Talk:Flag of Australia/Archive 4

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Archive 4

Flag of Australia or Flags of Australia

I am very confuse about this page. is the page is about Flag of Australia (History, origin & design etc of current Australian Flag) or Different types of Flags of Australia? why there is a big section of "Centenary and other notable flags" i reckon this section should be in List of flags of Australia page not here. Muzi (talk) 04:37, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Many of us would agree with you. We have one editor, however, who seems to see this as a place to mention every use of the flag he can discover. Feel free to remove what you feel is garbage. HiLo48 (talk) 05:06, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

This is supposed to be about the Australian flag. Australia does have several official flags and most of these have their own articles so, although I believe there should be some mention of that, there is no need to detail those here or for the level of excessive detail and trivia that now exists within the article. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:52, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

I see there however that other articles about national flags on wikipedia mention individual specimens. As you can see these centenary and other notable flags are all either on display to the public in museums and/or have been mentioned in reliable secondary sources and journals of record and they continue to be. And really to be worthy of mention here that would need to be the case. So I'm not saying there doesn't need to be some sort of a minimum threshold for notability which doesn't necessarily mean they have to be as big as Texas in the popular culture. In relation to the Lt Col Arthur Newton flag not only was the presentation on the TV news and in the newspapers I can't seem to find any other record of a servicemen being awarded with an Australian flag by the governor general. Aussieflagfan (talk) 10:09, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Apart from the Newton centenary flag, which I admit was well referenced but probably the most borderline in the notability stakes, all the other main ones are there. The Townsville flag is presently unaccounted for but there's two plaques been dedicated to it locally now. Aussieflagfan (talk) 10:15, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

There's other options to consider for example I see there is an article on History_of_the_flags_of_the_United_States that might serve as a template for an similar entry on the history of flags of Australia generally. You could also work the specimens of military significance into the Australian flag at war section of the existing article and so to mention the 1901 Townsville flag in the history section along with the Kingsford Smith and moon flags. And then you could just leave the centenary flags where they are. The centenary flag of state is the only what you call official flag on the list with a warrant authorising its use as such being made under the Flags Act. But there are more sources in relation to the parliament house centenary flag being as it is the most notable of the two. So ideally we'd want to clarify the difference between them for our readers. Aussieflagfan (talk) 10:56, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I've said before that using American articles as a model is completely inappropriate because, if you put Australia and the US on a linear spectrum of care factor about the flag, the two countries would be at opposite ends. Surely you have noticed that even on Wikipedia. HiLo48 (talk) 21:51, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Yep its all part of a non neutral pseudo-nationalistic US style political debate introduce during John Howard era. Gnangarra 01:26, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

I'll grant you that flag idolatry is greater in Australia than America. But having said that these flags were all selected for being in museums. If that's not the sort of thing that floats your boat then there are still more people who don't mind appreciating them. Apparently. Even Gough Whitlam has an Australian moon flag in his collection. Even the ABC finds they can't ignore some of these flags: https://open.abc.net.au/explore/59701. Even them. Aussieflagfan (talk) 02:20, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

• its Flag of Australia, the new additions of is utter nonsense with origins in an external political debate of US style pseudo nationalistic origins that should be confined to the article dealing with that debate. Gnangarra 01:26, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Let's ask for a third opinion then. I say it's a pretty poor Flag of Australia article that doesn't even mention the Australian moon flag. I know of no other nations than Australia and America that have one of those. Whatever the rights and wrongs of it are there's certainly an ample amount of verifiable sources out there for these individual specimens. With respect they are something that curators have decided the museum going public in Australia wants to see. And that goes for historians trying to sell books as well. It's unrealistic to think that the way US editors present this kind of information is not going to be influential when American culture is so much as part of Australia. For example, whilst I have heard complaints about it, a lot of folks prefer to use the American term buddy to mate these days. Like I've heard it once today already. And the kids here are even starting to do Halloween now. I'm still getting over the shock of finding hollowed out plastic pumpkins for sale at woolworths in late October myself. It's not something I did in my youth. But if that's the way things are going let it be. What do you do? Keep on enacting Australian content laws and try holding back the tide for just one more day? Aussieflagfan (talk) 02:13, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Australian National Flag Day. There's another flag related thing that Australia copied directly from America. And I mean it was cut and pasted. I understand that at the meeting in Sydney where the Australian National Flag Association was formed in 1983 and where they passed a resolution in favour of a flag day on September 3rd they even had some American there advising them about it. Whether we like these developments is not the question anyway. I'm not all for the Americanisation of Australia in a lot of ways either. But I submit there is still something to learn about way US military vexillologists simply present this kind of information. Aussieflagfan (talk) 02:40, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

And for those of you on this quest for all Australian purity it's looks like things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. There's even talk about bringing in a US style pledge of allegiance as well: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/dutton-proposes-civics-pledge-for-schoolchildren-immigration-changes

Don't shoot me I'm just the messenger. Aussieflagfan (talk) 03:14, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

That's just a conservative politician saying what he thinks conservative voters want to hear. It'll never happen. HiLo48 (talk) 23:40, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Well I'm not a politician. So I'm not about to tell you just what I think you want to hear. The thing is that forever is a long time. And apparently he got a lot of good feedback about it. If it's going to be world war 3 then that's the time and place for this sort of thing. That's the whole reason it's been foreshadowed. The word on the street is that there is going to be a memo sent out to all principals in Australia with a suggested model pledge in due course. Aussieflagfan (talk) 12:48, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

There's no real in principle objection to it. The debate is who decides what the form of words should be and on what basis should it be used? The general feeling is that it is a matter for each school community to resolve. Aussieflagfan (talk) 12:56, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

One of the sources for this very article is Frank Cayley's "Flag of Stars" which was presented in a style US vexillologists would be very familiar with. And that first came out in 1969. So this creeping Americanism in Australia. This business of displaying historical flags in museums and parading them around. Of having an official Flag Day. Of replacing Australianisms such as mate with buddy as a term of endearment. Of the rising generation embracing Halloween. The thing is it's happened now. All we are doing is arguing the rights and wrongs of it around here after the event. In fact enough time has gone by so as I and most folks are at that point where we only think about the way things were before very occasionally and it's all become as natural as breathing. Aussieflagfan (talk) 23:21, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Maybe a flag enthusiast like yourself is not the pest person to see what's happening around flags fully objectively. HiLo48 (talk) 23:40, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Maybe those of us who are actually familiar with these sources can see the horse has already bolted too. Australian vexillologists have been copying the style of their US counterparts since at least the late 1960s now. The 2015 book on Australian military vexillology by General Maitland. Even that was written in the same style too mentioning all these individual battle flags in museums. And I would suggest to you that he won't be the last. For better, worse or indifferent it's inevitable people are going to see what goes on in America and wish to replicate it over here. Sure not everyone is happy about it. But they've also had a long time to get over the fact that no one is being forced to live their lives this way. Trying to erect some rabbit proof fence around Australia and enact all these local content laws for TV. The problem with that is you can't uninvent the internet which can find a way over and through. So really the battle has been lost at the level people are living out their lives mate. I see there they are even starting to build Carl's Jr restaurants all over the place. More US fast food chains. So those of you who wish to keep up this crusade for all Australian purity are quite entitled to do so. On the other hand I myself am resigned to this increasing Americanisation of Australian life that you see in a lot of areas. Realistically it seems like you can't stop it and that there was never any way to try. I'm not about to get into the spirit of Halloween anymore than you are going to attend a Flag Day ceremony this year. It was a bit shocking and jarring for me the first time I saw a HUGE stack of jack o lanterns for sale at my local woolworths supermarket. But it does no good gnashing your teeth about it and thinking you can dictate to all these youth what they can and can't with their time on the last night in October. You just have to learn to live and let live. And move on. Aussieflagfan (talk) 12:31, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

What I've been suggesting all along is that we work up an article on "Organised patriotism in Australia" where we can explore these issues in depth. I find it a truly fascinating subject. Like why do all these indices that attempt to measure how patriotic the people of certain nations are find that Australia is in the top 20? https://www.vox.com/2014/5/18/5724552/patriotism-pride-global-world And yet at the same time we apparently need a national Australia day council to centrally organise celebrations of the national holiday when in other nations like the US and France leading citizens have just got together to form committees to celebrate Independence and Bastille Day and coordinate events locally entirely of their own initiative? Academics have come up with various theories about why Australians are so laid back about it. So the sources to make a little ripper of an article are there. Aussieflagfan (talk) 13:37, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

According that world values survey Australians are actually more proud of their nation than Americans are of theirs. How about that? Aussieflagfan (talk) 13:47, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

You're talking to yourself again. Please, please, please, get out and look at some other, preferably mainstream articles. See how good, experienced editors behave on Talk pages. You are using this like a forum, and it's not. HiLo48 (talk) 23:15, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

People come here and leave messages for me. I leave messages for them. I know who they are. They know who I am. The difference is I'm giving you verifiable sources full of facts and figures that tend to show what you are saying is not quite right. And all you guys are giving me is solemn affirmations to the contrary. It's not just the world values survey. All surveys of that nature show Australia is in the top 20. On those figures more Australians are proud of their nation than Americans are of theirs. But I'll grant you Americans are more loud and boisterous about their love of country. By far. That's why we should either create an article on Organised patriotism in Australia or expand the one on Australian patriotism so we can have a nice little field day in relation to this subject. Aussieflagfan (talk) 03:12, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

If you have this picture that 90 per cent of Australian aren't proud of their country I'm sorry to be the person to tell you that actually it's completely the other way around. The 1960s and 70s and all those anti Vietnam war era protests. Those days have a golden glow to them now. Some people need to start living in the year 2018. Aussieflagfan (talk) 03:22, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a forum. And I note that you have again failed to take the advice I gave three posts above. Just chose to stay in the narrow world of flag waving. Please look wider. HiLo48 (talk) 04:48, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Third opinion

Response to third opinion request:

I removed this entry because the dispute is between more than two editors. Consider opening a thread at WP:DRN. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 20:25, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Australian flag at war section

Who says we reinstate this section? I've seen reports recently that the Australian Flag Society has even discovered the Tarakan flag <https://www.facebook.com/Australian.Flag.Society/photos/a.210701592278728/2224884557527078>. There's more and more of this sort of thing coming to light all the time.

Aussieflagfan (talk) 11:55, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry to be the bearer of such somehow bad news all the time for you fellas.

Aussieflagfan (talk) 12:20, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

I've re-removed this trivia - there's clear consensus in the discussion above to not have material listing individual copies of the Australian flag. As requested previously, please cease all editing relating to the Australian Flag Society given that you have some kind of conflict of interest with the organisation. Nick-D (talk) 05:04, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

There's no conflict of interest. In fact I would ask instead that you stop editing the Australian Flag Society article except to remove the notability tag. Because you might like to know that it appears as if they are part of Anzac folklore now with their national treasure hunting feats. And that's a fact. What we need to do is build a consensus about what the next step in the conflict resolution process over this article should be. We've had outside editors look at a substantial transcript of this material on another page and they said it was OK. We got rid of all the partisan sources. These sources are now mainly all contemporaneous war correspondence and links to the Australian War Memorial website. It's no good thinking all this is never going to come out in the highly unlikely event there is ever a national flag poll held in our day if that is all you are worried about. Aussieflagfan (talk) 11:18, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Request for comment

The question is should the former sections entitled Australian flag at war and Centenary and other notable flags be featured on the flag of Australia page or elsewhere?

The "Australian flag at war" and "Centenary and other notable flags" sections have been removed ostensibly on the grounds that the material is POV and trivial. But I see that the sources were all non partisan and verifiable and the presentation was encyclopedic. The only what you might call hyperbole comes from direct quotes. And how trivial could some of this content be given the large number of references that were supplied? For example just look at the entry for the "parliament house centenary flag" for one. Some of these national treasures such as the "Australian moon flag" are even notable enough to warrant a separate article of their own really. Aussieflagfan (talk) 11:23, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

No they are not needed - as far as I can see they have no relevance to an artice on the Flag of Australia, the article is about flags used to represent Australia, history and design. The article is not about each time a flag was raised for whatever reason other than the first time the design was used which is already covered in the rest of the article. If an individual flag is that noteworthy it would have an article of its own. MilborneOne (talk) 14:12, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree with MilborneOne. We don't need the article on the Australian flag to be a random collection of copies of the flag and times the flag was flown, including substantial amounts of such material cited to photographs and ancient news stories (which, obviously, can't establish that these particular copies of the flag or incidents are considered to have had lasting significance). The Australian flag is, obviously, a very common national symbol of which vast numbers have been produced which has been very extensively used since it was adopted. I have no idea why this is a RfC given it's been extensively discussed above previously. This is basically a WP:POINT issue from Aussieflagfan. Nick-D (talk) 23:45, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

No inclusion please. These individual instances are simply not notable. HiLo48 (talk) 03:44, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

However let's also consider the objection that has been expressed that Australia is not a nation where flag idolatry is the same factor it is in America. The thing is that a lot of these flags are still on display in museums anyway. There seems to be many articles on individual US flag specimens. But rather than going any further down that path by creating a separate article on the moon flag such as the one for the Bowman Flag. Let's just list them all on the Flag of Australia article instead. And if as appears to be happening interest in this subject only continues to build (https://www.facebook.com/Australian.Flag.Society/photos/a.210701592278728/2224884557527078) we might need to come back to this thread one day. But for now this seems to me to be the most sensible approach to me. I want Wikipedia to be the go to source about this subject. And not one or another partisan websites where you only get fed propaganda and told only half the story instead. Aussieflagfan (talk) 05:39, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

"And if as appears to be happening interest in this subject only continues to build..." Are you sure you're not experiencing Selection bias? HiLo48 (talk) 06:32, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

@Aussieflagfan: as per the instructions at WP:RFCST, please rewrite the opening statement to be a neutral presentation of the question at hand. Rosguill (talk) 19:30, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

No I'll tell you exactly why. Didn't I see a report of the incoming prime minister of Australia giving flag pins to each of his ministers? <https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/scott-morrison-pins-his-hopes-on-the-flag/news-story/9d7e80261954c0d22bb43157d9044300>? Even Australia's own leader is clearly hoping that this form of national flag idolatry you normally only associate with US presidents like Donald Trump will eventually catch on in Australia. Aussieflagfan (talk) 06:58, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

They've sure got Scott Morrison in the right place. Being the most patriotic man in the country can get you everywhere in Australia. Aussieflagfan (talk) 10:18, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

The politics of national symbols being what they are you still need to have comprehensive articles on the Australian national flag and red ensign otherwise wikipedia loses credibility with both republicans and monarchists alike. Aussieflagfan (talk) 05:42, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

How's that. Aussieflagfan (talk) 05:24, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

I think you know perfectly well what I mean. You'll only end up with blokes trying to make political capital out of wikipedia. You mark my words. Aussieflagfan (talk) 07:03, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Before you think I'm being overly critical the article is 100% better than it used to be. You can expect dissatisfaction from professional historians and monarchist lobby groups in particular to drop off considerably. Aussieflagfan (talk) 09:11, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

It's not really much of an improvement. Per the instructions at WP:RFCST, the opening should be brief and neutral. It is neither. Something better would be along the lines of "Should the 'Australian flag at war' and 'Centenary and other notable flags' sections that were recently removed be restored?" You can argue your POV separately. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:40, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

What about turning the Flags of the Australian Defence Force article into the "Flags of the Anzac tradition" instead? That's where you could go into everything and anything to do with Australian military vexillology. Just create some sort of hyperlink to that article in the present article instead. And as long as there's limited partisan sources that should continue to be just fine for now. Aussieflagfan (talk) 08:47, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

If that's too imprecise and/or lyrical we could also go with "Flags of the Australian and colonial military forces". It's going to be a bonanza. Aussieflagfan (talk) 08:59, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Your proposal to move that article to that title was rejected previously on a discussion on its talk page. There is also not support there for the article to include the kind of content you're wanting to post. If you want to post this kind of stuff online, start your own website. Nick-D (talk) 10:39, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

User:Aussieflagfan, your suggestion of an article titled "Flags of the Anzac tradition", for the purpose you propose, seems to ignore the NZ in ANZAC. HiLo48 (talk) 23:29, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

(Summoned by bot) Add to other existing articles. The information recently cut seems reasonably sourced and encyclopedic, but is too detailed for this article. A possible compromise that keeps the information in the encyclopedia would be to put text from the erstwhile "Australian flag at war" section into Flags of the Australian Defence Force and put the "other notable flags" text cut from the "Centenary flags" section into List of Australian flags. DonFB (talk) 17:09, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

• Fine with inclusion, rm quote (Summoned by bot) reaidng through it, I don't see a hgue issue. ^Thanks, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 15:31, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

• Add to other articles (Summoned by bot) – The crux of the matter, imho, was raised July 13 by User:muzi, in section #Flag of Australia or Flags of Australia above. Per WP:Article titles, the title of an article indicates what the article is about and distinguishes it from other articles. In addition, per WP:PRECISION, the absence of a plural in the title precisely indicates that this is about "[The] Flag" of Australia, i.e., one flag. I have no particular opposition to having an article that is about more than one flag, but in that case, it would probably have a plural in the title, or by other means indicate that the topic was broad enough to include other flags. So long as this article is entitled "Flag of Australia", other topics should not be shoehorned into it. That said, there's nothing wrong with including links to other flags in the "See also" section, or possibly having a brief "Other flags" section with hyperlinked mentions without going into much detail about other flags. In my view, the current section "Other Australian flags" should be reduced to a paragraph, and the "Centenary flags" section eliminated, with the former content summarized in one sentence under the "Other" section. Mathglot (talk) 05:28, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Burial flags

I've seen umpteen photographs of fallen soliders in world war one whose coffins were drpaed in an Australian flag. And yet the article reads "As the Union Flag was recognised as the National flag, it was considered disloyal to fly either ensign without the Union flag alongside, and it was the Union Flag that covered the coffins of Australia's war dead."

My proposed revision is "and it was the Union Jack that most often covered the coffins of Australia's war dead.

Aussieflagfan (talk) 01:11, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Flag of the United States which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 22:45, 11 June 2020 (UTC)