Talk:Finnish invasion of East Karelia (1941)

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Untitled

poorly written —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.90.233.67 (talk • contribs)

Soviet 3rd Division

Could some one help with this? I know the unit is not the Soviet 3rd Division but instead a militia division - apparently of Leningrad region. So how would that be best represented in English? - Wanderer602 (talk) 11:23, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 June 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved to Finnish invasion of East Karelia (1941). See general agreement to alter "conquest" to "invasion"; however, there appears to be no consensus in regard to whether or not to drop the date qualifier. Have a Great Day and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover) Paine Ellsworth ^put'r there 23:59, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Finnish conquest of East Karelia (1941) → Finnish invasion of East Karelia – Per WP:NPOV & WP:COMMONNAME; invasions and occupations are not described as "conquests" on en.wiki; compare with Invasion of Poland. Also see Gbooks sources: Searching for a 'Principle of Humanity' in International Humanitarian Law & Mannerheim: The Finnish Years. Compare with: ...what the military referred to as conquest of east Karelia provided an ideal opportunty... & ...views of those who argued for the conquest of east Karelia..., as describing Finnish POV. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:14, 16 June 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 07:09, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Finish occupation of East Karelia. This land has changed political hands multiple times since the 17th century, so we should be more specific than "Invasion/occupation/conquest of East Karelia", and being nationally specific is more helpful to readers than giving a date (readers are more likely to be looking for the date than to already be in possession of that detail). Neither "conquest" nor "invasion" seem really appropriate. The Spanish Conquest of Latin America was a conquest – the Spanish took over and largely imposed their own culture for centuries, but nothing like that happened in Karelia, which was already mostly culturally Finnish; the conquest, to the extent there was one, was by Russia, which instituted a culturally repressive "Sovietification" programme, only recently starting to wear off a little. On the other hand, an invasion generally means a temporary tactical/strategic military move, not a permanent settlement plan. While the [governmentally versus culturally] Finnish re-taking of East Karelia ultimately did not turn out to be long-term, it was intended to be. Occupation is probably the best word here. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 10:39, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- But this is about the military operation that resulted in the occupation of East Karelia. Please see Finnish military administration in Eastern Karelia for the occupation. As for invasion vs. conquest, seems irrelevant to me. Although the word invasion seems to usually refer to invasions of whole countries or first-time incursions like amphibious landings, of which this wasn't either. But I'm not a linguistic expert. PS. it seems it's me who has redirected "Finnish occupation of East Karelia" to this article in October 2007.[1] --Pudeo (talk) 12:26, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Since "east Karelia" is not a country, I added "Finnish invasion..." to be more specific. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:45, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support dropping the superfluous "1941". Oppose "occupation". Note the folllowing articles with similar issues and their differing terminology:
- East Karelia (nb "East")
- Finnish military administration in Eastern Karelia (nb "Eastern" with capped E)
- Finnish reconquest of Ladoga Karelia (1941) (why is it a re-conquest?; date is superfluous)
- Finnish reconquest of the Karelian Isthmus (1941) (why is it a re-conquest?; date is superfluous)

— AjaxSmack 15:38, 29 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Those probably are "re-conquests" because the areas were ceded to the Soviet Union just a year earlier in the Moscow Peace Treaty. They were considered a legitimate re-conquest by all Finnish political parties, but advancing past the 1939 borders (to East Karelia, what this article is about) was a controversial decision. It is worth noting that most of the names of these articles are somewhat slanted towards the Finnish POV (except the Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive) because most English-language sources approach the topic from that angle too, and for the Soviets it was just one more front, but for Finland it it was everything. In Russian or Soviet historiography the Finnish offensive in 1941 was rather irrelevant. It isn't what the Great Patriotic War is remembered for. --Pudeo (talk) 19:53, 29 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That would make it a recovery, not a reconquest. The area became a part of Finland way back in 1812, and not as a result of a conquest. Then again, "reconquest" is often used to mean "recovery by conquest" (e.g. Reconquista). — AjaxSmack 20:28, 29 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

After a perusal of print sources mainly via Google Books, I support a move to Finnish invasion of East Karelia. Sources are nearly evenly split on East/Eastern but most use a capital E (as do most of the nominator's sources). "Eastern" tends to be used more in vague descriptions of "the eastern parts of Karelia", whereas "East" tends to be used more for the specific area invaded and annexed in WWII. "East" also has the advantage of matching the current title of the East Karelia article. I agree with the nominator that "conquest" is rarely used in Wikipedia titles; "invasion" is far more common (nb entries at Category:World War II invasions). — AjaxSmack 20:28, 1 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This makes sense; I updated the request to "East Karelia". K.e.coffman (talk) 00:57, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Finnish invasion of East Karelia (1941). I believe the disambiguation is needed due to the Finnish 1919 Aunus expedition into East Karelia. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:05, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Peacemaker. Also the Viena expedition. Just change one word in the current title. Srnec (talk) 01:25, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.