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Talk:Figure skating at the 2010 Winter Olympics – Ladies' singles

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Abbreviations

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There should be some explanation of the columns here, the acronyms or abbreviations are meaningless to most casual viewers. 69.169.140.49 (talk) 18:04, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The tables use tool tips. Hover over the letters and the full words appear. But it may not be intuitive; I've added a legend section. :) Kolindigo (talk) 00:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ladies?

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How come this article is titled 'Ladies' referring to female competitors, but all other Olympic articles use 'Women's' ? Nosleep (Talk · Contribs) 04:51, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Because that's what it's called.[1] ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Because that's what the official name is according to the International Skating Union. Kolindigo (talk) 05:13, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
[2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] I ask because I seem to recall on a WP:OLY subpage somewhere that they had specifically resolved to use 'Women's' and not 'Ladies' Nosleep (Talk · Contribs) 06:16, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize if I sound curt, it's been a long Olympics. Can you bring this up at WP:FIGURE or link there to a central discussion place if you're proposing a page move of all Ladies event at the Olympic articles and a mass terminology change? Ladies, though antiquated, is still the official term used in figure skating. Skate Canada (governing body) is, so far as I know, the only governing body to use "Women" officially, and so that's what's used in articles like 2010 Canadian Figure Skating Championships. But the international and official terminology is still Lady. Kolindigo (talk) 06:29, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But don't those other Vancouver 2010 links seem to suggest that it also is in the other sports, for which we use "Women" categorically (the Vancouver 2010 site does use "Women" for a few sports, bobsleigh and hockey among them)? I'm not necessarily 'proposing' anything, I just don't understand. Nosleep (Talk · Contribs) 06:36, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mao Asada & triple axels

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I believe it's relevant that Mao Asada set a few Olympic firsts at this competition. She was the first woman in history to successfully land the triple axel in a combination. Also first woman to do three triple axels in one competition. Being the first woman in the sport is just as important as setting a record score. If we delete Asada's accomplishments, then we should also delete Kim Yuna's record scores. My vote is to keep all these records. Kirin13 (talk) 06:06, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To continue on my previous statement, I believe being the first in a sport to do something is even more important than setting a record score. Only one person is the first to do something and that stands forever more. Records though are beaten - they may stand 10, 20, 40 years, but eventually they get beaten. I believe this article should state both the firsts and the records. However if it should state only one, then that should be the firsts. If you wish to remove Asada's records, remove Kim's as well. However, before doing either, please discuss here. Thanks, Kirin13 (talk) 06:51, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Kirin13 I don't know how to use this talk page well. But, one thing I want to say that triple axels description does not match the [consistency, relevency and generality] of wikipedia's previous olympic figure skating pages. [consistency, relevency, generality] are the keys I am emphasizing !!

Why triple axels, suddenly? Is figure skating a competition of jumping?

We do not describe all statistics of WHO DID WHICH JUMPS, how many times or for the first time in Olympics in wikipedia's figure skating pages. Mao Asada did triple axels, maybe that's good for her. But, what about other jumps described in Wikipedia? Who did double axels first in what olympics, in wikipedia? Who did triple lutz in what olympics, in wikipedia?

Do not list up every clumsy statistics. You seem obsessed with some weird statistics other than this. ( such as some country's not winning medals is first record etc )

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Heritoctavus (talk • contribs) 08:18, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Well, this is funny. Yuna Kim's records are Olympic records ( as well as world records by ISU). This wikipedia page is about the Olympics figure skating. Not world's jumping competition. Contents must follow the title - 2014 Winter olympics figure skating ladies singles. Is triple axels Olympic record or official ISU world record ?

I REPEAT - IS TRIPLE AXELS AN OFFICIAL ISU WORLD RECORD ?

You can describe it in another wikipedia pages but not here. OK? If you ever remove the description of official Olympic record (ISU world records) from 2010 Winter olympics figure skating ladies singles page, I WILL REPORT THIS VANDALISM TO THE ADMINISTRATOR. OK? That is official records. You remove it , you are vandalist.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Heritoctavus (talk • contribs) 08:27, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Heritoctavus, on talk pages, please add new comments to the bottom of a section. Also sign using four tildes (~'s).

Yes, a women performing triple axels is an Olympic record. Asada was the first to do triple axel in a combination, first to do one in the short program, first to do multiple triple axels in a competition, and first to do multiple in a single program. She set the records to 1 triple axel in the short program, 2 triple axels in the long program, and 3 triple axels in a competition. That's 4 firsts and 3 records. This was all done during this competition, so yeah, it goes within this Wikipedia article.

Jumping firsts and records are not 'weird' statistics. They are just rare. It is to do something no one has done before. If you watched the 2010 figure skating competition or read the news about it, then you would have heard or read about Asada's firsts and records. The reason you didn't hear about it at this Olympics is because none were set.

Also, Heritoctavus, try to be civil. This is a discussion, not brawl. Thanks, Kirin13 (talk) 09:17, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Heritoctavus, I have made several edits. Each one has reason listed. Please discuss here instead of reverting them.

As far as the jumps go, there is a lot more to sports then setting best time or score. There is also be the first to do something. There is also doing a complex move that no one else even attempts. Event commentators remark on them and news articles discuss them. That makes it relevant and shows notability. As noted in previous comment, these type of firsts/records are rare. If other competitions don't note them, it's because they didn't happen, not because it wasn't notable.

Kirin13 (talk) 09:58, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Hey Kirin13, As far as the Olympics go, the best time or the best score is the most important since it decides the medals. Simple. And there are hundreds of firsts I can arbitrarily generate. Event commentators remark them? What about judging controversies in Sochi? I have never seen this controversial things in any sports before. So, this is also the first.

Rare ? In what sense ? ISU said that ?

Be objective and neutral. Every statistics is arguable. That is why there is OFFICIAL RECORDS ! Then it is neutral and clear. Right? We have to describe only OFFICIAL RECORDS if we want to come to an agreement. There is no argument. No problem with OFFICIAL RECORDS only.

If you want to talk about Guiness book records, do it in another wikipedia page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Heritoctavus (talk • contribs) 10:15, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If that triple axel is an olympic record, put CITATION that it is OFFICIAL olympic record. not Guiness something.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Heritoctavus (talk • contribs) 10:18, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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ISU keeps track of top ISU Judging System best scores. All other records and all firsts are not related to ISU judging. These include national first (e.g. Kim Yuna's medal is first figure skating medal for South Korea), youngest/oldest (e.g. Tara Lipinski is youngest ladies' gold medalist), jumping firsts (e.g. Midori Ito doing triple axel). So are Mao Asada's jumping records. There is no such thing as an "official Olympic record". And even if there was, Wikipedia doesn't require something to be 'official' (e.g. the ladies' singles controversy is not official as of right now). Wikipedia requires notability and reliability. I've already given you citations for notability and reliability. I've also explained that since it happened at this competition, that it should be included in this article.

At this point I would seek some form of Wikipedia mediation/dispute resolution. Third opinion comes to mind. However, since you are blocked indefinitely and third opinion requires civility from both editors (which you have failed to show), there isn't much of a point.

You mentioned the ladies' singles controversy: "What about judging controversies in Sochi? I have never seen this controversial things in any sports before." May I point you to 2010 Olympics controversy or 2002 Olympics scandal. This is just in figure skating since 2000. There have been hundreds of sports controversies bigger than the Sochi one.

Unrelated note - Heritoctavus, you reverted quite a few of my edits under the justification you want to talk. I have not seen you talk about any of those edits. All of those edits had an rational in the comments. At this time, I'm undoing your revert due to lack of explanation on your part.

Kirin13 (talk) 19:37, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Heritoctavus (talk), I have requested a third opinion. Kirin13 (talk) 20:18, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Only ISU official records which are registered in Olympic records are to be here." - I see no Wikipedia-based guideline that mandates this. --NeilN talk to me 23:04, 24 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Response to third opinion request:
I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on Figure skating at the 2010 Winter Olympics – Ladies' singles and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes.

As I understand it, there are two issues here: one is the mention of Asada's triple Axels; the other is the mention of some facts about Kim's history of records. I will adress these separately, but there is a principle that covers both: we may include facts that are relevant to the subject of the article, provided those facts can be verified in reliable sources. Wikipedia is not bound to restrict itself to "official" sources -- indeed we should not restrict ourselves in that way.

  • The first triple Axels by a woman are a considerable achievement and, in my view, should be mentioned in this article since they were achieved at this event. They are covered in reliable sources, but I would recommend that the citations in FN 8–11 be expanded to identify the source explicitly, so that we can all see at a glance that reliable sources are being used.
  • Heritoctavus asks: "what about other jumps described in Wikipedia?" and mentions double Axel and triple Lutz. I would suggest that these could be mentioned, not here, but in the articles describing the events where they were first performed, if that is known and documented in reliable sources. But even if we don't have that information, that should not stop us recording the information that we do have.
  • Regarding Kim's records, those that were achieved at this event should certainly be mentioned here. As to facts such as that Kim's record here was her 9th overall and 5th in the short event, although these facts are not directly about this event, they are useful to give context, and I believe quite strongly that they should be included for this reason.

I hope this helps you both. If I have failed to discuss any issue that I should have, please do say so here here. I will keep this on my watch list for a few days, and both of you are always welcome to ping me. Stfg (talk) 17:52, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Thank you Stfg for your review. I have expanded references 8-11. I've also added information on Kim Yuna's past records. I think listed all the records/firsts information on top is sufficient - it would be a bit much repeating it again in the short/free. Thoughts? Thanks, Kirin13 (talk) 19:35, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for doing that Kirin13. As to whether these things should be said again in the detailed results subsections, I'd prefer for you two and the other editors of the article to reach your own consensus on this if possible. I don't see a major issue of principle there. It may be wisest to treat Kim's records and Asada's triple Axels equally in this respect, though. (By the way, in the current version FN13 and 14 duplicate FN7 and 8.) --Stfg (talk) 21:40, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
ref's unduplicated Kirin13 (talk) 21:59, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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