Talk:Flag of Northern Ireland/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Video as source

User:Snowded removed the ITV video of The Queen's 90th birthday celebration on May 15 2016, during which the Northern Ireland flag was flown from horseback. I have reverted [1] per WP:BRD so we can have a specific discussion here about the validity of the video as a source. Miles Creagh (talk) 21:50, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Read WP:BRD, you were bold, you have been reverted. You don't simply reinstate it and lobbing a 1RR notice on my talk page just shows that you are seeking to game the system. The ITV video shows a very very brief sequence of a rider in historical costume carrying the flag. There are multiple possible interpretations as to the significance of that, including one in which it has no significance. I looked to see if it was reported anywhere and it was not. You need some proof of significance ----Snowded ^TALK 21:59, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I think you'll find it was User:Jonto who added the video as a source to the article, and a number of editors above seem to agree it is a completely valid source. As do I. So, you have been bold, I have reverted you. Time to discuss, preferably without the bad-faith allegations of gaming the system. Miles Creagh (talk) 22:05, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Actually the idea is that controversial edits once reverted are not added in again until there is a discussion, but I admit it is very easy to confuse the two of you. Lets see what other editors say. ----Snowded ^TALK 22:08, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

A video is rarely a reliable source. That one certainly is not. It does not describe the flag or its significance, and interpreting it yourself is original research. Furthermore it is a copyright violation not an official news report, so not a reliable source or otherwise an appropriate link as we should never link to copyright violations.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 22:09, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Your point on copyright is well made. However, ITV itself has made the whole event available to view online here [2], for another 25 days. After that, it will be archived, and per WP:Identifying Reliable Sources "audio, video, and multimedia materials that have been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived by a reputable party may also meet the necessary criteria to be considered reliable sources. Like text sources, media sources must be produced by a reliable third party and be properly cited. Additionally, an archived copy of the media must exist. It is convenient, but by no means necessary, for the archived copy to be accessible via the Internet." Miles Creagh (talk) 05:36, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

The video may be useful as a source in a section about which elements of the British establishment are more comfortable with loyalist symbolism. No more. Gob Lofa (talk) 11:13, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

The source should be reinstated with an ITV link. There is absolutely no original research or complex interpretation here as all the article stated was that it had use during royal events. The video emphatically demonstrates this usage. Jonto (talk) 15:15, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree it should be reinstated with the ITV link. Miles Creagh (talk) 16:06, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Sorry but a few seconds at a public entertainment with the riders in historical costumes does not support your edit. It could be a reference to the period when the UB was the flag of NI, it is not per se a current position. Whatever neither my suggested interpretation or yours has any status in wikipedia. That is what WP:RS and WP:OR are all about. If you need this explained by univonved editors get some clarification from the RS notice board.----Snowded ^TALK 08:04, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Snowded, Pull the other one. Are you trying to argue that those were the period costumes between 1953 and 1973? The video is ample proof that the Ulster banner is the recognized flag of Northern Ireland. Why do you have such a bee in your bonnet about it? It's a very nice flag. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 10:47, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm not trying to argue anything, I was illustrating that there are multiple possible interpretations that could be applied. There are so many issues with the short video clip that we cannot take it as evidence of anything. In general in wikipedia use of video\s like this is not accepted. I suggested that if you or others thing differently you should take it to the Reliable Sources notice board so that independent editors can clarify the issue.----Snowded ^TALK 10:51, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 13:37, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

There is no interpretation; simple observation of the video is required to verify that the flag was flown from horseback at the Queen's 90th birthday celebration on May 15 2016. There is considerable interpretation required that this is a British establishment conspiracy, or that the costumes are a reference to a period when "the UB was the flag of NI" (And, by the same interpretation, a period when the St George's cross was the flag of England, the St Andrew's saltire was the flag of Scotland, and the Dragon Goch the flag of Wales.) But I have ordered the official order-of-event and programme of the happy occasion online for a tenner. Maybe it will shed even further clarity on the matter?Miles Creagh (talk) 13:59, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

If considerable interpretation is required for you to propose a conspiracy, why do it? Gob Lofa (talk) 14:35, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Gob Lofa, Who are you asking? It wasn't Creagh who was proposing a conspiracy. It was somebody else further up the page. You need to read more carefully before responding. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 16:26, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, it was Gob his own self. Miles Creagh (talk) 16:32, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

No. Miles began talking about conspiracy theories at 14:10 on the 18th. I don't recall anyone introducing the topic before that. Gob Lofa (talk) 16:46, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, people can read what we both said above and make up their own minds, if they have interest. Meanwhile, I have reverted your latest edit here[3], as per the close of the RfC here[4] "There is no consensus at this time to include a sentence in the lead stating that there is currently no national flag of Northern Ireland". All the best. Miles Creagh (talk) 17:03, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

The RfC is nothing to do with the validity of using the video to support a statement without third party sourcing. I'll assume you are confused over this for the moment and simply revert that aspect. but if you continue to insert it without a clear consensus then you are engaged in a slow edit war and that can be subject to sanction. If you think a video is reliable evidence as it stands then check it out at the RS notice board for a neutral view. You will also have to argue weight. In the meantime you are failing to abide by wikipedia tules - that material is not agreed and is actively disputed by several editors. You have a few hours to self-revert to demonstrate good faith ----Snowded ^TALK 09:03, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

By my count I have performed a single[5] revert of the video material in the past 72 hours, while you have peformed three. If there's a slow edit war happening here, you are certainly engaged in it. Miles Creagh (talk) 13:10, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Pretty clear tag teaming. The issue is very simple, if there is no consensus to a contested edit then it should not be reinstated until there is consensus. ----Snowded ^TALK 15:54, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

WP:AGF. Miles Creagh (talk) 16:20, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

The general consensus here seems to be that it is completely fine on Wikipedia to use video as references, and ITV is a reliable source to verify that the Northern Ireland flag was used during a royal event. All the article stated using that reference was "used during some British royal events", something unequivocally demonstrated by the source and requiring no extra interpretation whatsoever. The only person with a problem here seems to beSnowded and if anything is a "controversial edit" it is not the insertion of sourced material, rather the removal of sourced material by Snowded IrishBriton (talk) 19:17, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Its been opposed by three editors experienced editors who work over multiple articles, supported by four of whom two/three are SPAs Sorry that is not a consensus and we have pretty obvious tag teaming and failure to deal with matters on the talk page. Looks like we have a wider behavioural issue here. I suspect this now has to be raised in a different forum unless you have the decency to self-revert and await a consensus position. I have raised the matter at the RS notice board as stage one. Once that is resolved we may need to take this to Arbitration enforcement ----Snowded ^TALK 20:19, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

I wish you had provided a link to what you have posted. I don't see how this is helpful, especially when you have just misrepresented entirely how that source is used in this article. IrishBriton (talk) 21:26, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

All the video proves is that the Ulster Banner was briefly used to represent Northern Ireland at a royal historical event. At other royal events – such as the Queen's Diamond Jubilee and the Royal Edinburgh Military Tattoo – the Saint Patrick's Saltire has been used to represent Northern Ireland. It doesn't prove that the flag is in any way the "official flag of Northern Ireland" or that it's seen as such by the monarchy. Below I've shown numerous reliable sources, including government sources, stating outright that the Ulster Banner is "not the official flag of Northern Ireland". This event was not organized by the monarchy, it was organized by the Royal Windsor Horse Show for the Queen's birthday. The event was "a celebration of the Queen's life", taking people on a "90-year journey […] from the excitement of the birth, through to World War Two, her marriage, the coronation and a reign of more than 60 years", using "horses, actors, bands and dancers to tell the story". Well, the Ulster Banner was adopted for the Queen's coronation in 1953, and was Northern Ireland's flag for a significant part of her reign. This suggests that the flag was used in a historical context. If the video is going to be used as a source, it could only be used to prove that the flag was "used to represent Northern Ireland in a historical context at a British royal event". ~Asarlaí 20:42, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

That is a lot of additional interpretation on your part there, as if clutching at straws. I would not agree that this is a "historical context" at all. All the article states was "used at British royal events". IrishBriton (talk) 21:11, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

You are incorrect. As Miles has stated elsewhere "the event was held at the Royal Windsor Horse show arena, it was organised by - oddly enough - the organising committee for The Queen's 90th Birthday Celebration, (Patron HRH The Prince of Wales, Chairman Sir Mike Rake)." Jonto (talk) 13:04, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Three independent editors at the RS notice board have all now said that the source fails UNDUE - if only wikipedia editors notice something then it ain't notable. Three experienced editors have removed the addition here. Four editors have variously reinstated it. That makes a clear lack of any consensus for insertion of the reference. If nothing changes then it gets removed again. If it is then reinstated without a change in consensus it does to ArbCom enforcement for action ----Snowded ^TALK 10:44, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

You fail to mention how you entirely misrepresented how the source is used in the article, and based the discussion on this misrepresentation. It has been confirmed as a reliable source to state the obvious fact that it was in use during a royal event. Whether or not something has undue weight requires intricate knowledge of the topic at hand and so should be discussed here -- it is of no business of the reliable sources notice board. Jonto (talk) 13:04, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

You really need to stop the personal attacks. You made that point on the RS notice board and I don't see anyone picking you up on it. I'm also afraid that the RS notice board is respected as an independent source. You only have a 4:3 "majority" in favour of inclusion anyway so the 0:3 on the the RS notice board makes it pretty definitive that it should be removed. Unless anything changes I'll do that tomorrow and if you revert it again then that reversion, plus your personal attacks get referred for admin review and possible ArbCom enforcement. Often that is a topic ban ----Snowded ^TALK 22:10, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

RS noticboard is discussing everything but how the source is used in the article, due to the way you misrepresented the desired use. Nothing said there counts unless it gets back on topic to discuss what is a remit to discuss there.

You would also be a more constructive resource towards Wikipedia if you stopped making threats of bureaucracy to everyone who disagreed with you. I will not be bullied by someone with far too much time on their hands. You are not only wasting your time but that of numerous editors Jonto (talk) 02:55, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Snowded the video is a primary source and is open to interpretation I've removed it. Mo ainm~Talk 22:25, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Primary sources are permitted as long as it does not require complex interpretation. Even User:Snowded acknowledges that the video patently illustrates the Northern Ireland flag being flown at this royal event -- the article states nothing more than this. Jonto (talk) 02:55, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Second paragraph

As it stands I don't see why the second paragraph is needed. The fact that the Union Flag is flown from central government buildings has no relevance to the flag of Northern Ireland. As made clear by the reference used, all UK government buildings are required to fly the Union Flag on the designated days. Northern Ireland is only unique in needing legislation in order to enforce the requirement. There seems to be an implication that it is standard practice to fly something else in other parts of the UK. This is not true. The national flag of England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland are cannot flown at UK government buildings. The only exception is on holidays celebrating the relevant Patron saint. Thus the flag of St. George may be flown from a UK government building on the 23 April and on no other day. It is likewise with the other patron shaints. So why is the fact that only the UK flag can be flown the UK government buildings only referenced in the lead flag of NI article? Eckerslike (talk) 00:34, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

True. Maybe we should make it clear that the flying of the Union flag on the specified days is common practice across the UK?Miles Creagh (talk) 14:10, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Rfc

How does an Rfc that ends without consensus cause the stable version to be overturned? Gob Lofa (talk) 16:59, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

WP:DROPTHESTICK Miles Creagh (talk) 17:23, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

After the RfC ended reliable evidence was produced that there was official support for the use of the Ulster Banner to represent Northern Ireland. I raised the RfC as I had seen none before and a good bit of evidence that it was deprecated. Consensus can always change and I can't support the RfC any longer given the evidence. As Wikipedia editors it is our duty to exercise neutral point of view. Dmcq (talk) 23:56, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

The RfC was problematic as it did not address the question of official status or not, but whether an explicit statement should be made at the start. Several editors felt that was un-necessary as it was clear in the text with a more elaborate explanation, It does not mean the RfC supported in any way a statement that the UB is the official flag of Northern Ireland. Gob Lofa is right in reverting to the previous stable text. If this is still disputed then a better worded RfC should be set up if people want to argue that the UB is an official banner ----Snowded ^TALK 09:06, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Snowded, I understand you have put in a lot of time in this area, which has been controversial, and perhaps feel a degree of WP:OWNERSHIP of the content. But ultimately we work from sources here, and consensus is always subject to change over time. That seems to be happening here, and the recent RfC reflects that. I'd just ask you to try to keep an open mind, and exercise NPOV, as Dmcq clearly has, much to his credit. Miles Creagh (talk) 13:17, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Open an Rfc here, with a direct & clear question: "Is the Ulster Banner the official flag of Northern Ireland?". The results will impact this & other articles. GoodDay (talk) 13:41, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

The same question could be asked about the St George's cross and England. "Official" is a dashed slippery concept in British heraldry and vexillology. I seem to recall we covered that ground in the recent RfC in any case. Miles Creagh (talk) 13:56, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

It is a pointless question as no-one knows or defines what "official" means.Jonto (talk) 14:26, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Miles you really need to stop commenting on the motivation of other editors. The RfC was on a specific question asked by DMCQ as to the inclusion of a statement. It was not an RfC on the official status or otherwise of the UB. GoodDay has the right of it there if you want to make a change or you can raise the whole question at Countries of the United Kingdom. If you really don't agree on the RfC then I suggest an independent admin is asked to review the close (it was a non-admin close after all). We can always do that in the context of the ArbCom ruling on the Troubles and get someone experienced in to review. ----Snowded ^TALK 14:44, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree with the RfC as closed, but would be happy if an independent and experienced admin wanted to review. As for commenting on the motivation of editors, you have characterised myself and other editors who have participated here as "Unionists", clearly imputing a political motivation. I simply observe that you are displaying major ownership issues, and encourage you to get past them. Miles Creagh (talk) 14:58, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Keep to content issues Miles ----Snowded ^TALK 15:52, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

We should all keep to content, and not ascribe political motivations to other editors. Miles Creagh (talk) 16:23, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Rfc: Is the Ulster Banner, Northern Ireland's official flag?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Is the Ulster Banner the official flag of Northern Ireland? GoodDay (talk) 15:19, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

How do you define "official"? Miles Creagh (talk) 15:22, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

That's for the rest of you to determine here. Since I've taken a 'neutral' stand on the Ulster Banner's status in Northern Ireland, I won't be supporting or opposing it's description as the Northern Ireland's official flag. GoodDay (talk) 15:34, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

You haven't taken a neutral stand on the question previously. Has your opinion changed? Miles Creagh (talk) 15:37, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm now neutral on the matter & have opened this Rfc, with the hope that this topic will be settled, with 'nobody' ending up sanctioned. GoodDay (talk) 15:43, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

When did you become neutral and what informed the shift in your position? Miles Creagh (talk) 15:46, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

The video-in-question, at Elizabeth II's 90th birthday bash. GoodDay (talk) 15:47, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

What aspect of the video caused you to re-think? Miles Creagh (talk) 15:50, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

I seen the Ulster Banner, along with the other 3 constituent country flags. Anyways, I've already stated my neutrality, so I don't see any need for further questioning. GoodDay (talk) 15:57, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Ok, so it was the display of the flags of the four constituent countries, in which the Ulster Banner represented Northern Ireland, the St George's cross represented England, the St Andrew's saltire represented Scotland and the Dragon Goch represented Wales that caused your re-think. That's clear, and I commend your open-mindedness. Miles Creagh (talk) 16:03, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

There are numerous reliable sources stating that the Ulster Banner is not the official flag of Northern Ireland. There are also many reliable sources stating that the official flag of Northern Ireland is in fact the Union Flag.
"How do you define 'official'?" – Surely, in any country, a national/regional flag is "official" if it's acknowledged as such by the government or by some national authority for flags and emblems? In the United Kingdom, the British government, the Flag Institute (which keeps the United Kingdom's national registry of flags), and the College of Arms decide which flags are official.
The British government and the Flag Institute acknowledge the Union Flag, the St George's Cross, the St Andrew's Saltire and the Red Dragon as official national/regional flags, and by law they are allowed to be flown from government buildings. They do not acknowledge the Ulster Banner, and by law it is not allowed to be flown from government buildings. The College of Arms also stated that it would be improper to use the Northern Ireland Coat of Arms after 1973 – the Ulster Banner is a banner of those Arms.
Here are the sources I've found so far:

• The Flag Institute: "The Ulster flag is different from the Ulster Banner, which was the former flag of Northern Ireland but now holds no official status".
• The Complete Guide to National Symbols and Emblems, Greenwood Publishing, 2009, p.486: "The official flag of the province is the Union Jack. There is no official national flag of Northern Ireland, following the Northern Ireland Constitution Act of 1973, nor any unofficial flag universally accepted in Northern Ireland".
• Contemporary Britain, Palgrave Macmillan, 2012, p.53: "The old flag of Northern Ireland – a red hand inside a white star on a red cross – has strong connections with the Protestant community, and is no longer official but is still occasionally flown. The official flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag".
• Clashing Symbols?: A Report on the Use of Flags, Anthems and Other National Symbols in Northern Ireland, Queen's University Belfast, 1994. pp.150–151: "In December 1986 the Northern Ireland Office produced an Explanatory Document on the [Flags and Emblems Act], which stated: [...] "Repeal of the Act would make no change whatsoever to the position that the Union flag is the official flag of Northern Ireland as it is of the United Kingdom as a whole".
• Flag, Nation and Symbolism in Europe and America, Routledge, 2007: "This Ulster flag was abandoned in 1973 when the Belfast Stormont parliament was dissolved, and, since then, the Union Jack has been the only official flag in Northern Ireland".
• Flags: Towards a New Understanding, Queen's University Belfast, 2016, p.6: "following the Northern Ireland Constitution Act of 1973, the Ulster Banner ceased to have any official standing, but there followed a huge increase in its unofficial use as a symbol of loyalism".
• Sport Northern Ireland, Promoting Fair Play in Sport, p.9: "Many existing flags have no official status and this includes the former Northern Ireland ‘flag’ (or flag of the Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland or Ulster Banner)".
• Peter Hain, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland: "The Ulster flag and the Cross of St. Patrick have no official status and under the Flags Regulations are not permitted to be flown from Government Buildings".[6]
• Lord Davies of Oldham, a British government member of the House of Lords: "The union flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland".[7]
• Lord Kilclooney, a Unionist member of the House of Lords and of the British parliament's Flags and Heraldry Committee: "However, whilst England (St George's Cross) Scotland (St Andrew's Cross) and Wales (The Dragon) have individual regional flags, the Flags Institute in London confirms that Northern Ireland has no official regional flag".[8]
• Fraser Agnew, a Unionist member of the Northern Ireland Assembly: "The Ulster flag [...] was a civil flag for Northern Ireland, but its official status was abolished when the Northern Ireland Parliament was closed down in 1973. Thereafter, the Union flag was made the official flag in Northern Ireland. That is a fact".[9]
• The Northern Ireland Foundation: "It was the official flag of Northern Ireland from then until the Northern Ireland government was suspended in 1972, and has had no official standing since that time".
• The BBC: "But what would you say if we told you that the flag commonly associated with Northern Ireland, has no official status?".
• UTV: "Northern Ireland does not currently have its own official flag, and the Union flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the only flag used by government".
• Flags of the World: "The Union Jack is the only official flag of Northern Ireland".

~Asarlaí 16:34, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

There are numerous reliable sources that state the St George's cross is not the official Flag of England, yet no one is seriously suggesting it doesn't represent England in common use, which indicates that the question of "official" status is a complex one in British flag usage. Miles Creagh (talk) 16:45, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

If numerous reliable sources state that the St George's Cross is "not the official flag" of England, then that should be noted on the Flag of England article – as the same should be noted on this article. But then the St George's Cross is widely accepted by the people of England as their national flag. The Ulster Banner is not widely accepted by the people of Northern Ireland as their national flag, and we shouldn't be implying otherwise. ~Asarlaí 16:59, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

This was the case on the Flag of England article until deleted recently by Dmcq. Jonto (talk) 18:42, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Asarlaí, I think we may be in agreement that the question of common use and popular acceptance is rather more weighty here than the question of "official" use. If by "official" we mean "in current use by the original armiger", then none of the flags of the four Countries of the United Kingdom are "official". The St George's cross flag has common use - to represent England in sport, to represent England in royal events, by local government, and amongst the private citizenry, but is disliked by a section of the population that regards it as a symbol of English nationalism, with which they are uncomfortable. That doesn't mean it's not commonly regarded as the Flag of England and identified as such on Wikipedia. The Ulster banner is commonly and according to this - "Clashing Symbols?: A Report on the Use of Flags, Anthems and Other National Symbols in Northern Ireland" by Clem McCartney; Page 2: "The flag of the Government of Northern Ireland is often called 'the Ulster flag', but we have called it by its official name, the 'Northern Ireland flag'...""] - reliable source "officially" called the Northern Ireland flag, and has common use to represent Northern Ireland in sport, to represent Northern Ireland at royal events, by local government, and amongst the private citizenry, but is disliked by a section of the population that regards it as a symbol of unionism, with which they are uncomfortable. The same section of the population, incidentally, is also uncomfortable with the Union flag. The whole flags issue is unresolved so far in the peace process. There have been proposals put forward, such as this[10] by Richard Haass. Note that this December 2013 article in The Irish Times pictures the Ulster banner, identifiies it as "the Northern Ireland flag" and says that the proposal is to "replace" it with a new flag. The proposal was of course not agreed by the parties. Anyhoo, it seems to me that the article notes all this at present, and we have just aired all these issues extensively in the prior RfC. Happy to continue to discuss, though! Miles Creagh (talk) 17:55, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

The objections to the Union Jack by nationalists are I believe more of a political nature and getting a bargaining position rather than any intense dislike. I read about some council in England saying they would never fly the St Georges cross because it would cause offence to Muslims as it was a Crusader cross, which was roundly rejected by a Muslim leader nearby [11]. One gets nutty councils everywhere but the business about the Ulster Banner is not like that at all. Dmcq (talk) 18:35, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Now how did I know that was going to be a Daily Mail story? btw no English council to my knowledge would ever fly St. George's flag on armistice day, it would be an insult to millions of Scots, Welsh and Irish who died. Pincrete (talk) 23:49, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Good question but not one that has a definitive answer I think. We can't say it is not used officially or no longer represents Northern Ireland. We can describe how it has been used. Sometimes things like this lie in a grey area. It is bit like asking if someone is a friend. The other flags have been listed as national flags in government publications, maybe it will be included too, maybe the Assembly will at last make a decision about it. For something like a flag having the sovereign smile and approve of an organised display of it definitely counts as some level of official support. Dmcq (talk) 16:46, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on verifiability. Surely, if in doubt, we should go with what the sources say? I showed in my last post that we've numerous reliable sources stating outright that the Ulster Banner is "not the official flag of Northern Ireland". These sources include government agencies, members of the government, and the United Kingdom's Flag Institute. Have we any reliable sources stating that it is the official flag of Northern Ireland? I suggested that the best way to tell if a national/regional flag is "official" is if it's acknowledged as such by the government or by a national authority for flags and emblems – none acknowledge the Ulster Banner.

The Ulster Banner was briefly flown to represent NI at a royal event about the Queen's life, but the St Patrick's Saltire is flown to represent NI at other royal events. It doesn't make either of them the official flag. ~Asarlaí 18:38, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

The United Kingdom Flag Institute is a private body, funded by subscription, not an "official" body, and no, flags do not derive "official" status in the British tradition through recognition by government. By that light, the St George's cross should not have been regarded as the Flag of England until 2012, when the UK govt first issued guidance on when and how it could be flown from govt buildings, but of course it was so regarded. Also, how do we account for the McCartney and Bryson/Queen's uni source referring to the Ulster Banner by "it's official name, the Northern Ireland flag"? An unofficial flag with an official name, is it? It could get very silly very quickly, which is why I prefer to avoid the language of official/unofficial altogether. I think we can do better and be more precise - although that said I don't have major issues with your most recent edits otherwise. Miles Creagh (talk) 01:29, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Asarlaí asks: ""How do you define 'official'?" – Surely, in any country, a national/regional flag is "official" if it's acknowledged as such by the government or by some national authority for flags and emblems? In the United Kingdom, the British government, the Flag Institute (which keeps the United Kingdom's national registry of flags), and the College of Arms decide which flags are official". No, not surely, if the any country in question is in fact the United Kingdom, as this [12] article from the BBC about the official status of Union Jack indicates: "No act of Parliament enshrines it as such - most countries have flag acts that set out, to the last detail, rules about their national flags. The best authority is cited in two spoken answers in Parliament - one from 1908, the other in 1933. 'There's nothing straightforward about the history. It has been adopted as our national flag without any national authority'." The Clyde Valley (talk) 22:46, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

What your source says is that there's no 'flag act' which makes the Union Jack the national flag by law. However, it's still officially acknowledged as the national flag by the British government, the Flag Institute and others. Also, the law allows it to be flown from government buildings. In contrast, the Ulster Banner is not officially acknowledged as the regional flag of Northern Ireland and is not allowed to be flown from government buildings. As I showed above, British government agencies and the Flag Institute actually state outright that the Ulster Banner is "not the official flag" of Northern Ireland. ~Asarlaí 00:45, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

A point of accuracy: local government council buildings are still government buildings and it is flown from there. Jonto (talk) 18:42, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Please see the discussion below. ~Asarlaí 22:42, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

The problem with those sources is almost none of them define what they mean by "official".

One states that by closing down the regional parliament that makes it "unofficial". If by these then none of the subnational flags of the UK were "official" until recently as none had assemblies yet had recognised flags, and England in particular is not. If it is that it requires a Royal Warrant from the College of Arms to be "official" then, as Miles states, none of the other sub-national flags of the United Kingdom are "official" as none are in current use by the original armiger.

It seems to be that undue weight is being placed on the Northern Ireland flag stating "not official" if compared to the other sub-national flags of the United Kingdom, especially to the extent it is being used to single-out the Northern Ireland flag for censorship throughout Wikipedia. This was particularly so in older versions of this article on Wikipedia, and given the timing of those sources, it would not surprise me at all if they have been influenced from here on Wikipedia on the first place. I have seen text from this article been taken word-for-word by journalists on numerous occasions! Even the so-called "expert" from QUB, Dominic Bryan, is seen on camera in the BBC interview browsing through an old version of this article when he obsesses over what is "official" without explaining what that means!

If Wikipedia were to be based on precision and accuracy, then it would be better to state where flags are and are not used, status with Royal Warrant etc. rather than just simply the ambiguous terms of "official" and "unofficial". Jonto (talk) 18:42, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I think it is ok to say "officially used by x" or "not officially used by y" and be specific as to who we are talking about -- I have tried to write in this style because leaving it open-ended is only causes ambiguous and contradictory chaos. Jonto (talk) 00:24, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Wrong question Is it used to represent NI at sports events etc? Yes. … Is it flown by some of the population unofficially? Yes. … Does it have any legal status? Probably no, but then neither do other flags. … Does it enjoy universal acceptance among 'locals'? Point to the controversy page. Pincrete (talk) 23:38, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps I should pull the plug on this Rfc. Folk here, can't even agree on what the definition of official is. GoodDay (talk) 16:27, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Like I said at the outset, "official" is a tricky concept when it comes to British heraldry and vexillolgy. It's also pretty irrelevant for the purposes of Wikipedia, which very sensibly prefers to give precedence to common names of subjects, rather than "official" ones. Miles Creagh (talk) 02:05, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I don't see how the indiscriminate sweeping phrases of "no official status" and "The only official flag" can remain in the article considering we have concluded we don't have consensus on a single definition of "official". I would also note the contradictory official use of the flag on council flagpoles by local government for one - what is official or not depends on the body to which you refer.

The phrases included in a version that keeps being reverted stated more precisely "not used officially by the current Northern Ireland Assembly nor by the British central government." for NI flag and "used officially by the Northern Ireland Assembly and the British central government in Northern Ireland" for the Union Jack. Surely we can all agree with these statements? These phrases define the exact official body in question and are what the sources support. I don't see why anyone should be reverting if what they are seeking is truth and accuracy. IrishBriton (talk) 19:57, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Previous RfC close

The RfC was about the addition of a phrase to the effect that there was currently no national flag. It had a non-admin close to the effect that there was no consensus to add that phrase in. I went through the comments and summarise the position below. On that basis the lack of a consensus is make a change is OK, although an admin might have weighted the number of SPA accounts in operation. Without them it would be 11-3 which would be a different picture.

What is very very clear is that there is no consensus to change any article to the effect that the Ulster Banner is the flag of Northern Ireland in other than the partial cases of use already identified in the article. The information below will also be relevant if this has to go to Arbitration Enforcement

Supporting (11)

• Dmcc
• GoodDay
• Daicaregos
• Scolaire
• Mo ainm
• LavaBaron
• Murry1975
• Snowded
• st170e
• Bosley John Bosley
• Asariai

Opposing (9)

• Jonniefood (SPA only edited on this issue)
• Cauleyflower (SPA on this and directly related issues)
• Mabuska
• 122.2.111.167 (SPA only edit) struck as only one contribution
• Miles Creagh
• Jonto (SPA on this issue)
• The Clyde Valley (SPA on this and directly related issues)
• IrishBriton (SPA this and directly related issues)
• Pincrete
• BoutYeBigLad (SPA on this and directly related issues)

Not relevant to the lede

• Eckerslike

I hope that helps get this in some perspective. ----Snowded ^TALK 11:23, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

So in effect nothing has really changed since I first mooted closing the original RfC due to lack of consensus. Also I can't find any evidence that the accounts you claim are SPA have ever been investigated for being such and verified as being so. Trying to hood-wink any admin who may dare venture into the issue? Uck who cares Wikipedia isn't a democracy. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:01, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Oh aye and with Scolaire retiring from the site as of the 4th May due to an asshole editor, the lack of consensus is more even between ayes and naes. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:07, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I simply looked at their edit history to see, clearly in the main single purpose accounts. The original RfC has a lack of consensus agreed, for ANYTHING which is the point ----Snowded ^TALK 15:32, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I believe Snowded actually voted both ways due to some confusion over the wording of the RfC, while Dmcq (who raised the RfC) has now said he has changed his poistion and GoodDay has gone neutral. Miles Creagh (talk) 19:13, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

the wording was clarified so I left my vote as it was, GoodDay and Dmcq can speak for themselves, although the RS notice board position (which is currently rejecting the flag flown at the Queen's event) might take them back from neutral. Even if not the point is that there is no consensus from the RfC which allows the insertion of the flag as representing Northern Ireland other than in very specific circumstances. ----Snowded ^TALK 21:53, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

You left your vote as it was? I thought you changed it? Miles Creagh (talk) 13:05, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

I'll accept the results of the Resources noticeboard. GoodDay (talk) 21:56, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Speaking as one of the opposers, I think it is a bit difficult to conclude anything from a poorly constructed RfC. No one voting appeared to notice, that in order to have a national flag, Errrrrrrrrrr you need to be a nation, or at least aspire to being one! The basis of my vote was to say what unofficial and semi-official currency any 'local' flags do have and point towards the controversy page and yes, by all means acknowledge that there is no widely agreed flag representing NI itself. Pincrete (talk) 23:28, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Deletion of use by local government

Asarlaí has deleted the use of the Northern Ireland flag by local government councils, despite there being a reliable source stating this is the case. He is doing so on grounds of original research not backed by a source. Unless you can provide a source explicitly stating that the Northern Ireland flag is not flown by councils, then the statement that it is used by local government should remain. Jonto (talk) 17:58, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

You keep trying to re-add the claim that the Ulster Banner is flown "by some local government authorities under unionist control". The only source for that is from 2004 and says that it was flown by three unionist-controlled councils back then: Ards, Carrickfergus and Castlereagh. That was twelve years ago, and those councils no longer exist, so your claim is unsourced. As you're the one who keeps trying to re-add the claim, it's up to you to provide a reliable source showing that the flag is flown by the new councils: "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material [...] Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source". ~Asarlaí 18:51, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

The councils' use has verifiably been in the article for a long time and supported by more than one source. You are the one claiming things have changed with new councils so the burden is on you to prove a change. Jonto (talk) 22:48, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

You're the one who's trying to restore the unsourced material. Read again: "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material [...] Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source". As I explained in my last post, there's no reliable source for the claim that the Ulster Banner "is still flown by some local government authorities". ~Asarlaí 23:03, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

It is sourced in the article and has been for many years. You are the user introducing change, not me. Jonto (talk) 23:26, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

How many times must I repeat myself? The source is from 2004 and those councils no longer exist. The claim you keep re-adding had not been in the lede for years until last month. You're the one who's adding it and thus introducing change. "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material". ~Asarlaí 23:48, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Asarlaí, this is basic stuff. Gob Lofa (talk) 16:52, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

I should not really have to prove anything as I am not the one driving change. You have already been given perfectly valid photographic evidence of the flag still flying on buildings of Lisburn & Castlereagh Borough Council above, timestamped after this amalgamated council came into existence. However, here is also a statement regarding flag policy from the Lisburn & Castlereagh council minutes themselves, page 373, asserting that the flag still flies in Castlereagh:

"It was noted that, until such time as a new policy was developed, the policies currently in place in the Lisburn City Council and Castlereagh Borough Council areas would remain in place".

I can also confirm, as Centuryofconfusion mentions below, that the flag is still flying on local government property in Carrickfergus. Jonto (talk) 19:38, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Jonto, The onus is on them to produce a reliable source showing a photograph of Carrickfergus town hall without the Ulster banner flying. And not a single google image search will produce that. It will produce the complete opposite every time. Having said that, this long running saga could be solved to the readers' satisfaction if all the facts were given. The relevant facts are that the Ulster banner only gained popularity post- 24th March 1972 due to the outrage amongst the Unionist majority (and it's important to not leave out the word 'majority') in the province at the suspending of Stormont, and that since then it is widely used by Unionists/Loyalists, flown above the town halls of some Unionist controlled local authorities, used in an official capacity at some international sporting competitions such as the Commonwealth Games, and used at the Queen's official 90th birthday celebrations to represent Northern Ireland. Those are the facts. Let them mention that the Ulster banner lost its official status in 1973 when the new constitution was introduced, but let them also tell the whole truth about what followed on as regards the frequent usage of this flag. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 19:58, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

So you're both arguing that you don't have to prove that something exists, we have to prove that it doesn't exist? Sorry, that's not how Wikipedia works. If you add something, you have to back it up with reliable sources. If it's not backed up with reliable sources, "it may be removed and should not be restored without a reliable source". You cannot use yourself as a source, and Google streetview won't be accepted as a reliable source either.

Those council minutes don't say whether the Ulster Banner is flown by the council. They're discussing "days for hoisting flags on Government Buildings". According to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, "under the Flags Regulations" the Ulster Banner is not allowed to be flown from Government Buildings. It was also noted earlier in the discussion that council offices apparently aren't deemed 'Government Buildings'.

If you can provide a reliable source saying that the Ulster Banner is currently flown by any councils in Northern Ireland, I'd have no problem adding it to the article. ~Asarlaí 22:38, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Lede now discusses situation since 1972, rather than only exact present, so now an irrelevant argument. Jonto (talk) 22:58, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Actually there is nothing wrong in stating the fact those former councils flew the flag right upto last year. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:04, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Let's give more Consideration to the Readers

On observing this argument more closely, I think it's time that we all asked ourselves what a foreign reader might be wanting to know while looking this article up. At the outset, I took the side of the pro-Ulster banner editors because I didn't like the manner in which the other side were attempting to deny the actual usage of this flag in real life. It came over far too much like censorship. When one can drive past Carrickfergus town hall and see the Ulster banner flying, then anybody who tries to argue that it doesn't fly there is not being entirely honest. In fact it only takes a google street search along High Street Carrickfergus to see that this flag flies on the town hall at the end of the street. Cheap arguments such as that the councils have recently been reorganized are not worthy of being taken seriously. The same applies when a video shows the flag being used at a Royal occasion. Anybody who tries to argue that this never happened, or that it doesn't mean that the flag is being used to represent Northern Ireland at a Royal event, is being less than honest. As regards writing in the lede that the Ulster banner has had no official status since the Northern Ireland government was abolished in 1973, there is a complimentary piece of information which has been left out of all the arguments on both sides. That is the fact that prior to 1972, few people actually knew that the Ulster banner existed at all. You might say that the Ulster banner only made its debout in 1972 at the exact moment when the Northern Ireland government (Stormont) was suspended. It was suspended by Whitehall on the grounds that since the army was operationally active in the province, that all security matters needed to be controlled by Whitehall, and that since the Unionists resigned in protest at this idea, Mr. Heath had no choice but to suspend Stormont. It was only at that moment in history, when large crowds of protesters gathered in the grounds of Stormont, that the Ulster banner was brought to the public at large's attention for the first time. So whether or not it lost its official status at that point in time, it did go on to become used for sporting events, and it is flown over some town halls. Therefore, it's one thing to emphasize in the lede that the flag has had no official status since 1973, when Stormont was finally abolished, but it's a different matter entirely to try and censor any attempts to make readers aware of its subsequent usage in practice. If you want to retain the line about the flag losing its official status in 1973, I think it would be fair to the readers to give them a bit more background as to why, and as to why that coincided with an increase in its actual usage. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 18:23, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

This is also why I object to it simply being simplistically placed into a box being simply called a "Unionist/Loyalist" symbol, particularly by the edits of user:Asarlaí. Much of the flying of this flag is more for Northern Ireland/Ulster Nationalist reasons and nothing to do with supporting the union between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. As Centuryofconfusion said it was actually widely adopted in a statement of rebellion to the policies of London government. That, and also quite a large number of people in NI do not give a toss about politics and describe themselves as neither unionist nor nationalist, yet would also have no problem in using this as Northern Ireland's flag for the sake of supporting our football team etc. Jonto (talk) 19:46, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Jonto, First and foremost, the use of the term Unionist/Loyalist in the lede is done in a derogatory manner as if it refers to some fringe minority of troublemakers. It's important to correct this by adding the word 'majority'. The true facts are that the flag gained popularity in 1972 due to outrage by the Unionist majority who saw the suspending of Stormont as a capitulation to Irish republican terrorism. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 20:03, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

You have a point. A good source for what you are saying is Our Own Devices: National Symbols and Political Conflict in Twentieth-century Ireland (New Directions in Irish History) by Ewan Morris 2005, page 205:

The main change to the use of symbols within the unionist community in recent decades has been the growing popularity of the Northern Ireland flag since the early 1970s, when it came into widespread use by loyalists who felt that they had been betrayed by the government at Westminster. The increasing use of the Northern Ireland flag has sometimes been seen as symptomatic of a growing sense of Ulster nationality...

This increase in use should be worked in somehow. Jonto (talk) 21:35, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

There are 2 more sources already in the article that say that use since 1970s has actually increased. Here is another one:

Britishness Since 1870 by Paul Ward 2004, Page 166:
"Since the 1970s the use of the Northern Ireland flag has become prominent, further emphasising the desire to stress an Ulster identity."

I think that without stating this the article implies that usage stopped in 1972/1973, when in fact the usage increased. It needs inclusion in the article and it makes no sense why some are reverting such additions. Cauleyflower (talk) 11:52, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Could we have less of your idea of history please and confine attention to the topic thanks. This is not a forum but a discussion page on improving the article.. And people were well aware of and used the flag before then, by more use is people draping it from lampposts and painting it on walls not increased knowledge about the flag. And calling an argument cheap doesn't make it go away, who exactly was flying the flag in that photo if that council was amalgamated into another one a month before? I'm not denying that it was flown but what exactly the streetmap photo showed is not clear, are people wanting to refer to it as being flown by the council there and just sweep any problems under the carpet? Dmcq (talk) 22:55, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes Dmcq, that's what we're doing. We're discussing how to improve the article to make it more truthful. The issue was never about whether or not the Ulster banner has official status. The issue was about whether it amounts to undue weight negatively by making explicit mention of this fact in the lede. You can't be allowed to play on a technicality in order to distort the wider picture, which is why I am suggesting that if you feel it so necessary to argue that it lost its official status in 1973, then you also need to explain why, along with the fact that it subsequently became more popular and more widely used amongst the Unionist majority population to the extent that it has the same standing in their eyes as if it were official. The question is, are you interested in presenting the truth, or are you out to mislead the readers into believing that this flag is only used in an unofficial capacity by a fringe group of extremists? Do you intend to continue with your silly games of pretending that google images and google street searches of Carrickfergus town hall don't prove that the Ulster banner flies above it, or that videos of the Ulster banner on display at a Royal event don't prove that the Ulster banner was there to represent Northern Ireland? It's time for you to demonstrate that you are here to build an encyclopaedia and not here as a censor of the Ulster banner. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 23:24, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

So what council was flying it? Dmcq (talk) 09:02, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

The one that's just been mentioned above your question.Centuryofconfusion (talk) 13:33, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

It was superceded by Mid and East Antrim Borough Council the previous month. It no longer existed. Dmcq (talk) 15:07, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes I know. But the Ulster banner is still flying above Carrickfergus town hall at this very moment. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 18:58, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

But we can't really say the council flies it as they don't show it where they sit, what we can say is that it flown on some council buildings like the text currently says. That was the point. Dmcq (talk) 08:06, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Sources in lead

I tagged a couple of sources as possible unreliable last night. They have been subsequently reverted with no reason given and I was told that it needed to be discussed first (this seems to run contrary to the way I've seen them used everywhere else but I guess this is a NI article therefore abitary rules are the norm). On closer inspection I may be able to be convinced of the CAIN source. Although it is a contribution from an individual of unknown credentials, there is possibly some editorial oversight which could make it weakly reliable. The Flags of the World is a complete non-starter. The pages a made up of a series of user contributions and states on its disclaimers page "The quality of images and news varies very much: the website contains not only well-known flags but also sketches and rumours, often seized on the spot from a TV report or a magazine. In any case we disclaim any responsibility about the veracity and accuracy of the contents of the website." How can that be considered a reliable source? Eckerslike (talk) 23:20, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

What sources do you need? Everybody knows that the flag lost its official status in 1973. Everybody knows that it became more popular with the Unionist majority after that date. Everybody knows that it's used at some sporting events to represent Northern Ireland. Everybody knows that it's flown above the town halls of some councils. Everybody knows that it's widely flown on lamp posts throughout many areas across Northern Ireland. Everybody saw the video of it appearing at a royal event. So exactly what facts are being claimed which you contest? Just tell us what it is that you don't believe and stop hiding behind silly arguments about whether or not sources are acceptable, because it's quite obvious that any source which proves, what to you is an unpalatable truth, will not be acceptable in your eyes. Are you here to build an encyclopaedia or are you here to censor a flag which you don't like? Centuryofconfusion (talk) 23:34, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't think Eckers is trying to censor, rather has a genuine attempt to make the article better. Jonto (talk) 23:40, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

OK Jonto, I hadn't followed Eckers's earlier edits. I thought he was just another of the anti-Ulster banner brigade demanding another shrubbery, but I obviously got that wrong. I was getting fed up with people demanding sources to prove things such as that Carrickfergus town hall is currently flying the Ulster flag when anybody can go there and see it for themselves, or do a google street search or a google images search. Such people are clearly not genuine, and their purpose can only be to hide the actual popularity and widespread use of the flag in the province from the readers. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 00:29, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

If you are referring to the citations to CAIN or to Flags of the world as I said when reverting they are both considered as reliable sources, CAIN about the troubles and Flags of the World about flags. CAIN has been set up by a number of people and organizations, it is not a one man effort see Wikipedia's article about it Conflict Archive on the Internet. The Flags of the World site is a foremost member of the world vexillological association with numerous people looking at it who are experts in the subject of flags and it has editorial oversight. Yes it disclaims any responsibility, who wants to get sued? See Wikipedia's article Flags of the World about it. Dmcq (talk) 00:11, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

CAIN is usually a reliable source because although they take contributions from outside sources the majority of the articles are published elsewhere or from are authored by experts who have their credencials listed at the beginning. In this case there is neither. The FOTW front page lists qualifications need to be an editor. They include "a keen interest in flags and a willingness to learn html editing. Graphics (flag images) require a willingness to work with graphics programs." with no mention of a subject expertise. Judging by the NI flag page, the editing involves cut and pasting posts from the mailing list. It reads more like a forum than an article. Eckerslike (talk) 08:00, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

They have an editorial staff and editorial oversight. They have a large number of people looking at them and checking them. They are recognized as major sources. They are far better sources than large majority of the citations we used on Wikipedia. Bring them to WP:RSN if you really must. Dmcq (talk) 08:29, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Flags of the Four Countries in The Guardian 24/5/2016

From today's Guardian[13]. "Flags of the Four Countries of the UK" are pictured and identified as such.Miles Creagh (talk) 02:31, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

What is it a picture of? Not sure why you are posting it here what is the point? Don't see anyone saying that the flag is not used. Mo ainm~Talk 08:32, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

The line under the picture makes it clear what the picture is of. Here it is used specifially in the context of Northern Ireland as part of the UK not a sporting organisation or historical government or whatever. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:06, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

The picture is of the flags of the four countries of the UK flying behind the union flag, per the plain terms of the source.Miles Creagh (talk) 13:52, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

And if you look above you'll see more than a dozen reliable sources—including government sources and Ulster unionists—confirming that the Ulster Banner is not the official flag of Northern Ireland and is not widely accepted by its people. ~Asarlaí 16:01, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

It looks like someones back garden, so none of you know what it is a picture of, you just had to say that. Mo ainm~Talk 18:42, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

It's not what we know, it's what the source says: the picture is of the flags of the countries of the UK, flying behind the Union flag. No more, no less. Miles Creagh (talk) 19:03, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

So somebody puts a few flags up in their back garden is that the source? And from the Guardian the bastion of neutrality when it comes to Irish matters.Mo ainm~Talk 19:12, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

No, The Guardian is the source. And it says what it says, like it or WP:DONTLIKEIT. Miles Creagh (talk) 19:23, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

And as Asarlai says there a loads above which state the opposite including government sources do you not like them or are you just ignoring them? Does the Guardian trump government sources? Also not sure a tag line on the picture of someones back garden in the Guardian is a reliable source have you asked over on RSN? Mo ainm~Talk 19:30, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I haven't seen any reliable sources at all that state the opposite, which is to say, I haven't seen any sources that picture those four flags and say "Pictured are NOT the flags of the Countries of the UK".Miles Creagh (talk) 20:14, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Have another look they are there and I'll throw a couple of flags up out my backgarden saying the opposite, we will be even then. Mo ainm~Talk 20:17, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Ah, but you're not The Guardian, (which may well be a relief to you). Miles Creagh (talk) 20:20, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Have you read WP:UNDUE yet? Mo ainm~Talk 20:24, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Sure have! Miles Creagh (talk) 20:33, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

And understood it? Because a picture of someones back garden with a tag line from a paper with a notorious past in regard to matters about Ireland is hardly the best source available. Mo ainm~Talk 20:36, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I understand you don't like The Guardian. I'm not crazy about it myself. Doesn't mean it's not a reliable source on Wikipedia.Miles Creagh (talk) 20:40, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

If the Guardian said that the UB was now the symbol for the whole of Northern Ireland in a considered article it would be a reliable source. A sub-editor using a picture to illustrate an article is not. It fails in the same way as the video of the Queen's birthday event fails. ----Snowded ^TALK 03:07, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Do you really think the retinue of protocol checkers went on holiday for the Queen's birthday event and they left it to the equivalent of some sub-editor tarting up an issue of a newspaper? 08:12, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I've absolutely no idea and neither does anyone else which is why it was rejected at the RS notice board ----Snowded ^TALK 08:52, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

It wasn't rejected at the notice board. What they rejected at the notice board was the that the video could be used to imply that the flag was in some sense official or not deprecated. And that's because that needs interpretation and we don't know why it was displayed. It can be used to show the flag being used at a Queen's birthday celebration. Dmcq (talk) 09:43, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

It was rejected as providing any support for the UB being the Flag of Ireland. A form of words to allow a reference to the Queen's Birthday was rejected by miles and if you check the response at that stage then neutral editor realised what the wider purpose was ----Snowded ^TALK 13:07, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I take it you are referring to

"The question is always whether a source is reliable to be used in a specific way - see the instructions at the top of this page. The limited use proposed by Miles is fine but Dmcq's proposed use is not, so the source cannot come in. Jytdog (talk)"

As I clarified there I was not proposing to use it in that way, I pointed out how it might be misused. I supported the use and wording as proposed by Jytdog and supported by Miles. Dmcq (talk) 13:35, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, a specific wording and a limited use was proposed by Jytdog and accepted by myself. Snowded seems to be suggesting above that the source was to be used to support that "the UB is the Flag of Ireland", which is of course inaccurate and quite ludicrous.Miles Creagh (talk) 17:06, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I had a look up of that picture and it is from a few years ago at The Auld Acquaintance cairn at Gretna. You can read about them at [14]. Lets say it is the inverse of one of those bonfires on the eleventh. :) Dmcq (talk) 09:57, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. I went to the Auld Acquaintance cairn, and I've been to an Eleventh night bonfire. Quite different experiences, but both enjoyable enough in their own way.Miles Creagh (talk) 17:31, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Snowded's removal of Jonto's edits

Can Snowded please tell us exactly what the offending line was in Jonto's edits that drove him to revert. For the first time the lede started to shine with a bit of truth. Rather than making out that Loyalists/Unionists are only a fringe group who's views shouldn't really be taken seriously, Jonto elaborated on the controversy and explained that the Ulster banner became more popular amongst the Unionist majority, and more widely used, after the suspension of Stormont in 1972. Jonto also provided a source to back this up and the source backed it up very clearly and unambiguously. I suspect that Snowded didn't like the acknowledgement that the flag is popular amongst Unionists and that the Unionists are in the majority, but I'll give him the benefit of refuting this suspicion if he so wishes, and explaining what his actual reasons were. Jonto's edits were very well balanced. He acknowledged that the flag is not officially recognized by the new Northern Ireland government and that republicans don't like it, but that is obviously not enough for Snowded. It seems that Snowded doesn't want it acknowledged in the lede that the republicans are only in the minority and that support for the flag is widespread in the province. It wouldn't be hanging from lampposts across the province if it wasn't popular. As a side issue, the only reason why the Ulster banner is not recognized by the new Northern Ireland government is because that government is constituted in such a way that a majority can't pass anything without republican consent. The only thing a majority can do in the new government is exercise a veto. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 10:12, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Damn those pesky minority Republicans not giving consent to 'are fleg', will they ever just lie down. It is hung "from lampposts across the province" because it is tribal marking noting more. Don't see it on lampposts in middle and upper class neighborhoods. Did the source you are praising mention the sectarian usage for the rise in popularity of the flag that it claims? The demographics of NI are not important in this article. Mo ainm~Talk 10:22, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

The demographics lie at the heart of the whole controversy. You are trying to play down the popularity of the flag amongst the majority community. We know you don't like the flag, and we know that the new government has a fudged system, but the readers are entitled to know the truth about its usage. I suspect that if you were given a free reign on Wikipedia that you would be telling readers that Northern Ireland is part of the Irish republic. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 11:26, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

You wouldn't believe half the nonsense this site would be filled with if they had a free reign... Mabuska ^(talk) 12:08, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I would. Given that most of the historical narrative on Northern Ireland here still reads like something from An Phoblacht, I think there is a lot more work to be done!Jonto (talk) 17:01, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Jonto needs to learn to use the talk page and stop edit waring over multiple articles. Some parts of what he changed might be acceptable, but not the imposition of the flag as the official one - and the fact that he is tag teaming on another article on the same edit and failing to observe WP:NPA probably means his/her behaviour is about to be the issue rather than any content issue. He should present the edits for discussion here - no one is trying to say the UB is not in use. If I had time today he would be reported for Arbcom enforcement but that will take time to put together so he has a day or so to stop edit warring/trag teaming and start to take an evidence based approach on the talk pages of articles ----Snowded ^TALK 12:10, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Could everybody just stop the rants and personal attacks thanks. Now what exactly was your objection? I would object to the infobox being put at the side as if the topic was that actual flag rather than the situation, it should be used at the Ulster Banner article. There is a reason there is more han one flag in the lead. Dmcq (talk) 12:25, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

The topic is "Flag of Northern Ireland", of which there is distinctly only one, dominantly known by that name. Therefore, there should be an infobox like every other "flag of" article, in line with Flag of England and even (God forbid! :P) Flag of Wales. Failing to do so is simply more evidence of the censorship agenda which has been at play here. The situation is covered by Northern Ireland Flags Issue. I'm not sure those other flags should be in the lede either, other than being mentioned briefly in text, as they all have their own dedicated articles already linked to. Jonto (talk) 16:58, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't like the condescending tone shown towards me in these Snowded comments. Maybe Snowded should take his own advice about "NPA" and "edit warring". What he calls "tag teaming" is otherwise known as collaboration and what we are supposed to be doing. I have added sources and content to this article; all I have seen User:Snowded do here is revert and threaten people with going to administrators if people don't agree with him (obviously too much time on his hands). The fact he states "his behaviour is about to be the issue rather than any content issue" is very telling as to the disruptive nature of User:Snowded.Jonto (talk) 16:58, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

The pair of you are edit warring/tag teaming and using one source already rejected at the RS notice board and one very similar one. You need to learn that agreement has to be reached on the talk page. You don't just say that you think you are right and impose it. If Jonto wants to make proposals for change here we can look at them. This is not the Ulster Banner Page, it is the Flag of Northern Ireland Page. The UB had that status for a period but no longer therefore the use of the Information box is a falsehood. ----Snowded ^TALK 12:28, 25 May 2016 (UTC)/

And the things you were specifically objecting to were? Dmcq (talk) 13:00, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Infoboxes are used on all flag articles (with various statuses) and singling this one out as not to have one is just another example of the censorship agenda at play here.Jonto (talk) 16:58, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Snowded, The fact that it has had no official status since 1973 doesn't specifically have to be mentioned in the lede. The manner in which the lede is currently written gives undue weight to this fact as against the manner in which its usage gained popularity in the immediate wake of the suspension of Stormont in 1972 and the subsequent actual use that followed on. You have avoided mentioning that the Unionists are the majority of the population and why the flag became so popular in 1972, and you have deleted examples of actual usage where perfect evidence has been presented. By all means mention the loss of official status in 1973, if you are so determined to do so, but then follow up by telling the whole truth. Also, I notice that you didn't revert Dmcq's substantial edit which you could have done on the same grounds that you reverted Jonto's. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 13:42, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm open to specific proposals for change, discussed on the talk page. Do that and you will find me open if it is properly sources and not primary research. Impose changes, mixing possibly useful or acceptable changes with ones that the editor knows will be controversial is not and we need that behaviour to change fast. Jonto & Miles are tag teaming, trying to avoid accepting known resolution techniques (taking something to the RS notice board for example) and refusing to use the talk page than to justify known disputed edits to the main article. When that behaviour emerges the only way forward (if they won't change) is to go to Arbcom for arbitration enforcement. There is already enough evidence to make a case there but I remain hopeful that we might get a chance. Joeto's personal attacks and edit warring by the way are different from Dmcq who is at least using the talk page ----Snowded ^TALK 14:59, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I think I preferred your sliming and threats to me on the Wales talk page. Just leave me out of that rubbish thanks. Dmcq (talk) 17:05, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Do not let Snowded dictate process here. He may think he owns the article but he is not the master arbiter of change he thinks he is. Please Wikipedia:Be bold and get contributing! Jonto (talk) 16:58, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I object to Jonto's change because it's hugely misleading. It misrepresented the sources and wrongly implied that the Ulster Banner is the official flag of NI.

• The sources don't say that "common use has increased", only that it's increased amongst loyalists. However, I've no problem with noting that loyalists began using it more after 1972 – preferably in the main body of the article.
• The sources say that the Ulster Banner "has no official status" and isn't used at all by the Northern Ireland government nor by the British government. He removed the fact that it has no official status and changed the sentence to say it's "not used officially by the Northern Ireland Assembly". That misrepresents the sources and implies that the governments might be using it unofficially. I don't mind changing "British government" to "British central government", but "Northern Ireland government" should not be changed to "Northern Ireland Assembly" – flags tend to be flown on behalf of governments, not assemblies.
• The sources say that the Union Jack is "the official flag of Northern Ireland"; he removed that, and changed the sentence to say it's "the only flag used officially by the Northern Ireland Assembly".
• The sources say that the Ulster Banner is seen as "a loyalist symbol"; he changed that to say that it's merely "associated with loyalists".
• The edit also changed the long-standing "used in some sporting competitions" to "used in sporting competitions", which wrongly implies that it's used in all or most sporting competitions. ~Asarlaí 16:36, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

And I object to many of Arsarlai's changes because they lack precision and make over-generalisations which are not necessarily true.

• Not once did I say it was simply "official", and this argument has been done to death. In fact, I kept the word "official" in the text and only use it to say the Assembly did NOT use it officially at present. If you want to be precise you need to say who is using it officially and who is not. It is still being used officially by some councils (even though I didn't use the word here). It is not being used officially by the Assembly. Precision please because it is not a black-and-white issue.
• Common use has increased both in general and amongst Loyalists - a fact. Not all who fly the flag are even "loyal". In fact the source states the increased use of flag was evidence of Ulster nationalist sentiment which has nothing to do with being loyal or unionist.
• Again, precision. Remove the word "officially" if you like - I don't mind as long as you are specific about the assembly. There is no such thing called the "Northern Ireland government" -- the legislature is called the Northern Ireland Assembly.
• "official flag of Northern Ireland" according to whom? The Oxford English Dictionary defines "official" as "Relating to an authority or public body and its activities and responsibilities". You need to define the authority or public body you are referring to to be clear -- lacking that, the source is incomplete and imprecise. I made a more complete statement as the Assembly being the body.
• It isn't simply a symbol relating to being loyal to the UK, as another source states, the increasing use of the flag is an indication of Ulster Nationalist sentiment. It is associated with Loyalism, yes, but not simply Loyalist and nothing else. e.g. also many people supporting Northern Ireland football and waving the flag are not thinking about the Union with Great Britain, rather simply supporting Northern Ireland locally -- a local patriotism/nationalism.
• The sporting statement actually said "represent Northern Ireland internationally in sporting competition". We are now only talking about when Northern Ireland competes internationally as a distinct team -- this is the dominant flag used -- is is not just "some" times.

Jonto (talk) 17:24, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I cannot see any logical reason why that edit by Jonto was reverted either. The content about "not official" was not removed, rather made more exact by referring to the official bodies in question rather than making an all-encompassing statement which is not true, especially considering there IS official use by local government and official inclusion as a protected registered design. The infobox thing could be a separate discussion, but all sorts of flags have this infobox so I see no reason why the Northern Ireland flag should be excluded.

Cauleyflower (talk) 12:28, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Snowded, I've got a few questions for you. By comparison with the lede as it stands, would I be entitled to write in the lede of the Union Jack article a note to remind readers that the Union Jack is only used by loyalists but rejected by Welsh nationalists, Scottish nationalists, Irish republicans, and other disloyal elements in the UK? I'm asking this because by the way the lede is written, one could be forgiven for thinking that being loyal is some kind of questionable behavior that sits outside the norm. Or could we say in the Stars and Stripes lede that many southerners reject it and prefer the Stars and Bars? Also, if the Ulster banner increased in usage after 1972, then it increased in usage, end of story. You are not in a position to qualify this by adding 'amongst loyalists' because you know nothing about who is actually doing the flying of the flag beyond hazarding a reasonable guess that whoever they are, they aren't from the Irish republican minority. Also, do you have any objection to recording in the lede that loyal people are the majority of the population? One thing is sure though and that's if the Ulster banner can't be presented in Wikipedia as the unique flag of Northern Ireland, then no other flag ever will be. And if we have to end up reducing the article to the statement that the Union Jack is the only official flag in Northern Ireland, I'll be happy with that. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 19:21, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Just stop the crap. You know loyalist here stands for Ulster loyalism, and they have often flown this flag to show their form of nationalism and disapproval of the government in Westminster. And loyalists are not the majority of the population, they form less than half the Unionists even. And much as some would like to turn the clock back the majority of people in Northern Ireland support the Good Friday agreement and the Assembly. Dmcq (talk) 23:21, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I think your analysis of the situation is wrong. The Ulster banner is used to represent Northern Ireland in some sporting events, notably the Commonwealth games, it was used recently in the Guardian newspaper to represent Northern Ireland, it was used recently at a royal event to represent Northern Ireland, it is flown above some town halls in Northern Ireland, and it is flown privately from many households, as well as from many street lampposts. It is also used by Northern Ireland football supporters. The majority of people in Northern Ireland are comfortable with this flag. A Unionist is a loyalist, Unionists are in the majority, and recent elections indicate that their support is on the way up and that it's republicanism that is in decline. It's true that this flag first came to prominence in 1972 as a protest against the British government's decision to suspend Stormont but this was not any indication of lack of loyalty, but rather a fear that Westminster were planning on surrendering to IRA violence. As regards your assertion that the majority of people in Northern Ireland support the 1998 agreement, this support was mostly on the nationalist side, while those Unionists who supported it did so on the promise of peace and the threat that if they didn't support it, that London would force the province closer to Dublin rule. The referendum result was not therefore a genuine measure of political opinion. So if it's officialdom that you are driven by, then reduce this article to the statement that the only official flag in Northern Ireland is the Union Jack, and create a special article for the Ulster banner and tell the whole story there without attempting to diminish the acceptance of this flag in the eyes of the majority of the population. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 10:11, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Now you're saying Unionists are loyalists? I'm sure a lot of Unionists will be oh so happy to hear that. How about going over to Ulster loyalism and get it changed before spewing such stuff here. Dmcq (talk) 11:11, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Correct, I take offense at being carte blanche associated with loyalists simply because I am a liberal unionist.

and create a special article for the Ulster banner - do you mean such as this article? Mabuska ^(talk) 15:54, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

By the dictionary definition all Unionists ARE Loyalists in that they are not trying to destroy the state in which they live. The majority of people in the majority of countries in the world are loyalists in that they support their own countries -- this is an entirely normal thing. The only reason you don't like it is because media have used "loyalist" to refer to paramilitaries -- this is a logically nonsense distinction by the media; it also seems to be a distinction for some to sneer at the working classes. Back to the topic of the flag, and to the word of the dictionary, quite a lot of its use is neither British unionism nor loyalism, rather to do with Northern Ireland patriotism/nationalism. Jonto (talk) 16:39, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Also why are we still going on? Dmcq's original wanted change didn't reach consensus, why are we still going on? Mabuska ^(talk) 15:54, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Centuryofconfusion, that is already the case and they're putting endless comment about an ambiguous "officialdom" in Ulster Banner as well. I've changed my mind about this and it is becoming a pain to maintain two articles with near-identical text throughout. I think the contents of Ulster Banner should be merged into here and Ulster Banner made a redirect. "Ulster Banner" isn't even a well known name. Jonto (talk) 16:55, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree that content from the Ulster Banner article and this article should be merged into one article titled the Flag of Northern Ireland. Miles Creagh (talk) 17:20, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Mabuska, That's what I thought too. But Dmcq's changes were made anyway. Regarding the article which you have shown me about the Ulster banner I didn't realize that it existed and I don't intend to get involved, because I think I've learned all I need to know on the matter. Dmcq drew my attention to another article which gives a specific meaning to loyalism within the context of Northern Ireland, which is different than its normal more general meaning. I didn't read the article carefully, but it struck me as being a bit of a rant, rather than an encyclopaedia article, with the purpose of trying to convince readers that where loyalty is normally a good thing in most countres, not so within the context of Northern Ireland where it is a bad thing, probably because it contradicts all the blarney that circulates in the USA. So I'm not going to get involved anymore. Nice to hear that you are a liberal unionist. I too prefer the Union Jack to the Ulster banner. My views were considered liberal back in the 1970s, but even though they haven't changed any since then, I'm now considered an extremist because I'd prefer to integrate with England than to have a devolved government, and I believe it would have been better if we'd never had the old Stormont in the first place. I'd even like the republic to rejoin the UK, and so I suppose that makes me an ultra extremist. I only got involved here because I spotted some double standards with regards to when common use should take precedence over officialdom. Londonderry City being an example. Am I forgiven for believing that Wikipedia always sides with nationalists? It certainly seems so. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 17:11, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

It sounds to me like you are looking for a forum where you can talk with like minded people. Dmcq (talk) 17:58, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Miles and Jonto, It's now obvious to me that neither sources nor evidence mean anything on these talk pages. They're just a red herring. Attempts to argue the facts, if those arguments are opposed to the nationalist point of view, are simply met with warnings and threats to block. And while officialdom seems to be of utmost importance in this article, the opposite is the case in the Londonderry city article. I'd therefore be inclined to concentrate more on correcting those attempts to portray loyalty in a negative light, as well as the attempts to avoid mentioning that loyal people are in the majority in Northern Ireland. That way, it wouldn't matter whether or not they mention in the lede that the Ulster flag doesn't have any official status. The higher truth of its acceptance in the province trumps that. Rants like this, Ulster loyalism, are just propaganda. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 18:11, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree. In many ways hate that Wikipedia exists, as it is a nonsense as an encyclopaedia and a lot of content is simply determined by whomever shouts their propaganda the loudest. In Northern Ireland we have a tiny population so what is the majority view here is often shouted down by those from outside who don't have a bloody clue what they are talking about. The problem is too many sheep believe everything written on Wikipedia, so the worst of the propaganda needs debunked. For that to happen people like you need to contribute and get your hands dirty rather than simply chatting! Jonto (talk) 18:58, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I've no problems with Snowded's revert of Jonto's changes, as those changes were made while discussions were in progress. WP:STATUSQUO & WP:BRD, should be respected. GoodDay (talk) 12:49, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Jonto a dictionary definition of loyalism is pointless here especially when used out of context. The contextual meaning of loyalist in Ulster a century ago is not the same as a loyalist in Northern Ireland over the past 50 years. The term since the 1960s in regards to Northern Ireland has taken on a more paramilitary context and association, which many unionists do not want associated with.

Also Jonto if you check many forums such as Slugger O'Toole etc., Wikipedia, or as I've seen it frequently called "Wikilies", is seen as a joke in regards to NI and Troubles matters due to the heavy bias certain editors over the years have put into it.

Also why would anyone want to merge Ulster Banner and this article? They are two separate articles, one about a specific flag design, the other about an entity the flag of which can change. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:57, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

And if you check other usages you'll find loyalist often has a paramilitary connection, see for example Loyalist (American Revolution) where the term loyalist was introduced at the start of the American War of Independence by a general at a meeting. Dmcq (talk) 15:52, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Commonwealth Games usage

Once again Snowded removed my edits, and in doing so he exposed that this was never about whether or not the flag is official. It's about attempts to over state opposition to the flag and to play down the degree of common usage. Snowded removed my reference to its use at the Commonwealth games. He also removed reference to the fact that the unionist majority community are comfortable with it and that they are a majority, and he also removed reference to the fact that the opposition only comes from a republican minority community. And although sources can easily be found, they aren't necessary because none of these facts are contested. I also noted that Snowded claimed that the rfc reached no consensus and then proceeded to insert the very additional clause for which no consensus had been obtained. And I don't like the fact that Jonto was blocked for answering Snowded back, as if Snowded holds some kind of seniority in this dispute. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 10:51, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

I have no problem with the illustrations of usage and straightforward descriptions of them. However I do wish you'd stop this might is right sort of business about common usage and in fact have you any source to show you are right about that? That led to quite enough trouble in the past, in fact I believe they were called the Troubles. Dmcq (talk) 15:30, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Dmcq, I can get sources, but they aren't needed. Are you contesting the fact that the nationalists/republicans are a minority? Are you contesting the fact that the Ulster Banner is used to uniquely identify Northern Ireland at the Commonwealth Games? Are you contesting the fact that the majority in Northern Ireland are comfortable with its usage as the Northern Ireland flag in sporting events and also more generally? My point is that it's not right to censor the use of this flag on Wikipedia in order to pander to an extremist minority. It's not about 'might is right'. If the Ulster banner can be used in many situations to represent Northern Ireland, then it can be used here too. There is nothing offensive about this flag. The minority who oppose it only oppose it because they don't like the idea of Northern Ireland being part of the UK. If we were to yield on this issue, then we may as well deny that Northern Ireland is part of the UK, for fear of offending the republican minority. Or we could take it further and deny that the Union Jack is the flag of the UK, for fear of offending ethnic minorities. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 16:30, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Citation not needed for a contentious statement? This is Wikipedia which is an encyclopaedia, not some internet forum. See WP:V and Template:cn. Dmcq (talk) 17:45, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

It's not only the Commonwealth Games which are being deleted without discussion or logic. I've already discussed all these points before but it seems some don't want to address them here and are rather just revert because WP:IDONTLIKE. There never was consensus for Asarlai's inaccurate edits (which he now is disingenuously describing as "uncontested" despite the fact that they have been contested as soon as he added them), so I must repeat my objections:

• Playing down use in international sport with the use of the word "some" despite every sports team I can think of that competes internationally as Northern Ireland using the flag.
• References to the use of the use in local government are being deleted. No nuance is present between the different strands of government and their differing stances.
• Blanket use of the word "official" in the negative is present despite this official local government use (and despite RfC above where no definition of "official" was given either). No attempt is made to define what is meant by "official status" by defining the official bodies being referred to, and when I attempt to do this by being specific and even acknowledging the lack of use by the current central government and regional Assembly it is reverted.
• Deletion of usage at royal events, despite excellent source, yet keeping that St. Patrick's Saltire has use during royal events.
• Removal of statement that popular usage has actually increased since the 1970s (article implies the opposite), despite being supported by 4 sources.
• Deletion of numerous uncontroversial sources, despite the fact that myself (and others in agreement with me) made the effort to include and not delete Asarlai's sources through merging.
• Inaccurate statement as to what Union Flag stands for and inaccurate statement on "only" considering Royal Standard is also flown.
• An attempt to present the flag as being used by only a narrow spectrum of political views. Presenting as an unqualified "controversial" despite most people in NI not having a problem.

Jonto (talk) 20:43, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Centuryofconfusion and Jonto: both of you need to stop asserting what you consider to be self evident and start using sources to support your statement. Then (critically) get agreement on the talk page before inserting contested material into the article. Misleading edit summaries and personal attacks/comments don't help either ----Snowded ^TALK 06:37, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Good advice, which we should all bear in mind. In that regard, Snowded, have you found any sources yet that support your statements above that either the Good Friday Agreement or the 2000 Flag Regulations from the UK government addressed the Northern Ireland flag/Ulster banner? Miles Creagh (talk) 14:48, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Jonto, Do we actually have a source which specifically spells out the fact that republicans reject the Northern Ireland flag, and does that source quantify the degree of opposition? We do have sources that say that the republicans are in the minority, and so the first sentence that needs to go is the one that states the flag is rejected by republicans, unless it is qualified by adding that they are only in a minority. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 11:32, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

What I asked for evidence on the level of support among unionists. Doing your own research and adding one and one as you see it to push ideas that are't in sources is counted as WP:OR. We're supposed to report on what secondary sources have though noting. Dmcq (talk) 17:04, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Dmcq, If you wish to play that game, then the same can be said about the clause stating that the flag is rejected by nationalists. Have you got a reliable neutral secondary source which explicitly states that the Ulster flag is rejected by nationalists? If not, then that clause will have to be removed. Indeed it might be a good idea to remove the entire sentence, including the bit about unionist/loyalist acceptance, in the absence of any secondary sources which can actually quantify the respective degrees of acceptance and rejection. We could then just stick to specific examples of its usage such as in the Commonwealth Games and by the Northern Ireland football team, where the sources are unambiguous. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 17:46, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

The article has a citation beside that which says 'this particular flag of Northern Ireland is seen as staunchly Loyalist'. I do wish you would take on board this idea in Wikipedia of citing sources instead of writing long streams of text on the talk page putting forth your own ideas. Dmcq (talk) 22:02, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Dmcq, there are plenty of sources which emphatically illustrate popular use, including Unionist support, especially since the 1970s:

• Morris, Ewan (2005). Our Own Devices: National Symbols and Political Conflict in Twentieth-century Ireland (New Directions in Irish History). Irish Academic Press Ltd. p. 205. ISBN 978-0716533375. The main change to the use of symbols within the unionist community in recent decades has been the growing popularity of the Northern Ireland flag since the early 1970s, when it came into widespread use by loyalists who felt that they had been betrayed by the government at Westminster. The increasing use of the Northern Ireland flag has sometimes been seen as symptomatic of a growing sense of Ulster nationality...
• Flags Monitoring Project 2006: Preliminary Findings Queen's University, Belfast. p.25. "The meaning attached by people to these regional flags can vary. This is particularly true of the Northern Ireland or Ulster flag which would have been extensively used by loyalists since 1972.
• Ward, Paul (15 April 2004). Britishness Since 1870. Routledge. p. 166. ISBN 978-0415220170. Since the 1970s the use of the Northern Ireland flag has become prominent, further emphasising the desire to stress an Ulster identity.
• Santino, Jack (1998). The Hallowed Eve: Dimensions of Culture in a Calendar Festival in Northern Ireland. University Press of Kentucky. p. 2. ISBN 0813120810. As some unionists grow steadily more frustrated with successive British governments, an 'independent Ulster' movement has grown. The Ulster flag has become more prominent, while the Union flag has become less popular.
• Loftus, Belinda (1994). Mirrors:orange and green. Picture Press. p. 41. ISBN 9780951612316. The introduction of British direct rule in March 1972 brought to the fore the local heraldic emblems of the Red Hand and the Ulster flag.

Unfortunately these keep being deleted by editors who are only interested in reverting, without discussion nor nuance, anything that doesn't show the flag in a negative light. Other sources being deleted include:

• Znamierowski, Alfred (2003). Illustrated Book of Flags: The Complete Encyclopedia of International Flags, Banners, Standards and Ensigns. London: Southwater / Anness Publishing Ltd. pp. 148–149. ISBN 978-1842158814. Northern Ireland... National Flag... Adopted 29 May 1953. Proportions 2:3... The banner of arms of Northern Ireland was granted by King George V on 2 August 1924. The star representing the six counties is ensigned with the royal crown and charged with the red hand of Ulster.Scan of quoted pages
• References to local government use deleted. Flying of the Union Flag: An Equality Impact Assessment. Archived June 15, 2007, at the Wayback Machine, Appendix C, page 80
• References to royal events deleted, yet kept for St. Patrick's Saltire Northern Ireland Flag flown on horseback during the Queen's 90th birthday celebrations on 15th May 2016 - from 59m:50s, YouTube Mirror

Jonto (talk) 22:25, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

And what does any of that say that the CAIN quote didn't? Do you know how small the independent Ulster support is? You're not trying to use that to show anything are you? If you want to show something one or two cites and a quick explanation is quite enough normally. Dmcq (talk) 23:21, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Dmcq, Replying to your comment at 22.02, that's not good enough. You will need to supply a source which explicitly states that the Ulster flag has been rejected by nationalists, as well as stating the precise weight of this opposition proportionately within the population as a whole, otherwise you are only guessing. And whatever opposition does exist is not so much against the actual Ulster flag as it's against any symbol of Britishness including the Union Jack itself. There is no specific opposition to the actual flag as such, only the principle behind Northern Ireland being part of the UK. If you can't produce such a secondary source written by a reliable unbiased author, then that clause will have to be removed from the lede as an unsourced guess. You might as well say that the Union Jack is rejected by Welsh nationalists, based on a guess. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 23:25, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Protection is needed

Be advised folks. I've requested full protection of this article, due to the continuing edit spats over the content, concerning the Ulster Banner's status. GoodDay (talk) 16:33, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't see how that is helpful. Jonto (talk) 20:44, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Until an agreement is reached on this talkpage, it's necessary. Otherwise, we risk seeing editors increasingly blocked. GoodDay (talk) 20:46, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

It's tempting to bring down the Katie block hammer, but instead I protected the page for four days. As a friendly reminder, this article is on a permanent 1RR restriction which a bunch of people have either violated outright or teetered on the edges of. It says on my TP that I'm on vacation but I'm available until this lock expires, so if you work it out before then, ping me and I'll look. Katie^talk 21:14, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

It's likely best that folks refrain from making any more changes to the intro & instead work out a solution on the talkpage. Otherwise, I'm guessing that blocks will be handed out, from this point onward. GoodDay (talk) 13:47, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Given the behaviour of editors who should know better, and the failure of the previous block length of four days, I've reimposed protection for 2 weeks (so that it ends fairly close to the end of protection for Countries of the United Kingdom). You need to all think carefully about your behaviour here. Some are being reasonable, but some are not, and remember that Discretionary Sanctions can be applied for more widespread poor behaviour than just breaking (or evading) the 1rr restriction.  DDStretch  (talk) 08:55, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Ought it not be the stable version that's protected? Gob Lofa (talk) 09:25, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

It largely is, though I will not accept what you think of as the stable version because it changed far too much and it was not, as you claimed, a reversion to a stable version at all. As far as I can see, the last version that was not disputed was the version that existed the last time it was protected. This involved a re-arrangement of the names of the countries to alphabetical order, a change to a title that has been edit-warred about, and the re,oval of a paragraph about when the Ulster Banner was flown at a recent ceremony. There is also a change to where a reference is cited. It seems to me that the only edit under question is the title of the section that was edit-warred about. I will change that to the condition it was in at the last page-protection time. here  DDStretch  (talk) 12:21, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

It's not, and I'm not the only one who holds that view. The version that was protected last time was also disputed; see the discussions above, e.g. [15] Gob Lofa (talk) 12:38, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Then you (and the others) need to start discussing it more here to reach a consensus, and stop edit-warring all the time! That is the end of the matter until some real discussions are held. I urge you and the others to exert your efforts in trying to reach a consensus, rather than continuing to edit war and thereby run the risk of having discretionary sanctions imposed on you. Remember that the restrictions imposed by Arbitration do not just apply to the letter of 1rr editing.  DDStretch  (talk) 12:46, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

We have discussed it. If you don't consider those discussions 'real', perhaps you could tell us where we've been going wrong. I restored the stable version while the discussion continued, a policy I believe was initiated to avoid edit-warring. Do you disagree with this policy? Gob Lofa (talk) 13:16, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Once again, I suggest you devote your time to discussing and trying to reach a consensus instead of indulging in wiki-lawyering here and throwing insults about me on your talk page.  DDStretch  (talk) 14:07, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question, and I consider 'vandal' an insult. Gob Lofa (talk) 14:25, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

It's a good job I never used "vandal" against you, then. I have complied with all requirements here. Read WP:PREFER where it clearly states the following "When protecting a page because of a content dispute, administrators normally protect the current version, except where the current version contains content that clearly violates content policies, such as vandalism, copyright violations, or defamation of living persons. Since protecting the most current version sometimes rewards edit warring by establishing a contentious revision, administrators may also revert to an old version of the page predating the edit war if such a clear point exists. Pages that are protected because of content disputes should not be edited except to make changes which are uncontroversial or for which there is clear consensus (see above)." So, I have done all that is required. Now, please stop this, and the sniping and insults towards me on your talk page.  DDStretch  (talk) 14:37, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

You're right, you didn't; you accused me of vandalism instead. Has such sophism ever got you blocked? I've been told that's a possibility, even for weeks. Thanks for the quote above; I direct you to where it says: "Since protecting the most current version sometimes rewards edit warring by establishing a contentious revision, administrators may also revert to an old version of the page predating the edit war if such a clear point exists." Such a clear point exists, so now you know what to do. Now, please stop this, and the insults and threats on my talk page. Gob Lofa (talk) 15:01, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

It was a standard warning. I might point out that to vandalize something does not necessarily imply you are a vandal. But I withdraw the wording and replace it with words to the effect that you were being highly disruptive by doing what you did, after a delay of 16 days, on a page you knew contained highly contested material with no recent discussion. And your protestations here and the manner in which you phrase them (using my own words in your own messages) just confirm to people that you are either wikilawyering or attempting to provoke a reaction, so stop it or you will get a reaction.  DDStretch  (talk) 16:17, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

And I responded by stating the reason for our policy of restoring the stable version, and I point out that your opposition to this policy is disruptive. If you accuse me of things of which you are more guilty than I, must I consult a thesaurus? Your figure of 16 days is way off. I'm not sure what you intend by referring to a lack of recent discussion; how many times do you wish me to re-state our policies on this talk page before enacting them? I think it's outrageous that you're threatening to sanction me for pointing out your inaccurate insults and the flaws in your justifications. It has a whiff of wikilawyering about it. Gob Lofa (talk) 16:36, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Irregardless of what version it's protected in, thanks goodness the article has been re-protected, this time for 2-weeks. Ya'll need to refrain from the edit/revert buttons & work things out on the talk page. From what I can tell, the likely result of this content dispute, will be vague. Readers will have to interpret for themselves, whether Northern Ireland has a flag or not. GoodDay (talk) 15:33, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

I also welcome the protection of the article: Gob Lofa's most recent edit ignored a couple of months worth of discussion on this page, and - more importantly - impeded the development of the encyclopaedia by removing a large amount of well-sourced content. As to the content dispute, I think the source-based approach being taken at Talk:Countries of the United Kingdom may well prove useful to us here also. Miles Creagh (talk) 18:25, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Far from ignoring it, I've followed the discussion closely. I've zero problem with the vast majority of the sourced content; I've stood on principle that the stable version must be in place while discussion continues, a policy that no party to this discussion can claim ignorance of. If editors were serious about adding non-contentious content, they would add it to the stable version. Gob Lofa (talk) 18:36, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Problem is, what you "restored" is not the stable version. Also, I notice you have been more active discussing here on Talk in the past eight hours, since your edit was reverted and the article protected, than you have on the substantive content issue in the past two months. If you have now been compelled to engage seriously, I regard that as a positive outcome. Now, when you say you have zero problem with the vast majority of the sourced content, do you mean you accept a source such as, say, the Alfred Znamierowski reference book, which pictures the Ulster Banner alongside the Flags of England, Scotland and Wales, and identifies it in terms as the "National flag" of Northern Ireland? Miles Creagh (talk) 18:44, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

That's a breathtaking statement, given the version I'm describing as stable was in place from 2005 until 10 weeks ago. Gob Lofa (talk) 22:08, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Maybe you should try engaging substantively on sources? The whiny wikilawering doesn't seem to be working for you. Miles Creagh (talk) 00:46, 7 June 2016 (UTC) 23:40, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

This article is where the dispute has to be resolved. Whatever the result is here, will effect the flags shown at Countries of the United Kingdom & the infobox at Northern Ireland. -- GoodDay (talk) 19:11, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Not sure I fully agree. They are related, to be sure, but the case has to be made on an-article-by-article basis. (Absent some agreed centralised Arbitration process, which seems unlikely at this juncture.) Miles Creagh (talk) 19:19, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Far be it from me to wiki-lawyer whinily, but you've failed to address how a text that stood for 10 years is less stable than one which has pre-occupied us for 10 weeks. Gob Lofa (talk) 10:06, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Football sources

Here's a BBC source with a photo of the flag being used by Northern Ireland football team members. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36432295 The article is of general interest as well aside from the particular issue at hand. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 18:45, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes, hard to think of a better illustration of common or popular use of the Northern Ireland flag than it being used by, and in support of, the national football team. Miles Creagh (talk) 20:31, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

It should only be put in with text describing it straightforwardly, in the section on international sport would be fine, rather than anything about it supporting popular usage. Dmcq (talk) 22:06, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I concur. Just for the curiousity of it, I see a street off the republican Springfield Road of all places in West Belfast are flying the flags of each country in the Euro's and low and behold they are flying the Ulster Banner as well. Wonders never cease for an alleged sectarian flag. Mabuska ^(talk)

Indeed [16] [17] Jonto (talk) 22:32, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Here is also a nice wee video or two for the football featuring the flag prominently. It would also be good to get a nice royalty-free photograph of a NI football match for the article, illustrating the scores of Northern Ireland flags that are usually displayed. Jonto (talk) 22:32, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I take it by royalty-free you mean "pre-licensed for common use", not "without a member of the Royal Family in the shot"? Miles Creagh (talk) 23:04, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Lol. It would be good to get a royalty-free image of royalty lovin' our flag (as they do) Jonto (talk) 00:47, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

And the Commonwealth Games http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/-R3jnz8Hwbt/20th+Commonwealth+Games+Opening+Ceremony/69DFwR2M83T/Martyn+Irvine It's not just some sporting events. It's the flagship sporting events. That's what's called "common use". No need to qualify it with "amongst loyalists". Centuryofconfusion (talk) 23:32, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

And Carrickfergus town hall http://ni_towns.tripod.com/carrickfergus/town_hall.html Centuryofconfusion (talk) 23:36, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Right, and Rory McIlroy[18] wasn't a loyalist last time I checked. Miles Creagh (talk) 23:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

This topic to be honest is a bit pointless considering the article already states the flag is used for the NI national team. Maybe a picture or two could be added with an appropriate description etc., but otherwise what is the point in this topic? Mabuska ^(talk) 22:01, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Pictures are a good idea, and not just for football connections. Town halls, Commonwealth games, street scenes etc. There are plenty on google but I haven't figured out how to insert pictures. I have only just worked out how to use pictures that are already on another wikipedia article. They say that a picture is worth ten thousand words. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 10:48, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

The Stag's Antlers

This is relevant http://blog.royalmint.com/the-2016-uk-coin-designs-revealed/ The Stag's antlers are on the 2016 coin. They are part of the coat of arms which contains the Northern Ireland flag. That's official use if ever there was. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 11:38, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Related conversation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

May 2016

OK so the flag has being reinstated without agreement on the talk page using contested sources. So .... ----Snowded ^TALK 03:47, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Ddstrech, I would invite you, or any fair-minded person, to read the discussion here[19] and determine who has been adducing sources and arguing civily about content, and who has been throwing around allegations of "gaming the system", "disruption", "tag teaming", "making false statements" etc . Miles Creagh (talk) 04:51, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Miles, it isn't the role of an admin to mediate on a content dispute. Ddstrech issued a warning on the talk page and another editor has chosen to ignore that warning. I took your Queen's Birthday source to the RS notice board and it was rejected by all the uninvolved editors. Jonto's response was to say they were not qualified to be involved while yours is to simply ignore it and support his edit warring. Not sure what else we can say about that ----Snowded ^TALK 12:24, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting Ddstretch mediate a content dispute. I'm asking that he consider whether you are stepping beyond the bounds of WP:CIVILITY with your various allegations of misconduct, and your imputation of political motives to editors who disagree with you. If you comment on content, not editors, we'll be fine. Miles Creagh (talk) 13:22, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

If you use the talk page before you edit the article, don't put in known controversial edits without agreement and respect the result at the WP:RS notice board life would be a lot easier for everyone. If you reverted Jonto's change it would show you are prepared to respect the rules around here. ----Snowded ^TALK 15:05, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

I'll think you'll find I have made extensive use of the Talk page to discuss sourcing and content, and edited the article probably less than you.Miles Creagh (talk) 16:12, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

It saddens me that editors who I quite like are on opposite sides of a squabble that risks a lot for them both. I suggest everyone stands back and waits for a suggestion I intend to make to try to make you all work more positively together for the benefit of wikipedia in this instance. Please try to not let your strong opinions get the better of you.  DDStretch  (talk) 20:11, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't matter to me if the UB is adopted or not. Until a consensus for its adoption is reached however? I must agree with Snowded, in that perhaps sanctions 'might be' required to put an end to the continuing attempts to insert it into articles, in flag or pros form. Thankfully, these disputes haven't drifted onto the Northern Ireland article. GoodDay (talk) 17:04, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Will you restore the stable version, and stop rewarding the edit-warriors? Gob Lofa (talk) 10:19, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Kindly stay away from my talk page if you are going to use loaded questions. I have done all I intend to do for now.  DDStretch  (talk) 10:22, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

It wasn't my intention to load anything; I was quoting from this, which you posted on the talk page: "Since protecting the most current version sometimes rewards edit warring by establishing a contentious revision, administrators may also revert to an old version of the page predating the edit war if such a clear point exists." What I refer to as the stable version stood for 10 years; if you don't consider it the stable version, can you explain why? Gob Lofa (talk) 11:43, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

I did say for you to stay away from my talk page. If you do not, action will be taken against you. You need to read up about loaded questions, and look at your use of the phrase "edit warriors". If you repeat any of this inflammatory language again, you will be sanctioned. I have satisfied all the requirements for protecting a page. That is all. I protected the page as it was, and this is allowed. That is the end of the matter. I do not wish to see any contributions from you again on this page, and I am instructing you to post no more messages here.  DDStretch  (talk) 13:44, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

As you've stayed away from mine after I asked, I'll extend you the same courtesy. My use of the phrase 'edit warriors' is paraphrasing your use of the phrase 'edit warring' above; if that's inflammatory, why do it? As you've protected an unstable version of the page, how can that be the end of the matter? Gob Lofa (talk) 14:47, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

That was a curious way of following an instruction. _Muffled ^Pocketed 14:55, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

And there you go. _Muffled ^Pocketed 15:09, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The above discussion is now closed. Gob-Lofa has been blocked for one month for disruptive editing. If you edit in a constructive, non-confrontational and non-disruptive manner, you should have no problems. Thank you.  DDStretch  (talk) 15:40, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Note: Gob Lofa has now been indef-blocked as a sockpuppet of User:Lapsed Pacifist, which I suppose explains the disruptive editing and POV-pushing on this and related topics. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lapsed Pacifist Miles Creagh (talk) 17:48, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Green Ensign

Green Ensign after 1800

Does this flag help with the discussion, or is it now irrelevant? It was used in the past. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 15:01, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Seriously? Mabuska ^(talk) 15:26, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

In 1701 _Muffled ^Pocketed 15:27, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

"Defaced"

A succession of edits (possibly from the same anonymous editor) seem to think there is something wrong with the term "defaced" in the opening to describe the flag. To put matters to rest, I draw people's attention to the following: explanation where it is written "Defacement is a term used in heraldry and vexillology to refer to the addition of a symbol or charge to another flag. For example, the New Zealand flag is the British Blue Ensign defaced with a Southern Cross in the fly. In the context of vexillology, the word "deface" carries no negative connotations, in contrast to general usage." I'm placing this message here so as to take better action against further attempts to alter the text. I've semi-protected the page in order to make any potential anonymous editors come here where they can read this section.  DDStretch  (talk) 17:33, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately the term defaced has that double meaning which people ignorant to heraldry and sch always take as being negative. Only thing that can be done is to notify the editors, or find some way of making it clearly in the article what the term is being used for. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:17, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

The page makes no sense.

The opening of this page as of writing is:

"The Flag of Northern Ireland, also known as the Ulster Flag[1] or Ulster Banner,[2] consists of a red cross on a white field defaced[3] with a crowned white six-pointed star with a red hand in the centre.[4][5][6] It was used by the Northern Ireland government from 1953 until the government and parliament were abolished in 1973. Since then, it has had no official status and is not used by the current Northern Ireland government nor by the British government.[7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16] However, it is still in common use; by loyalists/unionists,[17]"

If the Ulster Banner was only used until 1973 then why does the first line of the article say that it is the flag of Northern Ireland?

It's clear that someone with bias wrote this article.

Northern Ireland has no official flag apart from the Union Jack.

Alowishus1989 (talk) 19:58, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

How would you propose to rewrite the article, then? I don't think any one person wrote this article; its illogicality has probably come about from the joint, uncoordinated mess-up of successive edits to parts of it. Its controversial nature means no one has yet had the courage or stamina to sort it out, I suspect.  DDStretch  (talk) 09:26, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

There in no problem. The flag may not have official status in terms of governance however it is still the flag of NI in various other fields, mostly sporting and even more recently during an official military tattoo for the Queen and called the flag of NI during it. I note the editor raising this issue seems to have left out the very last line of the opening paragraph here for some reason, the very bit that points out its current use as the flag of NI in certain sporting fields.....Mabuska ^(talk)

There you go I had a stab at rewriting it to make it more clear. A lot of the extra stuff which only served to complicate matters if not already in the articles content will be added to it when I get access to my laptop. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:21, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Complete nonsense. What Wikipedia calls the "Ulster Banner" is the ONLY distinct flag of Northern Ireland - it was NOT only used until 1973, rather STORMONT was CLOSED in 1973 hence didn't have continued usage there, and when it was reopened a quarter of a century later the UK government simply enforced the UK flag there ( and Stormont is not the be all and end all). In the intermittent time after 1973 usage of the flag actually INCREASED to most prominence (as we have numerous sources stating above) civilly and is used in other areas of government such as by local councils and by every single other body that wants to represent Northern Ireland distinctly.

Mabuska's rewrite is a step backwards as the Union Jack is NOT the flag of Northern Ireland but of the United Kingdom a a whole and should not be in the first sentence. As we have already discussed the term "official" is ambiguous and not clear what that even means; especially given that other regional flags such as England are often described as "not official" as well, but don't keep being undermined like this article does. You really shouldn't just rewrite things just because a single ignorant person appears on the talk page. Jonto (talk) 23:19, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Actually the rewrite is far more factual than the confused mess that was there. The Union Flag is the only official legal flag for Northern Ireland. It's status was revoked in the act that abolishment Stormount... trust me I read the acts to try to prove it didn't. What it is used for is clearly outlined in the rewrite and can't be argued against. Mabuska ^(talk)

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