Talk:Finnish influences on Tolkien

Finnish influences on Tolkien has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: September 2, 2023. (Reviewed version).

Middle-earth Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle-earth, which aims to build an encyclopedic guide to J. R. R. Tolkien, his legendarium, and related topics. Please visit the project talk page for suggestions and ideas on how you can improve this and other articles.Middle-earthWikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earthTemplate:WikiProject Middle-earthTolkien articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Note: Though it states in the Guide to writing better articles that generally fictional articles should be written in present tense, all Tolkien legendarium-related articles that cover in-universe material before the current action must be written in past tense. Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards for more information about this and other article standards.

Finland Low‑importance

	Finland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Finland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Finland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FinlandWikipedia:WikiProject FinlandTemplate:WikiProject FinlandFinland articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

GA Review

Passed. — Golden ^talk 19:21, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Finnish influences on Tolkien/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Golden (talk · contribs) 21:35, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be reviewing this article. — Golden ^talk 21:35, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks. I'm used to working with reviewers and will respond promptly to any comments or concerns you may have. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:02, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

which he specially liked - Do you mean "especially liked" instead of "specially"? "Specially" implies a special reason.
- I suspect this is a British English thing, but I've changed it for you.
  - English is not my native language, so I may be mistaken about this. If you believe that "specially" is the correct word to use, then please feel free to use it. I just haven't seen it used in this context before. — Golden ^talk
The central character - It would be better to clarify this as "The central character of the Kalevala".
- Added.

Finnish language

"Intoxication" may not be the most suitable word here. Perhaps "Interest in the Language" would be a better choice.
- I guess I see why you might think that, but it directly reflects Tolkien's own phrase, quoted and cited in the section.
  - Fair. — Golden ^talk
Tolkien much admired Finnish - This reads a bit awkward. It could be rephrased as: "Tolkien admired the Finnish language very much"
- Removed, see below.
Wikilink Elvish languages.
- Done.
He began in around 1910–1911 - Began what?
- Edited.
Wikilink Germanic languages.
- Done.
He was then already familiar with Latin, Greek, Spanish, and several ancient Germanic languages, such as Gothic, Old Norse, and Old English. He had invented several cryptographic codes, and two or three constructed languages. - How do these sentences relate to the topic of this article?
- I guess it's a bit indirect; removed.
Give a brief description to Kalevala at its first mention (e.g., "Finnish mythology of the Kalevala, a 19th-century work of epic poetry compiled by Elias Lönnrot").
- Added.
You've wikilinked Finnish language again.
- Removed.
then became acquainted with Finnish - We've already discussed Tolkien's love for Finnish earlier in this section. Now, we're discussing how he first became acquainted with it. It might be more logical to mention this earlier to maintain the chronology of events.
- Reordered, and removed one of the near-duplicate statements.
his High-elven language - What is an "High-elven language"?
- Said "Quenya".
Given that half of the "Intoxication with Language" section pertains to Quenya, it might be more appropriate to merge the sections. It would be even better to eliminate the subsections altogether.
- Well, it pertains to Finnish primarily (even more so if we ditch all mention of the other natural languages! I guess the point I was trying to make is that he was actually a very keen linguist ("with language") even before he came across Finnish. I'll think about saying something like that in the text.
  - Fair. — Golden ^talk
Briefly introduce Petri Tikka.
- Glossed.
What is Arda Philology?
- Glossed.
these are of multiple kinds - What does this mean?
- Good catch. Reworded.
Briefly introduce Anne C. Petty.
- Glossed.

Kalevala

It would be better to put "fascinated" in quotes to create something like this: "Tolkien was "greatly affected" and "fascinated" by".
- Done.
You're missing a comma after national epic Kalevala.
- Punctuated.
If the Kalevala is introduced in the preceding section as per my suggestions, you should remove its description here to prevent repetition.
- Done.
Taking into account the previous points, I propose rewriting the first sentence as follows: "Tolkien was "greatly affected" and "fascinated" by the tales in Kalevala and especially the tale of Kullervo, and used it as influence on the Middle-earth."
- Edited.
getting him started - started what?
- His legendarium. Said so, and linked.
Briefly introduce Kirby.
- Done.
He tried to rework the story of Kullervo into a story of his own, starting in 1914. It was a project he never finished, but similarities to the story can still be seen in the tale of Túrin Turambar. - I would rewrite this as "He started reworking the story of Kullervo into a story of his own in 1914, but never finished it. However, similarities to the story can still be seen in the tale of Túrin Turambar."
- Done.
commit incest with their sister who on finding out kills herself by leaping into water. -> "commit incest with their sisters, who, upon finding out, kill themselves by leaping into water."
- Reworded.
Both heroes later -> "Later, both heroes" to avoid two consecutive sentences starting with "Both".
- Reworded the one above.
after asking their sword if it will slay them, which it confirms. -> "after asking their swords if they will slay them, which the swords confirm".
- Reworded.
He was still - It would be a good idea to specify Tolkien (i.e., "Tolkien was still") in this context, as we have discussed several individuals before this.
- Done.
He was still strongly attracted by the Kalevala in 1964 - Why 1964 specifically? Did something happen on this year?
- Reworded; the point is that we have it as a datum that this was still true in '64.
The Tolkien scholar Verlyn Flieger, publishing Tolkien's unfinished short story, The Story of Kullervo and the two drafts of his essay "On the Kalevala", -> "The Tolkien scholar Verlyn Flieger, who published the writer's unfinished short story, The story of Kullervo and the two drafts of his essay "On the Kalevala","
- No, it means "in the act of publishing it".
"this story" doesn't need quotes.
- Removed.
It would be helpful to provide an explanation of the similarities between the 1914 poem and the closing scene of Kalevala. Perhaps you could include a quotation from the 1914 poem that demonstrates its resemblance to the excerpt from Kalevala that you have cited.
- Added a description. You can read the poem at Tolkien Gateway; I don't find it specially quotable, but if you think any particular small bit of it worth the trouble, we can display it alongside the 3 lines of the Kalevala in the article.
Wikilink and briefly introduce Väinämöinen at its first mention.
- Done.
Wikilink Silmarils and briefly explain what they are.
- Done.
Ditto for One Ring.
- Done.
Remove introduction for Väinämöinen here since you will be adding it earlier.
- Done.
Wikilink and briefly introduce Gandalf.
- Done.
Briefly introduce Tom Bombadil and, if possible, explain what the similarities between him and Väinämöinen are.
- Done.
Briefly introduce Matthew R. Bardowell.
- Done.
Tolkien is quoted as saying in Humphrey Carpenter's biography that a story "grows like a seed in the dark out of the leaf-mold of the mind: out of all that has been seen or thought or read, that has long ago been forgotten, descending into the deeps. No doubt there is much selection, as with a gardener: what one throws on one’s personal compost-heap". - How do these sentences relate to the topic of this article?
- Edited the description that follows. The point is that the influence is deep, not superficial.
Briefly introduce Christopher Tolkien.
- Done.
"Multiple matches, woven into the fabric" - This section title is not effective and does not accurately reflect its contents.
- Reworded.

References

It is important to include specific page numbers in your references. Many of the secondary sources do not cite specific pages, making it difficult to verify the information.
- Every book has a page reference; it is customary when citing academic papers simply to give each article's page range or article number; while for the web article, no page number exists.
  - Fair enough. In my articles, I usually include these journal articles in a separate "Sources" section and cite them using the sfn template along with specific page numbers. — Golden ^talk
There is an inconsistency in the citation formats used for sourcing, with both sfn and ref formats being employed. I suggest using a single format to maintain consistency.
- This is outwith the GA criteria. I've moved all but Letters inline for you; since all the letters are primary, and form all but one of the refs there, that's a pretty tidy result.
  - Looks good. — Golden ^talk
Spot-checked references #2a, 3b, 7b, 7d, 9, 14b.
- No issues found while spot-checking.
  - Noted.

Comments v2

Move description for Quenya to the first mention.
- Moved.
the Finnish national epic - this is unnecessary since you've already introduced Kalevala earlier.
- Gone.
Wikilink The Lord of the Rings at its first mention.
- Done.

General comments

Earwig's detector gives an ~62% but most of it is quotes, so I don't think there's an issue.
- Noted.
The only image in the article is relevant and free.
- Noted.
The article is interesting and provides sufficient information about the subject. However, it needs significant work to be comprehensible to the average reader. In addition to my previous suggestions, I recommend that you read the article several times and consider how you can improve its flow, given your extensive knowledge of the subject. I look forward to seeing your revisions. — Golden ^talk 15:02, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I've gone over it all again, and made some adjustments. I hope that, all round, you find it easier now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:36, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Chiswick Chap: Thank you! My concerns have mostly been addressed. I have made some minor copyediting changes, which you may revert if you do not prefer them. Upon a second reading of the article, I have added three new points above. Once those are addressed, I will be happy to pass. — Golden ^talk 19:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    - Copyedits are all fine; I see them as matters of taste but mine's just one opinion. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:06, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Great. Happy to pass. Congratulations! — Golden ^talk 19:20, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.