sturrock was an ex-GWR man) - this is Sturrock's no. 215, built 1853 but shown here as modified with a bogie instead of rigidly-mounted axles. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

@Redrose64: Your Sturrock's no. 215 link is kaput. Here, presumably ... but no image, just a table :( --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:36, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Experts among us - yay! The issue is I think we need a published(internet/book/magazine/newspaper article/museum publication/etc) reliable source that states what the particular engine is and who designed it... I really did try to find a reference that states which two engines are actually pictured on the poster, but was unsuccessful. I even had a hard time finding out any information on the poster's artist. Most of the sourcing I could find only said it was "Bagley". I am pretty sure that this was Laurence Bagley but finding sourcing for the complete name ([1]) has been more difficult than I thought it would be. I am even thinking of buying a copy of the Centenary booklet that has the poster as its front-cover in the hopes Hamilton would have more information. I have also been unable to find references that state what engine pulled the inaugural Flying Scotsman train. Shearonink (talk) 17:31, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

I fixed the link. I don't think there was an "inaugural Flying Scotsman train", because it wasn't a service with a definite start. As Cecil J. Allen notes in

• Allen, Cecil J. (1947) [1946]. Titled Trains of Great Britain (2nd ed.). London: Ian Allan. p. 11.

'Precisely when the name "Flying Scotsman" came into use is difficult to say ... it was not until after the formation of [the LNER] ... that the title was officially adopted'. The service did not begin at some definite time, but evolved gradually from a Great Northern Railway service unofficially known as the Special Scotch Express which was certainly running as early as 1862. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:21, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Has anyone been able to find a reliable source that categorically states what particular engine that is? The bottom/green one seems to be well-sourced as a Deltic diesel but the old/original engine... Shearonink (talk) 16:43, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

You could check the photos and drawings in

• Groves, Norman (1986). Great Northern Locomotive History: Volume 1 1847-66. RCTS. ISBN 0-901115-61-4.

but is that WP:OR? --Redrose64 (talk) 17:43, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

*sigh* Probably. It just seems to me that someone must have stated (in print perhaps since the poster dates from 1962?) what engine that is. I mean, I know experts can look at the image and say "oh that's a [whatever] engine" but it just bothers me that the poster is the signature image for this article and we don't quite know what is on it. Heh, maybe some writer for some publication needs to write up the poster and then we can use that as a reliable source... Cheers, 18:08, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Groves does state (p. 68) "it would seem that when the Special Scotch Express with East Coast Joint Stock was introduced in June 1862. a suitable job for No. 215 had been found in working this train southwards, although there is no evidence to support that it regularly did so". --Redrose64 (talk) 17:27, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Scotsman or Scotchman?

"It was the LNER which, in 1924, officially renamed the 10:00 Special Scotch Express linking Edinburgh and London in both directions as the Flying Scotsman, its unofficial name since the 1870s"

The above is clearly not the whole or exact story of the unofficial name, see:

1872 Times 25 Jan. 7/2 The Scotch express (popularly known as the ‘flying Scotchman’)

1913 D. H. Lawrence Sons & Lovers vii. 165 You should see the Flying Scotchman come through.

Source OED.

79.74.232.109 (talk) 19:59, 24 March 2017 (UTC)