Talk:Flat white

Original Research

I've just removed occurances of flat white in Australian newspaper archives which states that they are the earliest known records. I've removed it under WP:OR. It is not Wikipedia's job to research earliest known occurances of the phrase, we need reliable secondary sources that say that it is the earliest known occurance. We also do not know that it refers to the flat white drink in question, WP:NOTDIC. Panamitsu (talk) 04:34, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Policy states: "A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH

It is a statment of fact that these cafés served flat white coffees at these times. These statements are supported by reliable sources. Therefore they are not OR. It would be a question of interpretation to state that these are the earliest instances of flat white coffees or that they are the same as today's flat white coffees. But no such statements are made in the article. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 04:43, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I disagree because the article says

The earliest documented references to the beverage date back to Australia in the mid-1980s. A review of the Sydney café Miller's Treat in May 1983 refers to their "flat white coffee"

It's original research because the article mentions that it is the earliest known record of the flat white, however the source only passes the name. I agree that the other mentions should be kept, however we can't say that it is the "earliest known record" because we don't know that. Panamitsu (talk) 05:23, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the statement "the earliest documented records" needs to be changed. Also have a look at the talk section above which mentions two earlier documented references to "flat white coffee" from England in the 1960s. The term "flat white" has been around since at least the 1960s and originally meant an espresso based coffee with milk which wasn't frothed like a cappuccino. My guess is that the modern flat white evolved over time and that there is no agreement on what constitutes a modern flat white. Even if you look at this article you see that various sources disagree on what a "true" flat white is. I think the History and Origins section of this article should states that the term "flat white coffee" has been around for many decades but there is disagreement over the development of the modern drink.

I think that we should just state that the term "flat white coffee" has been used since at least the 1960s, with a citation to the Peter Shaffer play Public Ear (1962). Then a statement that the term was used in Sydney cafés in the 1980s (using the current sources). These would be factual statements with no claim that the flat whites served were the same as the modern drink. Then the various claims of invention of the modern drink starting with Alan Preston. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 05:53, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I have made the the above changes. Let me know what you think. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 05:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I have removed the Original Research tag as the section now has citations to reliable sources. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 03:39, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

@Panamitsu I have restored the properly sourced material you removed. Please do not remove reliably sourced information without prior discussion and consensus, particularly when we had discussed the matter last year and apparently had reached agreement on new wording. To reiterate: policy states, " On Wikipedia, original research means material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources." The current statements are purely factual, are reliably sources and do not reach a conclusionwhich is not stated in the source. Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 22:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

This diff. The 1960s source is primary, so we do not know if "flat white" is referring to the one we know today. We would need a secondary source describing the origins of flat whites to figure this out. In WP:PRIMARY there is the sentence Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.

For your removal of the tag here, this gives the gives the false impression that the origin of the drink is known, when there is no consensus on its origins. We would either have to have the tag for both countries or remove them all together. —Panamitsu (talk) 00:28, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

1) The 1960s source is a reliable source. There is no synthesis involved. Your statement that the source is "primary, so we don't know if "flat white"is referring to the one today" is a non sequitur. Policy on primary sources and the question of whether the flat white refered to in the source is the same thing as a modern flat white are two separate issues.

2) The reliably sourced statement appears in the Origins and history. The section is about the origins and history of the espresso based coffee topped with milk which is known as a flat white. The source refers to a drink called a "flat white" served in an expresso bar. It is therefore relevant to the origins and history of the espresso based coffee drink known as the flat white.

3) The question of whether the espresso based drink called a "flat white" referred to in the play might not be the same as your definition of a flat white is irrelevant. The article makes clear that there is no consensus on what constitutes a "modern flat white" except that it contains at least one shot of coffee and is topped with milk which is less frothed than in a cappucino.

4) Your main concern seems to be that the origin of the drink is unknown. Indeed, one of the articles in the source quotes a coffee expert as stating that the Australian and New Zealand claims are both dubious and the drink probably took off in England in the 1950s. Would you be happy if I dropped the Schaeffer source and replaced it with that one? Would you be happy if I rewrote the article to make it clear that the claims of invention by Preston and Townsend are dubious? Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:22, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes that would be good. Thanks for your analysis. —Panamitsu (talk) 05:19, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Ristretto

Citation 14 [1] reads like original research and the quote "The milk should be velvety rather than fluffy and therefore stronger, which requires a shorter, ristretto espresso shot to avoid harsh flavours." closely resembles paraphrase plagiarism from the original article. This article provides no scientific explanation as to why a ristretto may "avoid harsh flavors," therefore coming across as preferential/cultural rather than factual. I might suggest linking to the ristretto page and re-phrasing or omitting the plagiarized section. Peaseblossomxiv (talk) 17:59, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. I have removed it. I have also removed some unsourced editorial opinion. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 11:50, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Description

Hello all

I have removed a lot of information which was unsourced editorial opinion. I have also replaced some personal opinions from bloggers with a recipe for a flat white which appears in a reliable source. I have moved some of the material that was in the "Similar Beverages" section to the "Description" section because the material was mostly a description of a flat white. The fact is that flat whites can be served in take-away cups, ceramic cups or glass cups of various sizes. They can have one, two or three shots of espresso. Each shot of espresso can be about 30 ml or a ristretto. Flat whites usually have a higher proportion of coffee to milk and a thinner layer of microfoam than lattes or cappuccinos but sometimes they don't. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 11:38, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Did an edit to resolve some of the internal inconsistencies, especially where the text didn't actually agree with the sources being referenced (eg NZ tourism quote and the accompanying text stated different volumes for the cup!). Modified the "Similar Beverages" to be about those beverages. B adger1 (talk) 21:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I have made some changes to your edits. I have removed some unsourced editorial comments and have used more concise wording. A bigger problem I have is that you have repeated statements (in paraphrase) that are already in the quoted passage from tourism New Zealand or are stated elsewhere in the article. I think the article is already too repetitive. Most of the description section is framed in terms of the difference between a flat white and a cappuccino and latte. Then we have another section which also discusses the difference between these drinks. We only need to say things once. I think we should delete the long quote from Tourism NZ and state the key points once. We should also note contradictions:Eg: Moldvaer states that a flat white consists of a double espresso but Tourism NZ states that it should have one 30mm shot. (We all know that a flat white can be one, two or even three shots and can be in a 6, 8, 10 or 12 oz cup or container, but for wikipedia we can only use reliable sources that state this.) Happy to discuss Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 04:36, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

In popular culture

Hello all

An editor has repeatedly tried to add content about a "Google Doodle" of a flat white. 2 editors have objected to this on the grounds that it is trivia which doesn't improve the article. I am also opposed to adding an "In popular culture" section as this will only encourage other editors to add expamples of any mention of the beverage in TV shows, movies, games, comic books etc. I think the emphasis should be on improving the content about the actual beverage, not encouraging tangential trivia. Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 03:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)