Talk:Fingerstyle guitar

Electric fingerstyle

This section should be deleted. It appears to be an attempt at listing Knopfler as a fingerstyle player. Ry Cooder is worthy of mention as a fingerstyle player, however. The solid body electric guitar was the instrument of choice for Ted Greene & Ed Bickert (Telecasters), Lenny Breau (various custom made). Differentiation based on electric or acoustic, solid body or hollow, nylon string or steel (Lenny played both) has more to do with sound, and less with the style of music being performed. - Albert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.211.50.96 (talk) 16:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand the significance of the comment about Knopfler. He plays fingerstyle, so why not mention him? Other people do why not mention them?1Z (talk) 08:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really understand what is being said here either. I do know that some editors do no consider electric players as fingerstyle, because they see it as a description of a sound and not a technique. Personally I find it odd that the article does not mention him (and Buckingham), he is almost exclusively a fingerstyle player and has not just played electric, but also acoustic guitars in his long career. I would be happy with a short and well referenced section on rock players that included him.--Sabrebd (talk) 08:50, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I checked out Knopfler on youtube (with Chet). He _does_ play fingerstyle and should be included (sorry). My point is: you can play fingerstyle on _any_ kind of guitar. It's confusing to list players by the type of guitar they play, assuming that everyone knows what kind of music they're famous for. Knopfler is already listed, anyway. Perhaps players should be categorized by the _style_ of music they play, by the type or types of guitar, by their picking technique. -Albert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.211.99.244 (talk) 19:14, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is a real issue about classifying by type of guitar, for the reasons mentioned: the same technique can be employed on more than one guitar type. However the alternatives also have problem: classifying by technique runs into the problem that genres like jazz don't remotely have a fixed technique. 1Z (talk)

Nice presentation of opinions. Can anyone find some citations for sections Bossa Nova, New Age Approach, and Funky Approaches? 69.211.50.96 (talk) 19:10, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Piedmont Guitar

There is a separate article for "Piedmont Guitar." I'm an amateur at this stuff, but I think Peidmont is a related style, and probably needs to be merged, cross-referenced, or the relation should be explicated by sopmeone who knows something more than I do. 76.229.204.47 (talk) 00:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Consolidation now complete

[NOTE: This posting is intentionally out of chronology, due to its timeliness. This page will be properly archived soon.]

We've discussed this for a year now, posted notices and done everything necessary to build a concensus on the matter of which is the dominant term: "fingerstyle" or "fingerpicking". Since the consensus was overwhelmingly for the former, the articles are now consolidated. "Fingerpicking" redirects to here, as does "Fingerstyle".

I apologize for not doing this sooner, but I've been on something of a wikibreak. I'm jumping in here to smooth out an well-meaning (and much appreciated) attempt to consolidate, but one which was somehow moving against the consensus.

Please note that I've also incorporated comments from the old "fingerpicking" discussion page into this one, as this should be a full-fledged merger.

"American fingerstyle guitar" now "Fingerstyle guitar"

I have renamed this page. The exchange above proved to me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that we need to expand the scope of this article. There is a genre called "fingerstyle," and it's international. Musicians like Tommy Emmanuel are exemplary of this form. I don't mind incorporating "American fingerstyle" as a subset of the greater genre, but let's do this right.

First, let me quickly state the case for the page move:

I get 1,500,000 Google hits for "fingerstyle", and only 3,440 for "American fingerstyle".
There is a magazine called "Fingerstyle Guitar" [1]. There is no publication called "American Fingerstyle Guitar".
In a search of the online archive of Acoustic Guitar magazine, the largest-circulation publication of its kind, I get 2,400 references to "fingerstyle", and 21 for "American fingerstyle".

As a dedicated fingerstyle guitar player myself, I hope we can make this a comprehensive overview of the discipline. Please, pitch in and help.

There also seems to be significant confusion between "fingerstyle" and "fingerpicking". Some use the terms synonymously, others see the latter as perhaps closer to how we describe "American fingerstyle" right now. Can anyone find a definitive distinction between the two? --Pleather 19:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just to answer that last little item, "fingerstyle" and "fingerpicking" are exactly synonymous, so no need to parse or dig for deeper meaning here. I've always thought that "fingerstyle" was the less exact term, the one more likely to be used, say, by clueless journalists writing about a subject they have little knowledge of, so my preference is "fingerpicking". (Besides, you can then say "it's fingerpickin' good!") +ILike2BeAnonymous 20:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding American fingerstyle vs. fingerstyle: of course American fingerpicking is a subset of fingerpicking. One would have to be a horrendously Americo-centric idiot to believe otherwise; certainly clever and creative people outside the shores of the U.S. have figured out how to make complex, melodious music on six strings with fingers. However, it is a distinct style, or better put, is sui generis and deserves its own treatment.

By the way, one thing that bugged me just a little bit was your parenthetical comment about American fingerstyle ("as a genre, not a regional qualifier"), mainly because I think it's needless. "America" is simply too big to count as a "regional" qualifier (as opposed to, say, the Piedmont region or the Southwest region). I see what you're getting at—that it's not just a local variant of guitar playing—but I think if you leave this out, that will become self-evident from a well-written article. (After all, that's the whole point of having a separate section to cover American fingerpicking, that it is a separate genre.) +ILike2BeAnonymous 20:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for weighing in, Like2! I also thought "fingerpicking" and "fingerstyle" were synonymous, but the more I look into it, the more there seems to be a clear distinction. Two of the biggest producers of instructional DVDs (Homespun and Stephan Grossman's Guitar Workshop), for instance, treat them as distinct categories for instructional products. Homespun calls Fingerpicking "from the blues of Mississippi John Hurt to the country jazz of Merle Travis. Instruction in alternating thumb bass and syncopated melody notes of American fingerpicking, a favorite style among guitarists worldwide." Whereas Fingerstyle is everything else.

And then there the fact that "fingerpickers" do, in fact, often use picks (usually thumbpicks), while fingerstylers don't. I had hoped to steer clear of the whole issue, but it looks like it should be addressed now. Pleather 20:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but with all due respect to Homespun and Grossman, that fingerpicking/fingerstyle distinction is basically bullshit. Some fingerpickers use finger picks (like Kottke), and some don't; it's still the same style.

I think it's taxonomy time again, or at least a little categorization to try to clear things up. There are basically three ways to play the guitar (apart from exotic techniques like two-handed fretting/percussive playing or instruments like the Chapman Stick):

Fingerpicking, meaning the playing of individual notes by plucking with the fingers, with or without fingerpicks; this technique basically covers the entire genre of so-called "classical" guitar.
- A subcategory of this is so-called Travis picking, or any style of fingerpicking that uses alternating bass as ostinato.
Flatpicking, or the playing of individual notes with a flatpick. While this term is somewhat inextricably tied to American country players, it applies equally to rock guitarists, even though they wouldn't be caught dead identifying themselves as "flatpickers".
Strumming, or playing the instrument rhythmically by strumming all strings chordally, either with a pick or without. In the 50's era of folk music, this is basically all guitarists (e.g., Kingston Trio, et al), did.

This classification applies equally to classical, rock and folk genres of playing. There is some crossing over, for instance when a rock rhythm guitarist, who generally uses strumming (though in a more powerful way than, say, most folk players) may play melodic lines, changing to fingerpicking.

It might be worthwhile mentioning these other techniques in this article for the sake of completeness. +ILike2BeAnonymous 23:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would add Tuck Andress to your list of notable fingerstyle guitarists. He's a bit hard to categorize, as he plays a singular style combining jazz chord-melody and percussive styles, but he's definitely a master of the style. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.95.204.70 (talk) 14:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Fingerstyle versus fingerpicking

I'm sorry that you dismiss the distinction between fingerstyle and fingerpicking as "basically bullshit," Like2. Perhaps in your own personal experience the terms appear synonymous, but if we're going to draw from personal experience, I have to tell you it's very much the opposite with me. I have always understood them to be distinctly different. I've been looking into the matter, and while some people use the terms synonymously, it appears that "fingerpicking" is most often used as a subset of "fingerstyle". I quote the following from Homespun Video, the largest producer of music instruction DVDs:

"Finger style" refers to any type of music in which the strings are plucked by the fingers rather than by a pick. Classical guitarists invariably play finger style, as do many singers accompanying folk songs. (This "classical" style usually involves the thumb and three fingers --index, middle and ring). Many top players use this technique to play beautiful instrumentals in various forms. Martin Simpson's Celtic arrangements, Artie Traum's fingerstyle jazz and Keola Beamer's Hawaiian slack key guitar are some examples.

"Fingerpicking" (also called "thumb picking" or "alternating bass") is a term that is used to describe both a style and a type of music. It falls under the "fingerstyle" heading because it is played by the fingers, but it's generally used to play a specific type of folk, country-jazz and/or blues music. In this technique, the thumb maintains a steady rhythm on the low strings while the index, or index and middle fingers pick out melody and fill-in notes on the high strings. Originally developed by African American blues guitarists throughout the south imitating the bass and treble of piano rags, it was later adapted by white musicians - most notably Ike Everly, Merle Travis and Chet Atkins - who have created a blues/jazz/country hybrid that is extremely popular. Although usually played on acoustic guitars, Travis himself often played on hollow-body electrics, as do many other players.[2]

Other quotes:

"Fingerpicking falls under the fingerstyle category of ways to play the guitar." Richard Gillman, Fingerpicking Guitar [3].

"I've always called it fingerstyle. I have always seen chicken-pickin' defined as a subset of the fingerstyle technique. My classical/fingerstyle instructor from my teenage days was a master of this. He *made* me learn this style. [4]

Additionally, let me state these statistics:

I get 1,500,000 Google hits for "fingerstyle", and only 822,000 "fingerpicking".
There is a magazine called "Fingerstyle Guitar" [5]. There is no publication called "Fingerpicking Guitar".
In a search of the online archive of Acoustic Guitar magazine, the largest-circulation publication of its kind, I get 2,400 references to "fingerstyle", and 1,090 for "fingerpicking".

I agree with the general thrust of Like2Be's suggestion, that these two articles should be combined. But NOT because they are synonymous. Fingerpicking should be discussed within the greater realm of fingerstyle. --Pleather 08:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is a case of there being a distinction without a difference (or is that a difference without a distinction? I always get that mixed up). Notwithstanding the fact that there are certain connotations associated with "fingerpicking", in that one would not normally refer to a classical guitarist as a "fingerpicker". But keep in mind that not all players who fingerpick use finger picks, so we ought to just bury this myth altogether. (In other words, it really has nothing to do with using picks or not—as opposed to flatpicking, which by definition must use a plectrum.)

I would argue for treating this topic functionally, as a matter of the technique of playing the guitar first, with styles treated secondarily. It would make it much more clear that way, not to mention easier to write and organize. So, using whatever term is agreed upon for fingerpicking, we can say that classical guitarists, folk fingerpickers and all who fall into the category of "fingerstyle" players use this technique (as opposed to flatpicking and strumming, the only two other possible techniques). My own preference would be to use the term "fingerpicking" (and taking pains to explain that it isn't limited to the narrow definition given above), but I'm open to suggestions.

To borrow from another editor commenting on whether the term "fiddler" can apply to all violinists, it would be useful to make clear distinctions between denotation and connotation when dealing with these terms (fingerstyle/fingerpicking), denotation being what the term actually means, connotation being the other connections and colorations that the term brings to mind. +ILike2BeAnonymous 08:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've only heard the term "fingerstyle" in the last few years, definitely no more than 5. Seems to be more of a social media viral headline tag then something guitarists have labelled a technique, personally the word irritates me because it fits more hipster buzzfeed culture the anything i've ever seen over 35 years regarding guitar across several genresCzarnibog (talk)

Consensus on changes to article

You've hit the nail on the head with the "fiddle" versus "violin" metaphor. They are technically synonymous, but the real-world connotation is different.

I think these are the key points we need to make in this article:

1.) Fingerstyle is used to refer to both a technique and a group of musical genres.
2.) While some use fingerstyle and fingerpicking synonymously, others use the latter to connote one or more of those genres.
3.) As a technique, it does not exclude the use of picks--only flatpicks, held between the thumb and forefinger. Many fingerstyle musicians attach picks to individual fingers, or use a combination of thumbpick and fingers.

That's a starting point. We can build from there. --Pleather 17:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You have my stamp of approval. (Plus you seem willing to do the work, and are therefore less lazy than I.) +ILike2BeAnonymous 18:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the flatpick may be used in place of a thumbpick. The pick is held betweeen the thumb and forefinger as usual but the middle and possibly the ring finger take on picking duties.The Smilodon 01:56, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes; I think of that as kind of a hybrid of flatpicking and fingerpicking. 02:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there's already an article on that technique: Hybrid picking. I will most definitely link to it. --Pleather 03:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aaargh, just what we need, another article. I think it should be merged into this one as well. What do you think? +ILike2BeAnonymous 05:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One more thing: if the article ends up being merged into Fingerstyle guitar, then Fingerpicking should become a redirect to it. +ILike2BeAnonymous 02:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A merging problem to think about

One of the issues of this merge that no one has mentioned to this point is this: Fingerstyle guitar is more inclusive for fingerstyle guitar playing, but fingerpicking can include other instruments (the banjo comes to mind, but of course also includes mandolin, dulcimer, harp, lute, vihuela, and a plethora of non-western instruments). --Amazzing5 15:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your point is well taken, and we've already been working out how to address that. The merged article will likely be called just fingerstyle (right now, the term redirects into fingerpicking, which is equally guitar-centric). We will address it on the meta-instrumental level in the first paragraph, then drill down into guitars specifically. This makes sense because while other instruments are played with the fingers, only in the case of the guitar are both terms (fingerstyle and fingerpicking) commonly used. And only in the case of the guitar do they refer not only to a technique, but to a set of musical genres as well. Hope this address your concerns. --Pleather 16:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No; I'm sure you were aware of it and just forgot, but the term definitely applies to the banjo, especially as regards both bluegrass and earlier "old-timey" styles of playing. +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's good of you to bring it up, but no, I didn't forget banjo. My understanding (and correct me if you wish) is that the banjo, like the harp, is an inherently fingerpicked/strummed instrument; if you took a flatpick to it, you'd be something of a novelty act. Alternately, the mandolin and the bouzouki are inherently flatpicked instruments; they're too small to put out sufficient volume otherwise, and the flatpick's oscillation between grouped strings is a key component to their sound.

[Allow me to interject here briefly] Actually, the banjo is not "inherently fingerpicked", as shown by the tenor banjo and by Dixieland banjo playing, both using a pick. +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. Looks like you're right there. I'll drop the "inherently" argument. Do we want Fingerpicking to become a disambiguation page, perhaps? Pleather 17:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think not, and here I'd argue from the other side: the bulk of this technique belongs to the guitar, so having one article and no disambiguation page would be cleaner and simpler. The article should, however, be sure to point out the use of this technique on other instruments as applicable (certainly banjo, perhaps others, though I can't think of any offhand: are we sure, for instance, that there aren't any Asian or African instruments that use this technique? Always remember: TWIAVBP.) +ILike2BeAnonymous 18:00, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are a lot of instruments that CAN, and often are, plucked with the fingers. But when it comes to an instrument whose repertoire is clearly demarcated between flatpicking and fingerpicking/fingerstyle, we're really only talking about the guitar. This, of course, is what we'll have to make clear in the article itself. Does that make sense?--Pleather 17:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As a note to that, both the lute (in its various forms) and the vihuela have a history of being played with the fingers and with plectrums. As for being demarcated, it is a similar demarcation as with the guitar because of the limitations/advantages of both techniques. The development of playing the lute 'fingerstyle' happened in the middle of the renaissance to be able to play polyphonic music. --Amazzing5 18:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

MERGE, because:

1 - There are components of either thing's articles lying in the other's... It is whole warped up. 2 - The FINGER-using (playing/picking/style) enciclopedically must be in one article... Either one major article, about all techiniques with playing a guitar with fingers, and corresponding sub-articles of fingerstyle, fingerpicking and hybrid picking, either all separate articles. 3 - There are too much links between the articles... You can't fully understand one without reading another. 4 - The article are a bit too confused, for most guitarist will be searching all FINGER-GUITAR articles to find, what's this or that meaning. CONFUSED, we get, at such complex words! =) And, at last, enciclopedically, it is "hard-readable", if you understand, the thing, when an article is shouting at itself about being amateur, incomplete, and other ways lame... 5 - Fingerpicking is a technique of Fingerstyle guitar, as sweep-picking, or alternate-picking is in pick... AND hybrid picking should be mentioned in both the articles 'bout fingerstyle and "pick-style" guitar, because it refert to combining 'em up... BUT:

If someone will expand and clean these articles, and finally include here a basic description of finger picking and hybrid-picking with links to appropriate articles, thay will look good separately... This way leave them separate. OTHER - MERGE!

Echad 02:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Slack key

Plugged in a short (but not too stubby, I hope) section that links to the slack key article-in-progress. RLetson 22:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not to start one of those is not-is too arguments, but I removed Bob Brozman from the list of prominent slack key players. While Bob does play slack key, his primary instruments are slide and lap steel. I've seen him play uke as well, but one wouldn't put him on a list of influential uke players. RLetson 17:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Percussive Fingerstyle?

I'm a fingerstyle guitarist and I've never heard of Percussive Fingerstyle. I don't NECESSARILY think it's a bogus category. Maybe there are enough folks like Preston Reed and Kaki King and obviously the late Michael Hedges to define this as a category. If we go with it we should mention Hedges and FLAMENCO, where folks have been percussive on the guitar for 150 years or so. What do you all think? Dalemi 00:30, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to be an emerging category label--what we used to call "tapping" or "slapping" and associate with Hedges and Reed. A quick & dirty Google shows some uses of "percussive" as an ordinary adjective that describes a technique and some that are clearly meant to describe a style or school of playing--there's a how-to article in a recent Acoustic Guitar magazine with that as the title. I suspect that this heading in a Wiki article is the leading edge of a newish way of talking about the style. RLetson 17:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fingerstyle jazz query

Can someone supply sources for Lang, Kress, and Van Eps as fingerstyle players? The recordings I've heard all sound pick-based, but I'm willing to be corrected on this. (My suspicion is that for these players fingerstyle was the exception--as was the case with Django, who recorded a couple fingerstyle solos.) In fact, even the Joe Pass reference would benefit from a source or example (from liner notes or a video, for example), since much of Pass's work is pickstyle. Breau, I think, can safely be left as is. Unmentioned (and quite significant) are Laurindo Almeida and Charlie Byrd, along with the whole South American and African schools (Baden Powell, Bola Sete). RLetson 17:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To RLetson:

I typed a lengthy response to you query, but it is apparently lost. This is most disappointing, and probably the last post I will every make here... Algba (talk) 19:46, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Well-known" instead of "notable"

I've changed the heading "Notable fingerstyle players" to "Well-known fingerstyle players", because too many names are being added to the list that, with all due respect, are for people who have yet to establish true fame in this field. I think it makes sense to limit it to those with substantial, high-profile careers as prominent artists whose style is predominantly fingerstyle.-- P L E A T H E R _talk 05:54, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

merger with fingerpicking

I have put in a request for this article to be merged with fingerstyle guitar, a administrator will be coming to do this as it wouldn't let me move it.--Mikeoman 12:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To any admins willing to take this on: please understand that the request is for fingerpicking to redirect to fingerstyle, not the other way around. I just had to undo a redirect that went against the consensus so painstakingly established on both discussion pages. -- P L E A T H E R _talk 04:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The two articles are now merged

Ok, i've merged the two articles together, the admin guys said (and I quote!) copy and paste into the article your want to be merged into, i've emailed the guys and asked them to make fingerstyle guitar into a redirect and i'm awaiting their reply. Now just so you all know- I've tweaked the introduction so it can refer to any instrument- however as my expertise only lies within the guitar, I won't do any other instruments the discredit by attempting to blag, I do feel however the need to ask the bassists, banjoists, violinists- if they feel they need a place within this article as was brought up previously.--Mikeoman 16:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

classical guitar

I've added a classical guitar section to the article, as I am myself, a classical guitarist, can I have some feedback please? i.e. did I miss anything out, is it necessary and does everyone understand what i'm saying? If not I can sort out some examples for you all or rewrite it--Mikeoman 16:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well done , I've amended a little. By the way the "New age " section is complete BS. RichardJ Christie 13:54, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, transfering music isn't my strong suit. I think your edit more precise than mine and articulated a lot better but I think this statement could be expanded is that it has evolved to enable solo rendition of polyphonic music in much the same manner as the pianoforte can as it's a touch misleading. 1)You use the word- evolve, but from what? it's old music classical guitar was founded pre 1500's we need some dates for it and we need to briefly discuss the history of it (I presume you're talking about baroque) without waffling on too much as we already have a good article on classical guitar (which I think is a good link-especially in this article). something like composers such as (name) composed a polyphonic piece and so forth- i'm not so hot on history. 2)You compare it to the pianoforte that redirects onto piano, i'm unclear whether you're refering to dynamics or to the piano, if it is the piano (then don't call it pianoforte it's confusing!), then I think any unbowed (correct me if i'm using the wrong word- i.e. not violin, cello etc.) stringed instrument can be potentially contrapuntal, I know piano is the natural choice, but we must remember that a lute (and probably a few instruments that I don't know of)are fingerpicked , I believe it shouldn't be guitar centred, but centred around classical music. 3)When you say Solo rendition of polyphonic music, I know what you're talking about because I'm a guitarist, but if a non musician read it he wouldn't know what you meant- so we need to spell it out, could you (because I don't know how) provide an example of a polyphonic rhythem and I can do the little quote explaining it to those who can't read music- if you take inspiration from the baroque guitar pieces like allegretto or adante (it's simple as well), we only need a bar.

I'm sure that you mean well and you're writing style shows intellegence but the average man and I think the article should be readable to everyone- not just musicians, so lets discuss these 3 points and expand the section.--Mikeoman 23:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'll address your points.

1) "evolve" or perhaps developed call it what you will, the instrument "evolved" to what it is today, which is the subject of the section. I don't think this article is the place for a history lesson on the instrument, we already have the main guitar article as well as several on classical guitar, its history technique, repertoire etc. So I don't think the word is at misleading in context.

2 and 3) I'm refering to the pianoforte's ability to play, in a solo capacity (not in an ensemble), polyphonic music. The guitar (and family of fretted instruments) can easily do this and aside from other the types of keyboard, the harp, and certain percussion (glockelspiel) instruments they are unique in this ability. The piano was chosen as it is the most obvious example and well known to most. Use of the piano in the example is not mutually exclusive of other instruments capable of the same practise. Yes, we could explain polyphonic music in this article but again, I think this article is not the place to do so, therefore I added the link to polyphony. I've added the term harmony to try to further clarify (nor I see no need to expain that term within this article)

Pianoforte is the full name of the instrument commonly known as the piano. I am used to both terms, I commonly use the term violoncello to describe 'cello as well, especially when I'm writing in a formal situation. Simplify if you wish, but perhaps using the full term might serve to educate! and anyway, clarification is now only a click away on the link. RichardJ Christie 01:25, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK points 2&3 I agree with in the context of this article, so long as there's an internal link i'm fine. I still think history is important- I know the article needs cleaning up but would you object if I put the 'history of classical guitar' in the article, with a brief summary beforehand?--Mikeoman 21:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Don't quite know what you mean by putting in 'History of the classical guitar' - even if refering only to its playing technique - that would require a book or two to cover on its own <smile>. Go ahead , .... I'm intrigued. RichardJ Christie 10:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm refering to the wiki article- it has a lot of gaps and it's scatty but it's what all we have here, you might want to have a glance at it and add your expertise to it., i'll include it in the section as a rough guide--Mikeoman 14:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've also kept it quite brief- as you say no need to reiterate i've included the baroque and renaissance music, as that's included in the article i'm sure there's more but there's no more that comes to mind, please add a few more external links if you can think of them--Mikeoman 15:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article still includes this sentence: "The major feature of classical fingerstyle technique is that it has evolved to enable solo rendition of harmony and polyphonic music in much the same manner as the piano can." Evolved is misleading because it suggests that homophony historically came before polyphony, which is just not the case. It is also superfluous and verbose. One word, enables, can easily replace four, has evolved to enable. I'm making the change. TheScotch (talk) 10:33, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The T notation for thumb for the fretting hand contradicts the later text in the same section, "On the classical guitar (CG hereafter) thumb of the left hand is never used to stop strings from above (as is done on the electric guitar): the neck of a classical guitar is too wide and the normal position of the thumb used in classical guitar technique do not make that possible." Furthermore, as an amateur classical guitarist my understanding is that the later text is the correct description. My dozens of printed books and online sources have never given T notation nor have they indicated use of the thumb, which is AFAIK verboten in classical style. I have also added the very minor caveat 'when used' for the plucking pinky, as it is not as common, notes on additional, variant notation for this finger regarding e, x and c, adding q, with citations, and as a semi-native speaker of northern Mexican Spanish, after consultation with dictionaries, a language forum with threads on the topic, WordReference.com and Google Books Ngrams Viewer, reordered the Spanish terms for pinky by frequency (meñique is dominant, formally correct, universally understood and dominant in NGrams, with dedo pequeño barely recognized in the latter, and dedo auricular flatlining at zero in the corpus). The c is often said to be the initial of chiquito but note that the Spanish letter is ch not c, so the term initial is technically not precise; a subtle change has been made to reflect this concisely. The prior version was overly confident in asserting that e and x were not initials (e might be; x cannot possibly be), and a subtle change has been made to correct this; it also gave no citation for e, x and c, and since this category is problematic (given the diversity of terms and sparseness of usage) I add one. Although there is no evidence of their origin (e and x), prominent speculation does rest upon the e as initial for extremo, with the x also representing the sound of this initial syllable; ch and q are also in use. As I have web citations for q, I add the most reliable (reasonably authoritative) one found so far (the prominent classical guitarist, professor and creator or teaching materials for CG, Douglas Niedt and will add others shortly if I can find authoritative ones and time; I leave the ch aside for the moment until I have a good citation and evidence of its actual use). Dragonbones (talk) 08:03, 6 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

NAME of merged article.

It appears from my quick reading of 'Talk' above that "fingerstyle" is preferable to "fingerpicking". I certainly agree. "Picking" is not a term historically used in the literature, "plucking" is though, picking I suspect is a term highly likely of US origin with strong roots in plectrum playing culture. I also suspect that most classical players would be horrified to be described as fingerpickers. RichardJ Christie 01:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What you said. +ILike2BeAnonymous 02:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's a cultural/use of english kind of thing, in my knowledge, when people commonly use a plectrum aka pick it's known as 'picking' for example we'll call the right hand the 'picking hand', also in a lot of our books when refering to this concept refer to it as fingerpicking- I think it's my english(British) culture, but to say fingerstyle just seems wrong to me, my teacher calls it fingerpicking and so do my friends, to call it something else just sounds like a play on words. I put classical music there because it's played with the fingers, but I think generally speaking classical music is entirely different to say ragtime, folk etc. i'd say without giving discredit to other music styles it's far more developed and really throughly explored and well organised kind of music (because of the shear history of the music and the great composers)- with little to do with modern music. Thus (in my culture at least) a classical guitarist is refered to as neither a fingerstylist or a fingerpicker they are a just a "classical guitarists" because it is such a great difference in comparison to other kinds of fingerpicking, I think it is inappropriate to call them the latter terms just a "classical guitarist" that's what i'd want to be called. I personally don't mind what you call the article (we english are used to most americanisations and the content here is mostly good and that won't change) but please mention that it is also called fingerpicking and it'll be fine with me.--Mikeoman 20:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I spent three years at a conservatorium and have attended dozens of masterclasses etc, my principle teacher, the late Antonio Losada (well known in Australasia and Madrid), trained under Sainz de la Maza in Madrid and later with A Segovia. In 20 years of involvement in professional music I've never heard classical technique referred to as "fingerpicking" by any professionals or academics that I've known, nor have I read the term in any treatise or method on classical guitar. However, I feel comfortable with the various schools of classical technique (there are several) being classified as belonging to the broad category of fingerstyle guitar. I don't know how to change the article name or I would have done so already, is it as simple as a normal edit? what about articles that link here? RichardJ Christie 10:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then I think you are the more experienced of the two of us (you've been involved in proffessional classical music for each year I've been born!- I on the other hand have been playing classical a year and have grown to love it) so i'll take your word for it- i'm unsure whether it's a language thing- our exam books say 'fingerpicking' (London college of music exams) for the electric and acoustic exams, so we must ensure we have a redirect from fingerpicking to fingerstyle as long as the contents are similar then it is my opinion that people can research it for themselves and learn to play it- that is why (in my opinion) we have a guitar techniques section and that is the motive for this article. Don't worry about the change in name i'll do it- but for future reference if you look up the top next to the '+' there's move, you can do everything there.--Mikeoman 14:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I promise i'll do this in the next few days setmontosis (an administrator (can't spell it look at my 'my talk')) has been helping me merge the article from the fingerstyle guitar to this one, i'd appreciate it if you'd leave it to me as it saves a lot of confusion(fear not it will eventually be called fingerstyle, if you'd like more info look at my 'my talk' and then go find his 'my talk'- our discussion is there--Mikeoman 15:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh well, things obviously change, London College use the term term now, well I never. The relentless march of US cultural imperialism (that's said light-heartedly for those US residents who might choose to take offence). Guess we'll all soon be geetar pickas jez waiting for our next hoe down. RichardJ Christie 04:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You misunderstand- I said that's the case for the electric and soon to be created acoustic exams (a lot less prestigous- improvisational lead, rhythmic chord bases stuff, plus some pitch tests, repitition of melodic phrases and so forth- quite easy)- I know this because i've spent my gap year multitasking between the electric and the classical, LCM make no reference to fingerpicking/style in their classical exam books (they just give a choice a 3/12 or so pieces to learn, some scales, sight reading, pitch tests, keeping a beat but they neither call it fingerstyle or fingerpicking)- they do however expect you to fingerpick/style in a classical style they have fingering arrangments i.e. primary, index middle etc. on their music pieces. I think we should agree that classical is clearly a different teachnique to ragtime (I know because I dabble in it), folk (I dabble in this) and jazz therefore (and correct me if i'm wrong here)- your argument is based upon your objection to classical music being called 'fingerpicking', whereas other music types'll happily accept this title therefore I suggest that we alter the classical section by saying that in classical music it's called fingerstyle not fingerpicking? alternatively we can tweak the article name so it's called 'fingerpicking/fingerstyle' and in the introduction explain that different music types or different english styles (i.e. british english, american english or new zealand english) address playing with the fingers or thumbs by these different names however they penultimately they refer to the the same concept that of course is why we merged (or attempting to merge) the two articles together in the first place--Mikeoman 22:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I simply disagree with you. I maintain that the term "picking" is of recent usage (largely 20th century), (and very likely of US origin), its use arises from the transference of the use and operation of a plectrum (PICK) to the fingers. From that viewpoint, the basic operation is to activate the strings with a pick. Then, using the fingers is an aberration to the norm that must then described by the term finger"picking". If you take the time to do a simple survey of guitar literature over the centuries you will not find that plucking the strings with the fingers is refered to as picking them.

Ragtime is NOT a playing technique, it is a musical style. Fingerstyle performance of ragtime on guitar may (or may not) use a variations on standard classical right hand technique. Jazz is NOT a playing technique, it is a musical style. When heard played fingerstyle it is most often executed by players using very rudimentary right hand technique, this is a generalisation, I know, but easily justifiable when comparing jazz players playing fingerstyle (even celebrated ones) to classical performers.

However and in contrast, classical guitar music is NOT defined by a musical style, it IS defined by technique, or rather, music that is performed on an instrument of certain construction using a set of techniques.

RichardJ Christie 06:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your comments on the fact we have a 'jazz guitar' perhaps, I'm unsure how jazz works- I think it's by appeggios and in such a case we need to entitle it 'fingerpicking/style appeggios(excuse the spelling)' and then explain that in popularly used in jazz, jazz isn't my thing so I shalnt edit that bit or in the case of ragtime then a section entitled 'alternate bass line' as it is an article about technique and not about musical style- that said I wouldn't know what to call the classical bit because as well as classical we have flamenco which is also important.

To my knowledge and as I have been taught before by my teacher (my origins lie within electic/acoustic) fingerpicking is chord based and it's an alternative to strumming (exceptions are made to classical) it's always been proposed to me as an alternative way of playing chords (not scales you can only do it on a classical)- it doesn't have to be rigid you can add other scale degrees that are in the key, it can be part of the rhythm or have a more melodic and especially if we look at the travis picking in the article you can see that it's another way of playing the key of C. to my knowledge a lot of the articles are refering to what you'd call a free stroke- in a acoustic or electric it's hard to get a decent sound and speed using a rest stroke because the strings are too hard and rigid- that's why we use a pick- we can get a lot of speed, so there really isn't much point using a rest stroke- it's not a valid alternative to playing scales, we practise and master out picking technique (or we cheat and use hybrid picking), we have lots of techniques on how to cross strings and for many a pick isn't a handicap. --Mikeoman 14:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fingerpicking is an USA term for plucking the strings with the fingers instead of the plectrum or PICK, its origins are not in the mainstream of general "acoustic" guitar history.

I'm sure you mean well, but I do not find your arguments coherent. RichardJ Christie 11:13, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest I think it's a name that's and style of english (i.e. british, american, canadian so forth), I feel the same about the above statement. But in all honesty we're bickering over a small thing so long as it's mentioned (as it is), Pleather's inadvertantely reached the consensus I wanted and hopefully you're happy, so let's just agree to disagree and focus on the article.--Mikeoman 20:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Archived discussion on "American" fingerstyle

sorry to interfere, but if 'American fingerstyle guitar is a style of fingerpicking' (so the definition) guitarists from other countries also can play in that 'style' - or can't they (BTW: What about South American guitarists playing 'American' style) ??? Since there's no category 'Australian fingerstyle guitar' (or 'United Kingdom' (what about Stefan Grossman et al.?), what about creating a list of 'Non-American Guitarists playing American fingerstyle guitar' (if that's not too silly ;-) StefanWirz 07:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm the one who removed Tommy Emmanuel from the list of guitarists here. The article on him says nothing about him playing American fingerstyle; if someone can come up with supporting evidence that he, in fact, does, then he can go back in. One needn't be American to be in the list, but one is required to play the style described in the article, no?

Stefan Grossman is American, albeit an ex-pat. And yes, lists like that would be too silly. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 07:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ok - but then the reason you gave for removing him ('Tommy Emmanuel is an *Australian* guitarist. The article is *American fingerstyle guitar*.') has been a bit misleading (at least *I* have been mislead) - or is it my (as a German) misunderstanding of the english language ? StefanWirz 08:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sheesh; I removed him because the article on him (right here in this so-called "encyclopedia") doesn't say he plays American fingerstyle guitar. Therefore, I would assume he doesn't play that style, unless, as I said, someone can show otherwise. (Being Australian, I'd assume he plays, well, Australian music. I could be wrong.) You're making this more complicated than it really is; nothing magical about the use of words here. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 09:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lindsey Buckingham

Who keeps on deleting Lindsey Buckingham from the list of fingerstyle guitar players? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.64.198.188 (talk) 04:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you had read the edit history, or posted here sooner, you'd know why. It's because, according to at least one editor, Lindsey Buckingham is not a fingerpicking specialist. The list is for specialists. Please present your case that Lindsey Buckingham is a fingerstyle specialist, not merely a player who happens to use fingerpicking from time to time. - furrykef (Talk at me) 12:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On the fingerstyle guitar main page before the list of players, it says "The following musicians primarily use fingerstyle playing, rather than other methods (flat-picking, strumming, etc.) of playing guitar." I do not see the word fingerstyle specialist in that description. By the way Lindsey Buckingham doesn't use fingerpicking 'from time to time'; he fingerpicks all of the time. I've never seen him use a pick.

I'm reverting to earlier language, to make this even clearer. Lindsey Buckingham is not a solo performer. -- P L E A T H E R _talk 21:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Technically speaking no, as he does have a backing band, but he has released albums and toured outside of Fleetwood Mac. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.64.198.188 (talk) 00:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please understand: what we're trying to do here is to keep this from devolving into a list of every rock star who ever touched fingers to strings. Anyone who lays down the pick is using the technique of fingerstyle; what we're after here are musicians who specialize in the genres created by that technique: musicians like Michael Hedges or Andy McKee, who have devoted their lives to getting an incredible array of sounds out of a single guitar. Lindsey Buckingham has written some songs with fingerpicked parts ("Landslide", to name a very popular one), but he's an ensemble player, not a one-man show. -- P L E A T H E R _talk 01:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's just delete the list of fingerstyle players

I think the list just does not work. There's constant quibbling over who does and does not belong, and I don't think it's right that we often simply delete things that are added out of order instead of simply reordering them (even though I've done it myself a few times). I think everyone has a different idea of what belongs in the list -- even with the caveat that it's about fingerstyle specialists -- and it doesn't do terribly much good. Any of the really, really notable players like Knopfler and Atkins can be, and already are, mentioned elsewhere.

I already deleted the list from the article. Of course, it's not hard to restore it if you really, really think it should be there... - furrykef (Talk at me) 16:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. Lists should be banned from most articles. It would be wiser to provide a context, and not names only.--Jo (talk) 17:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yup. After months and months of grappling with people putting their favorite rock god in there, I've come to the same conclusion. If we want to point people to exemplary fingerstylists, we can do so by mentioning them in the context of the article itself. Even if the list didn't get abused, it would just grow to the point where it overwhelmed the article, and I don't see the point in that. Kudos for performing the incision. -- P L E A T H E R _talk 19:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Um. Mark Knopfler?

Where in the scheme of things here would a master finger picking rocker like Mark Knopfler fit? Regardless of what you or I think of Rolling Stone Magazine's top 100 guitarists list, he is prominent in standing in the top bunch on the list, so... ? Thanks. --leahtwosaints (talk) 01:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you have a clear idea of the place of rock/pop musicicians who play with fingers, why not insert an appropriate paragraph or section? There is some sentiment here against seeing rock guitarists as "fingerstylists" in the same sense that, say, Michael Hedges was, but I for one would be willing to see a well-sourced position that locates Knopfler, Lindsey Buckingham, and others whose techniques might fit in with the acoustic, classical, and jazz traditions outlined here. I suppose one criterion for including a player/technique would be how the fingerpicking in question affects the music: is it polyphonic or just pickless single lines or hybrid-style double-stops? For example, I wouldn't call Wes Montgomery a fingerstyle player, since he just substituted his thumb for a flatpick. RLetson (talk) 23:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Definitions Questioned (Heresy)

Let me start by saying that I'm not a musicologist, and I would only call myself a music historian in a very narrow sub-field, but I've been playing guitar & banjo since 1959, and "fingerstyle" since 1963, and have done some research on what it is that I'm trying to do. I'm not out to get the article re-written from my POV; I'm just going to point out some definitions and declarations that I think need re-thinking.

First, the definition of fp as using the right hand to play what would "normally be played by several band members" is odd. The three notes of an arpeggiated chord, for example, are not "normally" played on different instruments, are they? Yes, you can get bass and treble notes from fp, but it just seems off the mark to use that to define the style. IMO, the point is that the thumb and fingers are used individually or in combination to render single notes, as opposed to strumming entire chords at one time. Period.

Flat-pickers can play individual notes or whole chords, so the distinction between flat- and finger-picking is not what's hit, just how you hit it.

Is "percussive fp" really a style, or is it a technique? I hit the strings or the box or both in a couple of songs. Does that make me a percussion style player? There's thing called a huapanga that goes down-up-knock-knock. I use it on the first verse of "Pancho and Lefty." Then I go to a rasqueado-based classical pattern for the rest of the song. To my mind, I am neither a percussive fingerpicker nor a classical guitar player; I am simply using a variety of techniques.

Maybe it's true that more fp-ers use steel strings, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with nylon strings for fp-ing, especially if you want a mellow sound. I would think this would be especially true since the development of "high tension" nylon strings.

I am curious about "the list," and wish I had seen it before it went away. John Fahey is, IMO, a top-level musician and I have nothing against him, but I'm looking for the whole story, which I think involves Albert Schultz [Schurtz ??] whom I can't elaborate on right now because I can't find sources without the right spelling of his name. But as I understand it, he was a pioneer of fingerpicking and was playing around the year 1900. I will research that and hopefully somebody else will find him first and save me the trouble.

Oh, finally, to me finger- and thumb-style are distinct. I have the greatest admiration for thumbers, who are doing something a proverbial quantum leap above mere fp.

"Pattern picking," in the usage I know, is fp limited to background patterns (no emphasized melody). As soon as you start stressing or adding the melody notes to play an "instrumental break," you have gone beyond pattern picking in the strict sense. You're still in the fp realm, but you've added a melody to the rhythm accompaniment.

[Sounded dangerously like the definition I rejected to start with, didn't it. But a piano player plays melody and accompaniment too, and I wouldn't define piano playing that way.]

Sorry for such a long post.

Terry J. Carter (talk) 00:27, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about Paul Simon?

What category does Paul Simon fit in or folk-jazz Davey Graham. Most fingerstyle players are not composer-lyricist-singers like Simon but his fingerstlye guitar is an essential element of his folk-jazz-rock composing.--Dcrasno (talk) 20:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Structure

The currenty layout is quite peculiar, with an intoduction to the steel-strings styles immediately followed by discussion of nylon-string. I think a stucture of major sections and sub-sections is needed, like:

Fingerpicking

   Travis picking 
   American primitive guitar
   Ragtime guitar

Other steel string styles

   New Age" fingerstyle
   Folk baroque
   Slack-key guitar
   Percussive fingerstyle
   Fingerstyle jazz guitar

Nylon String styles

   Classical guitar fingerstyle
   Flamenco guitar fingerstyle

1Z (talk) 17:34, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some notable guitarists list

This list at the end of electic fingerstyle is problematic:

appearing right at the end casual readers (and editors it seems) can take it to be a list of all influential players, or just of jazz players (format actually suggests all electric players)

because there are no references there is no criteria for inclusion, leading to several edit changes and revisions

Wikipedia generally discourages long lists Wikipedia:Lists

Most of the players here are already mentioned in the text.

Can we dispense with this, perhaps placing those not already mentioned into the text where possible?--Sabrebd (talk) 07:08, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed 1Z (talk) 10:34, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed - I'm not sure that Stephen Malkmus is known for his electric fingerstyle technique. Pklala (talk) 05:12, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dead Link in External References

The second external reference, titled "Fingerstyle Guitar Magazine (online features and resources)", has a url of http://fingerstyleguitar.com/html/fsg_olf.htm . This is a dead link. Just try it. Error 404 page not found. Anyway, may I suggest that it link to this url: http://www.fingerstyleguitar.com . Goes to the same place but is not a dead link. Thanks for considering my suggestion. -Kevin 99.14.81.32 (talk) 03:32, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing this out. As this is essentially a link to a commercial product it would almost certainly fail the criteria for WP:External links. I have deleted the dead link and suggest we leave it at that as it was not an inline citation supporting a statement.--SabreBD (talk) 09:15, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Right...

I stopped reading this article as soon as I reached, "Fingerpicking originated from the classical guitar..." What nonsense. Numerous European string instruments used in early classical music were intended to be played without a plectrum or bow centuries prior to the "modern" classical guitar. This article clearly has plenty of original research. Pfff... I'll read it some other time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.117.214.104 (talk) 05:39, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Missing genres

The article needs some mention of the Latin American and African traditions.1Z (talk) 14:37, 14 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Include Jean Bosco Mwenda and Adrian Legg. 1Z (talk) 15:34, 14 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Handedness

Can the article be edited so as to not suggest that every person plays the guitar right-handed? Or does this technique for some reason not work if you play left-handed? 173.160.130.14 (talk) 00:42, 9 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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