Talk:Flèche (fencing)

{{dyktalk|6 April|2006|entry=...that the flèche is an aggressive fencing attack generally used with the foil and épée weapons, and is actually illegal to use with the sabre under USFA rules

Wrong idea of what a fleche is

I think you have the idea of a flèche (fencing) wrong. You say that the idea is "running as quickly as possible, allowing the attacker to close a greater amount of distance than with a standard attack". That is absolutely wrong. You should never use a fleche to close distance much greater than that of a lunge. You make it sound like the idea is to charge down the length of the piste. Begineers always make this mistake.

You should be hitting your oponent at the same point as your back foot has crossed over and hit the ground - well before you start to do any kind of running. You only run because you as you past them you don't want to give them time to hit you on your back.

The source you reference pretty much explains this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.9.137.165 (talk • contribs) .

Then thank you for fixing the article. However, most training I've ever done with the fleche involves taking three steps (when doing it in footwork practices). Three steps is far more distance than you ever close with a lunge. Staxringold 15:32, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You take 3 steps because it's a footwork practice. As anon said, in reality, flèche is never used to cover distance. You shouldn't be any further than "lunge distance" from your opponent when you start the flèche. Of course, you could arrive there by 3 forward steps, but that's irrelevant - that's not part of the flèche. --Zoz (t) 18:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In fact the moment your back foot hits the ground after the big "swing forward" you Finish your attack, and if you don't hit then you lose all Right Of Way.

EX: Fencer A fleches from 3 tempos away and thus takes about two "running steps" (that is crossing forward steps) at Fencer B before hitting him. Assuming Fencer A does not hit until after taking at least one "running step" if Fencer B hits Fencer A at all during the running steps the correct call would be Attack in Preparation from Fencer B- point awarded to Fencer B. BlackJeebus 05:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was doing this 20 odd years ago so the rules may have been changed, but there is/was a sabre version of the fleche and it was one of the hallmarks of the sabre. In a normal stance the weight should be transfered to the front foot, and as you appear to be moving forward normally, the front leg should drive you forward, at the same time you lean so far forward that your centre of gravity is forward of your centre of stability, the combination of your front leg and the momentum from your falling (because thats basically what it is giving you the attack. As in the article the move should be done at a distance so that if you miss you will be carried pass and clear of your opponent so that they cannot hit you legally. The rear leg doesn't need to cross the front to stop you falling flat on your face, but you used to do a fast shuffling thing as you brake and lean back, which is easier to do then describe. KTo288 (talk) 09:52, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above is largely correct, but it the fleche was indeed removed from sabre in the intervening 20 years.Jsavit (talk) 18:33, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have the clear impression that flèche is still permissible in sabre as a very fast counter-attack (used when you are moving back and have no right-of-way) it does not involve running or foot cross over, but the quick lean forward on the front leg displacing your centre of gravity as KTo288 explained. Abav (talk) 13:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Need to clarify why flèche is not allowed

I was taught sabre by Olympic winner, Selberg; he emphasized what KTo288 said above, "so that if you miss you will be carried pass and clear of your opponent so that they cannot hit you".

Other aspects to the fleche are that it is an all-out do-or-die move, requiring great energy. I.e., tactically, you should be relatively sure that it's going to work.

I have not fenced since the changes to the rules forbidding the flèche, and I was hoping the Wikipedia article would clarify. Because there were accidents? As an equalizer, because it gives tall people a great advantage?

(Parenthetically, my recollection is that the article statement about the flèche travelling no additional distance is incorrect. That, in fact, it's precisely this additional distance which makes the flèche a threat: your opponant always has a hint of worry you'll do something dramatic, and keeps more distance than they would otherwise.) 24.130.145.225 (talk) 11:48, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with the statement regarding the fleche's tactical deployment

I'm not sure of the statement about timing versus distance. When I used to fence, I used the fleche to crucify folks who let down their guard after retreating beyond advance-lunge distance, and my use of the fleche was always to cover that larger distance in a single tempo, touching the opponent when my left foot hit the deck (I'm right-handed), with my body nearly horizontal when I make the touch. At a lesser distance where suddenness is needed, the balestra suffices. August 1st, 2012