Talk:Flag of Switzerland

Article is not about the Coat of Arms of Switzerland, but rather only about the flag. ナイトスタリオン ✉ 22:44, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Support It's true. Stefán Ingi 00:52, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Could move it to Swiss insignia or something and add information for the coat of arms and ensign, etc. Information and media is at hand. ¦ Reisio 13:13, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, all the other countries have separate articles for flag and coat of arms, and I'm personally in favour of keeping it that way... ナイトスタリオン ✉ 14:46, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Ah, works for me. :) ¦ Reisio 22:50, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

The following comment was left by User:141.158.195.126 as an edit summary. Sandstein 15:27, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

it is a real good webpage for reports!

2:3 ratio for the Olympics

Hi! Why is the 2:3 ratio of the civil ensign used for the Olympic Games instead of the normal 1:1 square? Perhaps a mention could be made in the article? Thanks much! --70.21.22.21 11:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Very late answer, but the Olympics doesn't care about the regular proportion of a flag and represent all country with a 2:3 ratio flag. For most country, the change isn't much visible, but for some flag like Switzerland or Nepal, the changed flags are striking to people's eyes. ChaseYUL99 (talk) 20:25, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Origin

Isn't the Swiss flag based on the flag of the old Burgundian flag, later of the house of Savoy (the same bloodline?) and today still used by the region of Savoy in France and Piemonte in Italy? 94.212.33.150 (talk) 13:02, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Evidence, 1330s-1540s

This is surprisingly difficult. It seems to be clear that the sown-on white cross (on combatants dress) is early, dating to at least the battle of Laupen, 1339. So that would be the origin of the "swiss cross". But this doesn't make for a flag, and it doesn't qualify as a white cross in a red field, the background being incidential, depending on what the cross was attached to.

The question thus shifts to, were there ever any war flags representing the confederacy (as opposed to individual member cantons), and if so when and in what form. For this, we have the FOTW account by T.F. Mills, posted back in 1997. T.F. Mills is usually very well informed, and his account sounds credible, but in this case he simply fails to cite any source. The relevant passage is:

While the cantons of the Swiss Confederation went to war flying their individual banners, they soon recognised the need for a common recognition sign, and as early as 1339 at the battle of Laupen, troops wore a long-armed narrow white linen cross stitched on their breasts, sleeves and thighs. Soon afterwards, cantonal detachment started putting this white cross on their cantonal banners. Besides its familiar bear flag, powerful Bern had a red over black guidon, and white cross on the red part of their banner became a major sign of recognition. At the battle of Arbedo in 1422 and quite regularly thereafter, mixed levies from more than one Canton carried red triangular guidons with a white cross (see image). The last time this triangular guidon appeared in battle was in 1540, by which time it was already evolving into a full four-sided flag. All these uses of the Confederate cross became increasingly important since Confederation armies were likely to meet other Swiss mercenary troops in the employ of enemies. But 1540 was also the last time a Swiss confederate army was called out until the French invasion of 1798, so the white cross on a red field disappeared from use. The Confederation remained the loosest and most decentralised of governments, and while it had no flag there remained a state seal recognised throughout Europe as the insignia of the Thirteen Cantons. It was a white cross "traversante" on a red shield, and it came to be known in Switzerland as the "federal cross".

The points that need to be checked are:

• the red background became recognized based on the flag of Berne fixing the white cross on the red (rather than via the flag of Schwyz)
• a separate triangular banner representing the confederacy was flown at Arbedo in 1422, and also in later battles
• during the late 15th or early 16th century, this triangular confederate flag was also seen in a four-sided variant
• there was a "state seal" of the confederacy showing a cross "traversante" in use after 1540

I tried and failed in verifying each of these four points.

For the triangular banner, there is at least pictorial evidence from the 1470s. While Tschachtlan in his depiction of Arbedo fails to show any flag other than the cantonal ones (without added crosses on the flags, but the combatants wear the cross as a field sign on their red dresses), the same author in the depiction of St. Jakob an der Birs (1444) shows the triagular flag as the only confederate flag shown. This may be because the composition did not allow to show the individual cantonal flags. But perhaps the idea is that these aren't cantonal troops, they are only a reconnaissance mission that had itself caught in a battle, so perhaps they wouldn't have carried any cantonal flags with them but precisely the Banner Mills describes instead. If this is the idea behind this depiction, we must still say that the reference dates to 1470, depicting a scene of the 1440s.

As for the cross fixed to cantonal flags, and the rectangular (square) confederate flag, I find very little evidence. There is the Luzerner Schilling (1513), showing the Swiss mercenaries at the Battle of Nancy (1477). Here we see the cantonal flags each with a white cross. Those flags that do have a red field invariably attach the cross on that. The flag of Berne notably omits the bear, simply showing the black-and-red cantonal colours. The flags of Unterwalden and Solothurn are identical and carried side by side. There is the flag of Glarus, looking surprisingly similar to the modern design, and there is the flag of Schwyz carried in front, looking exactly like the modern national flag, showing a larger white cross centered on the solid red flag. The flags without any red field are those of Zurich, Zug, Fribourg, Lucerne and Appenzell. The flag of Zurich is partially obscured, and the cross isn't visible. Also no visible cross on the flag of Fribourg. The flag of Zug shows the white cross on the blue, while the flag of Lucerne has it in the center, in front of both the blue and white fields. The flag of Appenzell (or is it Schaffhausen?) like that of Berne omits the heraldic animal and only shows the cantonal colours, black and yellow, with the cross fixed on the yellow. It should be noted that Solothurn, Fribourg and Appenzell/Schaffhausen were not full members of the confederacy at the time of the scene depicted, but they were by the time this image was made. So it is somewhat open to question whether they would really have attached the confederate cross to their flag. But since they were definitely in league with the Swiss, it's not implausible that they would.

In any case, from the above, it is clear that the "flag of Switzerland" shown in the Nancy image is simply the flag of Schwyz, and not intended as representing the confederacy as a whole.

As for the "state seal" thing, I found no evidence of that whatsoever. The only thing I could find in this regard is the Patenmedallie of 1547, given by the confederacy as a gift to Princess Claude. In this depiction, the thirteen coats of arms of the cantons are shown, and in the center "A hand in glory holding a scroll" (not a Swiss cross). But this document depicts the obverse of the medal, which shows a large cross in the center that would today be interpreted as a "swiss cross" -- but is it? It is not surrounded by the cantonal coats of arms but, flanked by two angels and inscribed si deus nobiscum quis contra nos, it is surrounded by the "eternal associates" who were not full members of the confederacy, viz. St. Gallen (twice?, i.e. one coa for the abbot and the other for the city), Valais, Mulhouse, Biel, Rotwil, Three Leagues.

If we can substantiate Mills' claim that the cross was indeed a symbol of the confederacy in 1540, it seems clear that it fell out of use completely by 1600. There is no evidence whatsoever of the Swiss cross in the 17th and 18th centuries, it is only re-introduced in Swiss patriotism in the Napoleonic era, obviously inspired by the 14th to 15th century field sign discussed above.

The document linked above also shows a bunch of other allegorical or symbolic depictions of the confederacy from the 1570s to 1730s, mostly involving the thirteen cantonal coats or arms, but never a Swiss cross. Almost ironically, there is also a medal of the 1590s showing a central central "Swiss cross", representing not the confederacy, but the Protestant faction of Zurich, Basel, Berne and Schaffhausen, i.e. the cross appears in the context of the division, not the unity of the confederacy. From the above, I am confident that there was not a trace of a "Swiss cross" symbol from 1550 until at least 1750. Probably since before 1540, and until after 1790. Whether there was any flag of seal representing the confederacy in the period of 1470 to 1540 is unanswered, no more than an unreferenced claim at this point. --dab (𒁳) 10:35, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Description of the cross

The current wording «...arms of equal length are a sixth longer than their width» doesn't sound right. This is likely a literal, non-idiomatic translation from the French «...d'un sixième plus longues que larges». I propose the alternative translation: «...arms of equal length are one and a sixth times as long as they are wide», and will edit accordingly if no one disagrees. Courrege (talk) 08:46, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Latin term

The Latin vexillum Helvetiorum is not in use, either officially or unofficially. The only occurrence of the term I can find is here, apparently some type of "Swiss banner" mentioned in the context (afaics) of the burial of Henry IV of France (1610). --dab (𒁳) 10:33, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Flag colour

In the "Colours" section under "Design", the CMYK and RGB values don't match the Pantone values. CMYK and RGB show true red and Pantone shows the same red with slightly less magenta. Flags of the World says the red is PMS 485, which is what the Pantone value says. Rajdooot (talk) 22:17, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Vertical inapplicable symbol

In automn 2020, @OMGShay 92 has upload an edit applying the "Vertical inapplicable" symbol on the Swiss flag. I try to search source of this on the web, but I didn't find any, nor find proof that it's false (I search in english and french). Does someone have knowledge about the offical etiquette of hanging the Swiss flag ? ChaseYUL99 (talk) 03:00, 20 October 2022 (UTC)