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Talk:First Serbian Uprising/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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There is nothing about the first capital of modern Serbia, Kragujevac. Nothing about the first constitution that was founded in Kragujevac, and all other "first" things in Serbia that were founded in Kragujevac (The First Gymnasium, The First University "Licej", The First Parliament, The First Library...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.246.195 (talk) 20:31, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Leader

Was Karadjordje chosen the leader on February 2nd or 14th in 1804 ? The page on First Serbian Uprising says it's February 14th. The page on Karadjordje says February 2nd. Can someone confirm the date, please ? -- PFHLai 17:17, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)

That would probably be the same day, just different dates according to Julian and Gregorian calenders. If I'm right, the 14th would be the correct date to use. Zocky 04:57, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

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People

Should Sima Milutinović Sarajlija (a fighter and a scribe in the Praviteljstvujušči Sovjet during the Uprising) and Dositej Obradović (the first minister of education in revolutionary Serbia) be mentioned in the People section (considering the fact that Vuk Karadžić is mentioned)? Ostalocutanje (talk) 12:17, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Belligerents

There is a serious problem with the Belligerents list in that the Serbs and the Ottoman Empire were initially on the same side against the Dahija. Only when the Dahija had been defeated did relations between the two begin to break down and up till then the Serbs were no so much rebels as Ottoman loyalists.Dejvid (talk) 21:33, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Starting date

The starting date of the First Serbian Uprising is problematic. The Uprising against the Dahije broke out in February, the Dahije being defeated by 25 July. It was only after this when the Sultan turned on the Serbs. The Serbs and the Ottomans negotiated for a year, when in August 1805 Hafuz Pasha was dispatched to destroy them. The Serbs won, and then captured several towns from the hands of the Ottomans. Serbian historiography includes the uprising against the Dahije as the beginning or prelude to the uprising. Is there any objection of removing the Dahije from the infobox (now present at the Uprising against the Dahije), as they were not belligerents in the uprising against the Ottomans?--Zoupan 18:57, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I disagree. Its not only Serbian historiography which treats the uprising against the Dahije as integal part of the First Srbian Uprising. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:44, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Rumelian

Exactly what is Rumelian in the sidebox? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 13:43, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:53, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

1863?

why is the "skull tower" picture in this article, not existing until decades after the event? HammerFilmFan (talk) 09:48, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

@HammerFilmFan The caption was wrong, that's when the drawing was made not when the Skull Tower was built. Aeengath (talk) 11:02, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

The first Christian population in Ottoman history to have risen up against the Sultan.

According to the article "The Serbs were the first Christian population in Ottoman history to have risen up against the Sultan, their uprising ultimately became a symbol of the nation-building process in the Balkans, inspiring unrest among neighboring Balkan peoples." citing Glenny, M. (2012). The Balkans: Nationalism, War, and the Great Powers, 1804-2011. Penguin Publishing Group. ISBN 978-1-101-61099-2. This comment does not take into consideration the Orlov Uprising of the Greeks in 1770. The Orlov revolt (Greek: Ορλωφικά, Ορλοφικά, Ορλώφεια, lit. 'Orlov events') was a Greek uprising that broke out in 1770. It was centered in the Peloponnese, southern Greece as well as in parts of Central Greece, Thessaly and on Crete. The revolt broke out at February 1770 following the arrival of Russian Admiral Alexei Orlov, commander of the Imperial Russian Navy during the Russo-Turkish War (1768–1774), at the Mani Peninsula. It became a major precursor to the Greek War of Independence (which erupted in 1821). This is a out of context comment as the reference of Glenny extents his research timeline from 1804-2011 to the whole history of Ottoman Empire. I recommend to change the comment to mention that "The Serbs were the first Christian population in the 19th century to have risen up against the Sultan." or that "The Serbs were the second Christian population in Ottoman history to have risen up against the Sultan, after the Greek Uprising of 1770. Ianbak (talk) 12:35, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Ianbak, There were many revolts against the Ottomans in Greece here and in Serbia here even before the Orlov revolt; what makes the Serbian uprising the first of its kind is that it evolved into a war a independence. Glenny is not the only one to reach this conclusion "in 1804, Serbs organized a rebellion (the First Serbian Uprising), becoming the first of the Balkan peoples to begin a drive for real independence against the Turks"[1] also "The Greeks achieved the first independent Balkan nation-state, but the first triumphal rebellion against Ottoman rule occurred among the Serbs."[2] and "This was the first national uprising against the Ottomans among the peoples of Southeast Europe followed by the Greek Revolution"[3] Best, Aeengath (talk) 20:32, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
Hello @Aeengath. From your reply I assume that you agree that the statement is wrong since, as you very well cite, there were other rebellions before the First Serbian Uprising. Glenny's statement is based on the concept that the First Serbian Uprising was triumphal, meaning that it created a short lived independent state. If we want to state the facts then this was "The first Christian population in Ottoman history to have risen up against the Sultan and succeded in creating a short lived independent state.". I think in general, and not as a Greek, Glenny's statement is diminutive towards other christian population that have risen against the Ottomans but without reaching any kind of independence. Thank you for your time and our discussion. I hope we can better state the facts without any bias for or against other nations. Ianbak (talk) 11:48, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
@Ianbak I agree, updating the lead, thank you Aeengath (talk) 16:06, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Tomić, S. (2022). The Hidden History of New Women in Serbian Culture: Toward a New History of Literature. Lexington Books. p. 3. ISBN 978-1-7936-3199-2. Retrieved 2023-02-14.
  2. ^ Biondich, M. (2011). The Balkans: Revolution, War, and Political Violence Since 1878. Zones of Violence. OUP Oxford. p. 20. ISBN 978-0-19-929905-8. Retrieved 2023-02-14.
  3. ^ Trbovich, A.S. (2008). A Legal Geography of Yugoslavia's Disintegration. Online access with purchase: University Press scholarship online (Oxford scholarship online).: Law module. Oxford University Press, USA. p. 67. ISBN 978-0-19-533343-5. Retrieved 2023-02-14.
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