This is an archive of past discussions about Flag of the United States. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
The appellation "Stars and Stripes", though long-established,is incorrect heraldry. The flag's field is "barry", i.e. consists of bars, not stripes. And the charge is not of stars,(estoilles, which have wavy sides), but of mullets. A mullet is NOT a star, but an unpierced spur rowel, worn with armour when horse-riding. It has straight sides. 122.59.10.108 (talk) 03:30, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
It's a flag, not a coat of arms. Terms like "stripe" and "star" are normal in vexillology, but indeed not in heraldic blazons. SiBr4 (talk) 16:05, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
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This section is strange. The US flag was near identical to the East India Company flag. Chinese and Japanese would have been "very" familiar with the East India Company flag for over 100 years. Why they would have been attracted to this flag I find odd, and doubt the authenticity.
94.5.29.93 (talk) 10:37, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
The East India Company flag didn't have stars, which, as I understand the mention, stars are what they were referring to as flowers perhaps in combination with the stripes. Apparently, they didn't think the Union Jack on the East India Company flag was beautiful. - BilCat (talk) 21:08, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Recommended Deletion
In Flag of the United States, section 4.8 Display at half-staff, July 27 National Korean War Armistice Day is listed as one of six half-staff dates by Federal statute. However, at the very end of this section it is stated that it has been a date of full-staff observance since 2009. Therefore I recommend deleting the initial listing of July 27 as a half-staff date to avoid confusion. FlagAdvocate (talk) 16:09, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
Hemp
The paragraph about the First Flag / Grand Union Flag ends with the notice that the first american flags were made out of hemp.
But isn't that always called *linen* if you talk about cloth made from hemp fibres? And linen, besides wool and silk should be one of the most common cloths to make clothing out of in those days, not sure how common cotton would have been in 1770 and synthetics were definitely still a thing of the distant future by then...). I think the note should be changed to remove the confusing "hemp" that sounds as if somebody wanted to allege to marihuana, which would not be true at all, linen does not make you high. 178.203.29.150 (talk) 17:23, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Design
Under the Creation heading the article states that Robert G. Heft is credited with the design of the current 50-star flag. However if you follow the Robert G. Heft link, the associated article states that:
1. It is a myth that he designed the flag.
2. There is no evidence that his design was considered by the official flag committee.
3. Many people put forth exactly the same design.
4. Although his design is the same as the one which was chosen, that is nothing more than coincidence.
Obviously something needs to change because we now have two articles which directly contradict one another. I have started a New Section on the Talk Page of the Robert G. Heft (talk) article and that is where you should go if you wish to be involved in trying to gain a consensus around this issue. FillsHerTease (talk) 01:36, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
OR tag on Similar flags section
Flag_of_the_United_States#Similar_flags has been tagged as WP:OR by User:Moxy, and I agree. The inclusion criterion is completely subjective, and it seems quite far-fetched to claim that many (or even most) of the currently-included flags are similar to the US flag. I suggest removing this section completely, and possibly replacing it with a section on flags for which WP:RS exist showing that the flags were based on the American flag (some of the current flags have legitimate, albeit mostly unsourced, claims of this). Meters (talk) 20:24, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
Please change the section "particular days on which the flag should be displayed" to match the source (note 96) -- in particular, add Easter and Christmas; or add another source that does not include these days.
69.118.172.215 (talk) 22:07, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Done That was a mess. I added Mothers Day, Fathers Day, Christmas, and Easter. Also removed the random trivia about Robert E. Lee and Washington's actual birthday. EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 21:01, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
The section of this article that says "The first American flags were made out of hemp.[9]" needs to be changed. The citation reference is to a news article from 2014 that states the same thing, but provides no teference to where said information came from nor any way to back up staid information. Either more citations are needed to state this as a factual statement, or the sentence should be changed to include all possible materials the first flags may have been from as well as it stating "It is possible...." so the sentence isn't being presented as a reliable, provable fact.
2601:680:C400:8349:9865:B0DD:CCF4:58D1 (talk) 19:17, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
Lo Ximiendo -- The "Civil Flag" theory is based on a misunderstanding of a description of a U.S. customs / coast-guard flag by 19th-century writer Nathaniel Hawthorne. We have an SVG of the supposed "Civil Flag" on Wikimedia Commons, but it wouldn't be appropriate to add it to this article... AnonMoos (talk) 04:07, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
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Please edit the Particular days for display Paragraph
September: First Monday (Labor Day), 17 (Constitution Day), and last Sunday (Gold Star Mother's Day)[98]
Add 9/11(NYC terror attacks) Mang1009 (talk) 00:14, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
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Hello everyone. The current image of the subdued flag is mirrored/reversed from the way it is worn. The flag is worn with stars on the right side. This is to demonstrate how a flag would be waving as a soldier moves forward, and is symbolic of the idea that "These colors don't run." If it were worn as the page currently shows it, it would look like a soldier is moving backwards, or retreating.
Have you possibly misunderstood the caption? It reads "A subdued-color flag patch, similar to style worn on the United States Army's ACU uniform. The patch is normally worn reversed on the right upper sleeve. See explanation in "Display on uniforms" section below."
It explains exactly what you say above - that the flag is reversed when worn on the right. If the flag were worn on the left, it would be fine advancing into battle. The linked section also clarifies that the flag is not always worn on the right, so the image and caption are correct. Chaheel Riens (talk) 15:16, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
Section on flag burning?
Has there ever been a section in this article about flag burning (in protest, not the "dignified" kind)? IMHO it deserves much more than the single sentence: "Desecration of the flag is considered a public outrage, but remains protected as freedom of speech." This sentence seems a bit POV anyway- I think "flag burning" is preferable to the word "desecration", and whether it is a "public outrage" is certainly something that people disagree with. Regardless of anybody's opinion of the practice, flag-burning is an important part of the culture and mystique of the flag in the US. If nothing else, the many supreme court cases and proposed constitutional amendments should be referenced.
I think at least a paragraph could do it justice, with a photo. We have over a dozen photos of the flag presented in its usual "respectful" way, so I don't think one photo of "desecration" constitutes undue weight. (Sorry if this is a perennial proposal- it seems like an obvious idea to me) Staecker (talk) 23:35, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
Hi, sorry for lateness in replying - I've only just noticed this. It's an interesting proposal - and I happen to agree with you. However, I don't advocate change, because it seems that nobody else agrees with me/us. I was all up for changing "desecration" to "flag burning", but having looked deeper it seems that Flag desecration is the accepted term, and Flag burning is a redirect to Flag desecration anyway. A quick Google search also brings back multiple results to show that it generates "public outrage":
[4] Burning the Flag: The Great 1989-1990 American Flag Desecration Controversy by Robert Justin Goldstein (courtesy of Google books)
I'd support an image of flag burning desecration being inserted, and slight expanding of the text. I might get round to it in the next day or so - but feel free to pre-empt me if you want, of course. Chaheel Riens (talk) 11:27, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
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I propose adding this small addition to the bottom of the Colors section. I have an Excel spreadsheet with all of the calculations. I envision providing a link for readers to download this spreadsheet if they want to see the calculations. If it's more appropriate to provide a PDF document or other format, I am willing to do that. Here is my addition:
The ratio of the colors is as follows:
Red = 41.5385%
White = 39.7255%
Blue = 18.7361%
These calculations were done using the specifications referenced above along with the appropriate trigonometric formulas. The attached spreadsheet shows the calculations. BaronRunsFast (talk) 00:33, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
I have noticed that the colors of the American Flag look off. After looking at the American Flag page on usa.gov[1] and a website on repoducing colors from real life on computers[2], I have come to the conclusion that the colors on the Wikipedia page are incorrect. I feel that the American Flag ,as important and iconic as it is, should be as close to perfect as possible. Especially since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia.
According to the professionals in color reproduction and printing[3] the colors should be as follows.
Alex_Microbe -- as has been discussed a number of times in the past, flag colors are specified in a device-independent description system, while computer RGB colors are inherently device-dependent, so there can be no RGB specification of flag colors which is "correct" for all purposes... AnonMoos (talk) 09:48, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Hi, Flag of the British East India Company on this article is mentioned as from 1707–1801 whereas under the article Flag of the East India Company the same flag is mentioned as the flag between 1668 and 1801. Why this huge variation in age of usage? Thanks. --Pearll's SunTALK14:28, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
1707 was when the Flag of England was replaced by the Flag of Great Britain for most purposes at sea... The 1668-1801 dating comes from the opinion that the St. George Cross was maintained in the canton for the whole period, while the 1707–1801 dating comes from the opinion that the canton was changed to the union flag (i.e. St. George + St. Andrew combination) in 1707... AnonMoos (talk) 16:28, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Flag
The flag display is the war flag of the USA shouldn't you be showing the civil Flag of a nation? Just a thought 8CH8 (talk) 06:40, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
"Marian", in this context, seems to refer to Roman Catholic veneration of Mary, mother of Jesus. I am unaware of any indication Roman Catholic symbolism was used in any flag discussed here.
You are suggesting this to clarify that it is not the Star of David. The Star of David is typically depicted as two overlapping triangles, not a filled in star, and would have been anachronistic in the 18th century in any case.
Nothing in the text suggests any religious symbolism of any kind. I'm not seeing anything to improve here. - SummerPhDv2.013:22, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Elements about flag origin as mix between Grand Union Flag and personal Washington flag "blue with 13 six-pointed stylized stars"
I report something interesting from description of a 1782 portrait from James Peale (Charles Peale brother):
"Note the blue flag with pointed stars that became George Washington’s personal flag in 1775"
"As Commander-in-Chief, George Washington followed typical European tradition by having a flag designed for himself as leader of the army. In those days, monarchs, generals and other leading officials often had their own personal standards. The flag would have been located anywhere General Washington was present, whether on the battlefield, at headquarters or on the march. It is sometimes referred to as the Washington's Headquarters Flag"
"The original Washington's Commander-in-Chief Flag (http://www.revolutionary-war-and-beyond.com/images/original-washingtons-commander-in-chief-flag.jpg) is in the possession of the American Revolution Center in Philadelphia. It was donated to the Center's predecessor, the Valley Forge Historical Society, in the early 20th century, by Francis B. Lovell, a descendant of George Washington's sister, Betty Washington Lewis.
NOTE: The above linked logo is inspired to the original George Washington flag showed in the Museum, which has 13 six-pointed stylized stars very similar to the Unicode Character 'SIX POINTED BLACK STAR' (U+2736) ✶ (every stars is some degrees turned - not 90° painted); a lot of this original flag reproduction use the "marian/northern/german" stylized stars but not turned, instead the original "strange" stars.
So, as Washington was member of the Anglican Church, is not hard to recognize the Anglican rose (related and so similar to the marian star) design in the stylized six-pointed stars he chose for his personal flag, that in number of 13 are aligned resemblant both a starry sky (new constellation..) and to the link with the 3 cross of the "mother" uk flag. Is not to forget that as he was also Freemasons, he knew to look at all the things even in the symbolism way: is improbable that all this were random facts.
Grand Union Flag (until 1776)
Hopkinson Flag 6-pointed stars
Flag of the United States (1777–1795) 5-pointed stars
...looking how was the "usa" flag before and what was after, its so easy to see the actual USA flag as a cross between Grand Union Flag and personal Washington flag "blue with 13 six-pointed stylized stars (Anglican rose/Marian star)", just with stars changed in number (as the states grown) and from six-pointed to five-pointed.
I think a new article Washington's Commander-in-Chief Flag is good idea to be made, where to expose all about that flag, but at least a .svg picture of this Washington's flag is required.
A good bit of what you are saying here seems to be synthesis. Boiling it down, what are you trying to add or change here and what is your source? - SummerPhDv2.016:49, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
Other about:
"Revolutionary Americans adopted various symbols to represent the new republic that they created after the Declaration of Independence," said Dr. R. Scott Stephenson, vice president of collections, exhibitions and programs for the museum. "Washington's Standard includes a blue field with thirteen white stars representing a new constellation, which Congress adopted in 1777 as a component of the now familiar 'Star-Spangled Banner.'"
source:
witf.org "George Washington's battlefield flag on view at revolution museum"
(Written by The Associated Press | Jun 14, 2018 12:18 PM )
Can we put in the following section for 'symbolism' with the following similar or quoted content:
"Symbolism of the American Flag
The Symbolism of the American Flag is of revolutionary significance. Beginning with 13, the now 50 stars displayed in the canton of the flag represent the current number of states in the union. This number has followed the growth of the united-states since its infancy. Found from a book about the symbolism of the American Flag published in 1977 by the House of Representatives we read:
"The star is a symbol of the heavens and the divine goal to which man has aspired from time immemorial; the stripe is symbolic of the rays of light emanating from the sun."
The Symbolism of the Flag's ColorsAlternating in red and white, the 13 stripes also represent the 13 original colonies that joined together to declare their independence from Britain in order to establish themselves as a sovereign nation.
Betsy Ross US FlagOriginally, the colors red, white and blue had neither specific meaning nor representation when the flag was adopted in 1777. However, the colors in the Great Seal of the United States did have specific meanings. Charles Thompson, Secretary of the Continental Congress, reporting to Congress on the Seal, stated:
"The colors of the pales (the vertical stripes) are those used in the flag of the United States of America; White signifies purity and innocence, Red, hardiness & valour, and Blue, the color of the Chief (the broad band above the stripes) signifies vigilance, perseverance & justice."
More information on the Symbolism of the American Flag can be found here."
This above is a verbatium copy from this source: https://www.colonialflag.com/symbolism-of-the-red-white-and-blue/
But it gives a better background/explanation of the symbolism behind the flag, which I was bummed wasn't found on this page currently. I am not clear how best to source or copy , and I'm not great at editing wiki's anymore, so I leave it to the power users to decide and hopefully implement. Thanks! Time Dilation Theory (talk) 20:13, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
I too would like to see something canonical on this subject of the flag. I was looking for a description of the symbolism behind the parts and design of the flag, and was disappointed to not find it. Mrsuperboot (talk) 17:31, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
We probably should have something in about the commonly repeated claim of the colors symbolism. That statement is a bit too "just so", though.
Here's what I've come up with:
Originally, the colors were not intended to symbolize anything and were most likely simply borrowed from the Union Jack.
The supposed symbolism of red, white and blue is drawn from heraldry. Charles Thomson, Secretary of the Continental Congress, discussing the proposed U.S. Seal, gave symbolic meanings for the colors in the seal, drawn from heraldry with white signifying purity and innocence; red, hardiness and valor; and blue signifying vigilance, perseverance and justice. Over time, that explanation came to be associated with the flag.
Over the years, other interpretations have included that red is for the blood of patriots, spilled in the fight to protect the country. In 1986, president Ronald Reagan gave his own interpretation, saying, "The colors of our flag signify the qualities of the human spirit we Americans cherish. Red for courage and readiness to sacrifice; white for pure intentions and high ideals; and blue for vigilance and justice."[1]
I would like to request a change to the table in the "Historical progression of designs" subsection. The flag used between 1795 and 1818 is the only one to have a number of stripes other than 13, so it strikes me as needlessly taking up space to have a "Number of stripes" column in the table. It would make more sense, in my opinion, to remove the column and instead add something to the "States represented by new stars" column saying that the 1795-1818 flag was the only one to have 15 stripes.
My request: Please remove the "Number of stripes" column in the table under the "Historical progression of designs" subsection, and instead add some text to the 1795-1818 flag explaining that this was the only version to have 15 stripes. This is how I want the table to look:
The encyclopedia britannica (1993 edition, article Stars and Stripes)
reports an Hulbert Flag with the 13 stars in a diamond (1-3-5-3-1).
reports a 76 or Bennington flag that is an heavy exception to the approved rules of the time.
says that the proportions were standardized in 1912; I feel that this year may be extracted from the section Design, but I would like to find it stated just before the comment on the standardization of colors in 1934
says that the union of the Grand Union Flag is not the Union Jack, but its predecessor British Union Flag
Mousing from the screen into a file, I have noted the existence of files named WagonwheelStar.svg or something like. I do not know if these filenames correspond to almost-official nicknames or are simply tools of the article's authors (I am italian, as should be clear from the poor form of the above sentence), but if have a minimal agreement are surely more interesting than the number of stripes
There is no mention of the influence of the Washington family (ancestors of George Washington) flag which is red stripes on a white background with red stars. There are quite a few articles linking this to the design of the US flag. It would be great to have this considered, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.76.131 (talk) 06:55, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
We've discussed this question here and on other U.S. flag related articles. While we have any number of questionable sources alluding to a similarity or guessing at a connection, I haven't seen anyone bringing up a reliable source for a connection yet.
From what little I have seen, there is nothing particularly uncommon in the colors and designs that would make the similarlity surprising.
It looked to me like there was a mention of this claim, oddly under the heading "Designer of the first stars and stripes," but not much elaboration. I've moved the topic to be under the "First flag" heading, which discusses the Grand Union Flag design and another possible inspiration for the stripes (the flag of the East India Company). I've also found a couple of seemingly reliable book sources, and a citation from the library at Washington's Mount Vernon, that state that this is widely repeated but quite likely false. I do think it warrants some discussion here, because it is pretty widely believed or at least claimed -- at least widely enough that several sources felt the need to look into it and debunk it. --EightYearBreak (talk) 17:13, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. BilCat (talk) 08:16, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Use on US spacecraft
Resolved
The flag was not painted on the first two US manned spacecraft (suborbital flights of Shepard and Grissom), contrary to this article. It was first painted on Glenn’s capsule. The text would be correct if it said “designed for orbital manned flight.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:9000:DD0D:5A00:A449:31C2:232C:99F8 (talk) 11:32, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
Good suggestion. It's not necessarily about orbital flight, since spacecraft from Blue Origin also have the flag. It's just spacecraft starting from Friendship 7, so I added that. Thanks! Theaquariumest (talk) 15:22, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Requested move 11 June 2020
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Procedural close. The original nomination was changed by another user, causing disruption to the original proposal. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:11, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Flag of Spain → Spanish Flag – per WP:COMMONNAME. This flag is commonly known as the "American Flag". Very rarely will someone actually refer to it formally as the "Flag of the United States". And just as we use "Union Jack" as the article title rather than the more formal "Flag of the United Kingdom" or more accurate "Union Flag", so too should we list this article at its common name. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:47, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Comments - @Rreagan007:, are you the IP user who added all the other flags to this discussion? If so, fine. But if not ,this is unhelpful for another user to do. It makes this whole discussion more confusing, and increases the likelihood of a no consensus. For the most part, almost all flag articles follow a "Flag of x" format, and this is probably for the best. (I don't know if there's an official naming convention guideline or not.) The Union Jack is a notable exception, and shouldn't be used as a pattern for all flags. Otherwise The US flag would be at "The Stars and Stripes". - [[User:BilCat|] (talk) 23:19, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Thanks. I didn't think it was you, but I didn't want to assume either way. I'm not sure if it's a newbie mistake, incompetence, or gaming the system. I'm tempted to close out the extra additions, and let the original continue to run. I may ask an admin to look at this. - BilCat (talk) 04:13, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
OPPOSE (very, very strongly). These terms already redirect here. The Union Jack is a UNIQUE EXCEPTION due to the fact that the WP:COMMONNAME isn't "Flag of X" or "X flag", but instead it's referred to by the name "Union Jack" the VAST MAJORITY of the time. (It's different than people calling the flag of India "the Indian flag".) This move would have problematic consequences and would open up a gigantic can-of-worms (...where would it stop? what about territories and states? what about places with less-common demonyms, or controversial ones?). If we move this, we'll be inundated with unhelpful move requests that will only make flag pages harder to find. Paintspot Infez (talk) 23:22, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Strong Oppose ALL - No proof has been submitted to show that any of these alternatives are the most common name for each flag. - BilCat (talk) 23:24, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Oppose This doesn’t seem to be necessary to me and breaks the format that WP has used on flag names with no issues for a long time. If such a change is made, I would prefer the more specific United States flag to keep the same title as the main article United States. American, broadly speaking can mean the people of the U.S. or of the American continent(s), so United States would be the most specific (and least contentious) in this case. Garuda28 (talk) 23:26, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
American Flag already redirects here, as this article is the primary topic for that title,.and rightly so. I.was leaning towards support until the discussion scope was suddenly expanded. - BilCat (talk) 23:43, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
No disagreement on that BilCat. I’ve just seen something like that (which you and I both appear to agree shouldn’t be contentious) become contentious because of different readings of the word. Regardless, I don’t think it will be necessary based on how this is going. Garuda28 (talk) 23:45, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Support because in normal Australian english it is referred to as the Australian flag or more formally in Australian legislation as the Australian National Flag https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2008C00376 not the Flag of Australia. Being consistent on Wikipedia isnt a valid reason to denigrate the Australian National Flag by referring to by a name that is neither Official or informally accepted usages. Gnangarra00:33, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
The 50-star flag is 19:10. From Flag of Israel: "The flag was ten feet by six feet--in the same proportions as the flag of the United States--and became known as the Flag of Zion. It was accepted as the official Zionist flag at the Second Zionist Congress held in Switzerland in 1898". Was the US flag then 1 2/3:1? For those <=48-star versions for which there was an official aspect ratio, could that ratio be listed? Thank you. JDAWiseman (talk) 10:01, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Until well into the 19th century, there was no detailed flag specification except internal U.S. Navy documents regulating flags to be purchased by the Navy (the first such document in 1818)... AnonMoos (talk) 04:48, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
Done That was a mess. I added Mothers Day, Fathers Day, Christmas, and Easter. Also removed the random trivia about Robert E. Lee and Washington's actual birthday. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:01, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Done. No corroboration could be found, so the sentence in question has been removed. OUR Wikipedia (not "mine")! Paine 06:21, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the 
.jpg)
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 02:59, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
Comment: In the original edit I find the text 
Grand Union Flag
Hopkinson Flag
Flag of the United States (1777–1795).svg)
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. BilCat (talk) 08:16, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
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