Talk:Fascism/Archive 24

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Reorganise Political Spectrum section?

I think the Political Spectrum section would benefit from a bit of a reorgansiation along the following lines:

Rename as "Political classification" as political spectrum has a more specific meaning.
First explain that the long standing consensus among historians is that Fascism is an ideology of the far right but that this is disputed by Fascists themselves and by some others.
Then explain its self-identified position as a "third way" between Capitalism and Communism.
Finally explain the classification within two dimension political models (e.g. political compass, Political Spectrum, etc) which puts Fascism in the economic centre with its extremism manifesting itself on the authoritarianism axis instead.

I don't see any reason to include the specific claims that Fascism is an ideology of the left or far left. I am not aware of any reliable source that takes these claims seriously. I see them as little more than speculative suggestions recently being punted by far right groups and individuals in an attempt to distance themselves from association with historic fascist movements. Of course, if any reliable source does take this seriously then it should be mentioned.

I think this can be done mostly by juggling the existing paragraphs and simplifying a bit. Normally I would just dive in, but I know that this article is a minefield, so I thought I should check here first.

--DanielRigal (talk) 14:53, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

There have been no howls of outrage at the suggestion and recent edits have been in a similar direction so I am going to make a few changes along these lines. --DanielRigal (talk) 15:34, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Gosh it has only been a day! I am very suspicious of any use of "poltical spectrum" as it means different things in different countries at different times. If we have verifiable sources tht identify Fascism within the Italian political spectrum in the 1920s I am all for using that. In general, to avoid violating WP:NOR we should follow the sources: when they speak of a spectrum, use it, but make clear it is a particular and definable view. I know that scholars of comparative politics more often use classifications than spectrums and their views definitely must be included. This is not a matter of style, it is a matter of representing significant views. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:50, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Talk about premature! There is NO fully accepted position of "fascism" on the left-right spectrum, and I would suggest the current wording was quite correct. Thanks! Collect (talk) 16:52, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, that there is "no fully accepted position" is neither here nor there. Wikipedia's standard for inclusion is certainly not that a position be "fully accepted." Our standard for inclusion is all signficiant views from notable sources. If you have a historian or political scientist who is a notable expert on Italian Fascism and who wrote in a peer-reviewed journal article or book published by an academic press that Fascism is "far left," we include this view. If we have another expert saying that it is "far right," we add that too. We do not need for their positions to be "fully accepted;" NPOV encourages multiple points of view. Of course, we do have to distinguish between mainstream, majority, and minority views or make clear when there is a conflict among scholars. It is not premature to raise the issue if you have verifiable sources. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:17, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

IOW, the first sentence should state the gamut, leaving specific claims to later sentences in the section. And with a good reliable source stating that the gamut exists (as is the case), using that as the first sentence makes sense. Trying to fit each and every claim, and saying "usually" in order to give one position greater weight is less sensible indeed. Collect (talk) 17:26, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed! Slrubenstein | Talk 18:39, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I am concerned by the use of "left, right and centre" (although it wasn't me who changed it) because it gives equivalent billing to "left", which seems to me to be a fringe view, to that of "right", which is the most common classification to the point of orthodoxy in common usage, and "centre", which is more in keeping with the view of the fascists themselves. I don't have access to the reference. Does it really support such a wording giving all three views equivalence? The use of "usually" as a way to acknowledge that one view is more widely held but that other views exist seems to be perfectly clear, valid and honest use of the word. I know it is a word that has a lot of weasel potential but it isn't always evil.

I have reviewed the political spectrum article a bit more carefully and I now understand that it is a better term than the one I used in the opening paragraph as it encompasses all techniques for modelling political positions. I had previously misunderstood it as something more specific. I would still argue however that the section title should be either "Political classification" or maybe "Position within the political spectrum". It just seems to make more sense when you look at the TOC than "Political spectrum" on its own. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:54, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

It does not matter one bit what any of us think of "left" "right" or "center." All that matters is what significant views in notable sources say. If a notable political scientist uses the word "left," it goes into the article. If a notable historian says "right," it goes into the article. I say this with respect, but your concerns about the spectrum are not appropriate or relevant. The only concern is this (1) does the body of the article adequatey represent all significant views found in notable sources and (2) does the introduction to the article adequately introduce the body. If these are your real concerns, great, that is constructive. otherwise, they are not constructive. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:08, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Please note that it was not me who replaced "left, right and centre" in the first place. I am not trying to make contentious edits without discussion. I think that wp:undue should guide us here. We do not want to over represent (or under-represent) any views. I am also a little concerned by the use of "centre" as it seems that the fascist concept of the "third way" is not always meant to imply "centre". I am happy to admit to being a little out of my depth here. That is why I asked if the references on that paragraph supported the phrase "left, right and centre" being used with apparent equivalence. If the answer is "yes" then I am more than happy with that. Anyway, can we at least agree on something minor to improve the article? Are we happy with the section being renamed "Political classification" (without changing its content)? --DanielRigal (talk) 22:10, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Good points. it is always fair to ask for more information about, and context from, the sources, and the other editor has the burden to reply in an informative manner. if your concerns are just triggers to get more sources or more info about the sources we have, that is a good thing! I felt your comments were a bit vague though; do you feel there are no sources provided, inadequate or inappropriate sources, or sources provided without enough context? Slrubenstein | Talk 03:12, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I looked up the sources and found the following:

The statement "it has been described as left, right and center" is given two sources:

1) Social Science and Political Theory states: "One of the most interesting analyses of this is an essay by Professor Lipset entitled 'Fascism -- Left, Right and Center'" (p.150).

2)The Fascist Reader reference is from a chapter by Lipset called "Fascism as 'extremism' of the middle class". (p.112). It appears that this article is the same as the one referred to in Social Science.

Finally the Wikipedia article states (later in the section) "Seymour Martin Lipset sees fascism as "extremism of the center" which is sourced to Russian Fascism That book merely says "Lipset sees fascism as extremism of the center". (p.14).

You can read Lipset's "Fascism -- Left, Right, and Center" which is chapter V of his book Political Man: The Social Bases of Politics on Questia. Lipset did not put fascism on the right because fascists did not intend to restore monarchial and aristocratic privilege. Its middle class origins put it in the center (along with social liberalism and libertarianism).

So the sources do not in fact support the statement "it has been described as left, right and center", just that Lipset thought it was part of the center. The Austrian view of fascism as socialism does not put it on the left either. Hayek called it a "union of the anti-capitalist forces of the right and the left in The Road to Serfdom(p.173). And conservatives have also been called socialists, e.g., Bismarck's "State Socialism" or Disraeli's "Tory Socialism".

I have not read any academic or even popular writing that puts it on the left.

The Four Deuces (talk) 00:41, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Bear in mind that there is NO agreement by scholars on where generic fascism stands on the political spectrum. Radical or far right, third position, and extreme centre are the most common claims. One of the biggest problems is that when most people speak of "far-right", they are speaking a common misnomer as they are meaning "reactionary" - that is a movement which is expressly anti-liberal, anti-socialist, often anti-libertarian, often anti-modernist, often anti-secular, often in favour of government's with strong authoity and is associated with traditional conservative values. Far-right is a bad use of terms because economically the fascists did not advocate far-right economics, which is described by most as laissez-faire and on the issue of reactionaries, not all of them are laissez-faire proponents either.--R-41 (talk) 04:32, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

On the term "reactionary" to describe fascism, Mussolini indeed once described the fascist movement as reactionary, but while Mussolini and the Fascists declared that they were reactionary towards existing traditional politics of that time in that they rejected them, BUT Mussolini declared that Italian Fascism was also revolutionary in that it was not solely interested in looking backward to restore pre-Enlightenment values as reactionaries promote, but that Fascism was interested in combining what elements it appreciated of society (including a number of ideas which reactionaries would agree with) combined a new forward-looking agenda of making one's nation or race powerful through the direction of the state, forging a new culture based upon a national and racial unity and sense of family, and lastly promoting social darwinist values of strength and militarist values of courage. Many of these latter revolutionary ideals cannot be accredited to reactionaries as Lenin's Bolshevik movement held similar views of progress for workers through state direction, forging a new society based on worker-based societies, and also promoting that working people be strong and courageous. Italian Fascism in my mind and in the minds of a number of scholars including I believe Stanley Payne, claim that Fascism was always a combination of reactionary and revolutionary ideas. I see this balancing act as part of fascism's inherent desire to create national unity by tackling the issue of finding a means to avoid class conflict and various sectarian conflict that may arise - this means that under a fascist state, the nation's working classes must be satisfied to avoid agitating workers while at the same time the nation's business people must be satisfied so that the nation's economic capacity is not hindered, fascists appealed to a number of traditional social values to avoid splitting society, such as by trying to bind national and religious values together. Some of these values were very favourable towards reactionaries but one must bear in mind that policies combining nationalism, social darwinism, class collaboration, traditional social values, and significant state intervention were considered "progressive" in for many years in the 19th century and early 20th century. Fascism by today's standards looks very regressive and reactionary due to the advent of the spread of egalitarianism in progressive politics during the 20th century to present. If one looks at fascism from an egalitarian progressive perspective, it's social darwinist views are very regressive and reactionary. But in the 1920s, Italian Fascists and Nazis in promoting social darwinism were crossing the line of alienating social conservatives - particularly religious communities, enough to the point that Italian Fascism turned to focus on spiritual evolution of nations and races rather than biological evolution to avoid sparring with the Roman Catholic Church over the issue of Creationism. Meanwhile the Nazis were less conciliatory towards religious conservatives as they constantly promoted biological racialism which caused them to be scorned by the Roman Catholic Church. To sum up above what I believe Fascism can be identified as having the following components in reviewing the political spectrum:

(1) Reactionary to liberalism, individualism, egalitarianism, class conflict, communism. Reactionary in promotion of preserving traditional social values deemed beneficial for the nation or race and opposing certain modern values deemed to threaten those traditional social values deemed detrimental to the nation or race.
(2) Progressive (for early to mid 20th century standards) or anti-reactionary in terms of social welfare, collectivism, social darwinism (i.e. Darwinism's inherent challenge to religious notions of Creationism, challenging reactionary's promotion of the value of nobility through social darwinism's views of evolution, competition, and conflict as a means to promote meritocracy - especially utilized by fascists to promote military service) and
(3) Centrist in regards to class politics by promoting class collaboration, either centrist or centre-right in regards to property rights (i.e. protecting the right of property and promoting private enterprise as the most efficient form of business enterprise, while allowing the government the right to intervene and take over private property at its own discretion)

--R-41 (talk) 04:32, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Before arguing where fascism fits on the political spectrum it is important to understand how scholars, including Lipset and Hayek understood it. Right-centre-left meant aristocratic-middle class-working class. Fascists are generally understood as right-wing because they emphasized tradition and collaborated with European elites. Hayek however would agree with you that they combined left-working class (progressive) and right-aristocratic (reactionary). Finally Lipset states that they were middle class and therefore centrist. But Hayek and Lipset are in the minority. The statement "There is disagreement on the position of fascism in the political spectrum; it has been described as left, right and center" is misleading because it gives undue weight to Lipset's opinion and there is no evidence that anyone describes it as left. Hayek's opinion should not be given undue weight either because it is taken from a polemical work. A more accurate statement would be "While fascism is generally considered to be on the right of the political spectrum, there are alternative views."

Another political spectrum that might be used is the modern American left (liberal) vs right (conservative), but I do not know of any studies that try to place fascism in the modern American spectrum.

Lipset's article explains the political spectrum and Hayek provided a good description in "Why I am not a Conservative." http://www.fahayek.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46

The Four Deuces (talk) 18:03, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

In short, you amply demonstrate that there is, in fact, disagreement about the very applicability of a "left-right" spectrum. "But Hayek and Lipset are in the minority" is OR at best. [1] refers to "left wing fascism." [2] speaks of "left wing Fascists." [3] refers to "left-wing fascism." [4] says "the popular definition of fascism as right wing is misleading." [5] and a slew of others -- not just Hayek and Lipset, to be sure. Thus using the broadest statement at the start, and then having other opinions following, is the proper course in WP. Collect (talk) 21:56, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I do not see that any of the texts are helpful. [9]Horowitz borrowed his use of the term "left-wing" from Lenin and it does not mean he thinks of fascism as "left-wing". He uses Left-wing fascism to apply to groups like the Larouche movement, which are not usually considered to be fascist, and he is not referring to the fascism of Mussolini, Hitler, or Franco. His point is they use left-wing rhetoric to express fascist ideas. [10]Wilkinson's book refers to left-wing people who had supported fascism but later opposed it because it was right-wing. [11] Pound referred to a left-wing of the fascist party which is similar to Hayek's view. [12]Farrell acknowledges that the "popular definition of fascism is right-wing", that Mussolini called it right-wing and that its "manifestations became" "right wing". He merely states that many fascists leaders had been left-wing and that it had left-wing influences. [13]Eysenck states that fascism is "not consistently right-wing" (p.85). I think that "left-wing Fascism on page 86 is a reference to Stalin, who is normally not considered to be a fascist.

All this proves that "fascism is generally considered to be on the right of the political spectrum", it contains elements from both left and right, Lipset thinks it's centrist and no one places it on the left.

By the way, I do not know what you mean by "there is, in fact, disagreement about the very applicability of a "left-right" spectrum"

The Four Deuces (talk) 00:43, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I think what user Collect is speaking of the claims of some fascists like the British Union of Fascists of saying that they were "neither left or right". Furthermore some scholars have claimed that fascists variated on the political spectrum. Fascist's focal axis point (no pun with Axis powers intended) was based on nationalism versus internationalism or anti-nationalism rather than left-wing versus right-wing. Fascists distained the ideology of communism for its anti-nationalist and class revolutionary views which fascists saw as destructive to the unity of a nation. Fascists distained liberalism for its focus on individualism rather than a national collective. What boggles the mind of some historians who want to pin-point where fascism is on the political spectrum is that they do not recognize that fascism was a coalition of nationalist political forces from across the spectrum - in Italian Fascism, some like Mussolini were ex-socialists, others were ex-anarchists, some were reactionary anti-liberals and anti-socialists. What combined them together was a militant form of nationalism. Goebbels in 1938, claimed that authoritarian nationalism was the ultimate replacement for liberalism and Marxism.--R-41 (talk) 01:45, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

A person reading the "Political spectrum" section sees "There is disagreement on the position of fascism in the political spectrum; it has been described as left, right and center." There is also disagreement over whether man evolved from apes, smoking causes cancer, blacks are equal to whites, HIV causes AIDS and lots of other subjects. We can all believe what we want. But it is totally misleading to give equal credence to the theory that fascism is on the right (accepted by most scholars), fascism is in the centre (accepted by one scholar), fascism is on the left (accepted by no scholars) or fascism is outside the spectrum (claimed by fascists). The fact that most scholars may be wrong is irrelevant - the article should tell the readers what the generally accepted opinion is. And use references properly - the reference given for this sentence is the lone writer who puts fascism in the centre!

By all means differing opinions should be given. But don't claim that they have equal acceptance without any evidence. These articles are supposed to inform people of generally accepted views not our personal opinions no matter how valid.

The Four Deuces (talk) 07:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Alas you are asserting that a vast number of authors are wrong because they apply "fascist" to groups you think are not "fascist" hence they are wrong about asserting that using a "political spectrum" does not work. I would point out that the sentence of "left right and center" does not represent my personal view, but is is my view, and that of a great many experts, that there is "disagreement" which is the claim made. Unless you can state that there is NO disagreement, it is clear that the sentence is precisely accurate and a valid lead to the rest of the paragraph which has the differing opinions stated succinctly. Thanks! Collect (talk) 11:58, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

WRT "straw man" you assert "NO scholars" say fascism can be on the left. Alas -- that is a false claim on your part. And using the parallels you claim which are discussable as "scientif fact" the fact is that "political spectrum: is not a "scientific fact" nor is ever likely to be "scientific fact." Collect (talk) 12:01, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I did not say that no scholars say fascism can be on the left, but that no scholars say that fascism is on the left. It is not even clear that scholars who use the term "left-wing fascism" are implying that it is on the left, merely that it uses left-wing rhetoric. In any case there is nothing in this article about left-wing fascism. I am not saying that these writers are wrong, merely that their views are not generally accepted. One of your quotes above says, "the popular definition of fascism as right wing is misleading." Why do you not want the article to inform people what the popular view is? I suggest that you read the articles you are citing and understand their contents, before using them. The Four Deuces (talk) 17:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I am about to say something long and complicated for which I am often criticized for, but I believe it will help you, The Four Deuces in recognizing that claims of fascism being staunchly right-wing are inaccurate. Bear in mind that I am a social democrat, so I have nothing to gain or promote by showing that fascism has strong leftist tendencies, but I do so out of an honest review of multiple sources and arguments. Mussolini, prominant Italian Fascist Roberto Farinacci, British Fascist Oswald Mosley, Nazi Ernst Rohm, and Joseph Goebbels, all had at one point socialist or leftist roots, connections, or beliefs. Some changed drastically, but all came to fervently believe in nationalism as an ideology to solve national problems. Italian Fascism was originally strongly left-wing and progressive as described in the Fascist manifesto (i.e. anti-monarchist and republican, anti-clerical, anti-business and pro-labour combined with nationalism, anti-communism, anti-internationalism, and anti-socialism) but it wasn't drawing in the anti-communist and anti-socialist support that Mussolini wanted, so he opportunistically started to try and draw in reactionary and indeed right-wing support by toning down his rhetoric, sacrificing anti-business rhetoric for a compromise class collaboration between business people and labourers through negotiating in a political system called corporatism, sacrificing anti-monarchist rhetoric for toleration of the monarchy, sacrificing anti-clericalism and becoming pro-religious, and lastly sacrificing calls for national egalitarianism for all Italian men and women for a compromise social darwinist and traditionalist patriarchial ideal that men and women had to prove their worth in society and that men and women had defined roles in society (i.e. woman as a mother and caretaker of a family and a man as a warrior, provider, and protector of the nation and families). These concessions were necessary for the Fascists to gain a wider populist support and it succeeded. In 1922, Mussolini rose to power not yet as a dictator of a single-party state but as the head of a fractious coalition of fascists, liberals, and nationalists to oppose the socialists and communists, as a pragmatic opportunist, Mussolini's first three years as Prime Minister were indeed economically right-leaning because he had to gain the support of classical liberals in parliament in order for them to support his government, so he appointed a non-fascist liberal, Alberto De Stefani as finance minister of Italy in 1922 who promoted laissez-faire economics and free trade. But after working to undermine political oppositon with the Acerbo law and the Matteoti crisis, Mussolini in 1925 declared Italy a single party state with him as dictator of the government on behalf of the King and promptly banned all opposition, kicked De Stefani out of his cabinet, and from that point on began to promote large state-planned economic initiatives and protectionism like the Battle for Grain to make Italy self-sufficient in grain and not dependent on foreign sources of grain from Canada and the United States, the Italian Fascists nationalized multiple private petroleum companies which were not being profitable in the private sector into a single government-run petroleum company called Azienda Generale Italiana Petroli, AGIP (General Company of Italian Petroleum), which still exists today. Italian Fascism promoted economic assistance to failing companies during the Great Depression through the Istituto per la Ricostruzione Industriale, economic "bailout" policies were sharply criticized then and are sharply criticized now by the economic right-wing laissez-faire proponents as being too far to the left in their view (but unlike neoconservative critics claim "ah, modern liberals look like they have fascist economics", I in addition note that social conservatives like George W. Bush have utilized massive state-interventionism in the economy and classical conservatives such as John A. MacDonald in my country of Canada utilized large state interventionism long before the advent of fascism and before communism was a serious political force in the world. Italian Fascists even tried to combine conservative and leftist views to claim that they promote traditional national and patriotic values while at the same time claiming that they are modernist i.e. promoting a "New Roman Empire", promoting traditional Roman-like and Christian art while also promoting modern art which promoted the movement as futurist while having symbols of ancient Roman idenity like the fasces, the Aquila (the Roman eagle), Capitoline Wolf, etc. The merging of nationalism with a combined leftist and reactionary critiques of liberalism and laissez-faire capitalism was pursued from the mid 1920s onward, blamed liberalism's protection of multiparty democracy as causing political instability, corruption, and lack of political progress; and blamed liberalism and laissez-faire capitalism for being uncaring to nations which the Italian Fascists claimed caused the rise of communism and class conflict which in their view were destroying nations. In the light of economic troubles, corruption, and perceived social stagnation or decline under classical liberal governments which had dominated Italy since the 1870s and the advent of the international economic crisis following the Stock Market Crash of 1929, so by 1929 Fascism's anti-liberal critiques from social, political, and economic standpoints were enormously popular and as hyped through propaganda were very convincing to Italians and gained attention elsewhere in the world. It should be noted that fascists, classical and religious conservatives, and leftists share a common rebuke of what they see as a problem of a literal liberalism of laissez-faire's promotion of unrestrained individual economic accumulation. They all see unrestrained self-indulgence as reckless or who were a strong political force in the 19th to mid-20th centuries and perhaps returning in the recent international economic crisis, believe that unrestrained self-indulgence and having unearned luxuries is selfish, uncaring to others, and morally wrong. All these groups claim that self-restraint, that people should not have excessive and unearned personal luxuries, and that people should have a sense of care for a community rather than self-interest. Some claim that fascism's appeal to class collaboration and its large base of middle-class supporters indicates absolutely that it is reactionary - this is a fallous argument, a significant number of working-class people did join the Italian Fascists and in the case of Germany, the Nazis, but they were not a clear majority due to fascism's class collaborationist appeals. I have found articles mentioning police reports of the Nazis which show that the Nazis were posing a serious threat to depleting democratic socialist and communist parties' base of working-class supporters. This demonstrates that the combination of appeal through nationalism to classical, religious, reactionary, and social conservatives along with leftism is politically possible and that neither totally exclude each other. And please don't just take my word for it, look through books about classical conservatism, religious conservatism, and now to mention it, national conservatism you will find these common grounds between conservatism and leftism which fascism appealed to.--R-41 (talk) 00:24, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I am not saying that fascism is staunchly right wing, just that it is normally placed on the right. The most obvious reason for putting them on the right is that they aligned themselves with unequivocally right-wing groups opposed to Communists and Socialists, and once in power advanced the interests of the elites. The Socialist background of leading fascists is important as is their incorporation of socialist ideas and tactics. But most fascist leaders did not begin as leftists and as you point out non-leftists from Macdonald to Bush have tried socialist solutions. Similarly, successful conservatives from Disraeli to Thatcher have been able to appeal to the working class. And fascism has been most successful in countries with a strong authoritarian right-wing tradition.

No scholars place fascism on the left. If you have a source for any claim that fascism is left-wing then it should be added to the article.

One scholar however placed fascism in the center. I don't know how much weight this deserves, has anyone re-examined this theory since 1960?

But does any of what you are I have written support the statement: "There is disagreement on the position of fascism in the political spectrum; it has been described as left, right and center"? which implies that learned opinion is equally divided.

The Four Deuces (talk) 19:26, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

No scholars? What is Horiwitz? Chopped liver? Bale? I have provided cites which directly contradict your absolute assertions, thank you most kindly. Collect (talk) 19:45, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Horowitz and Bale quotes

I removed the following until someone can provide context and explain what he really means.

Irving Louis Horowitz writes of "the new left-wing Fascism" with anti-Semitism as the "essential motor." <ref>Winners and Losers: Social and Political Polarities in America - By Irving Louis Horowitz ,Duke University Press, 1984, ISBN 0822306026 ,328 pages, page 214</ref>

My hunch is that he is using the term fascism to describe left-wing critics of Israel, with the implication that they are motivated by a hatred of Jews, not concerns about human rights. Feel free to provide the relevant text if he is discussing actual fascism, and not merely using the term as a smear.Spylab (talk) 14:56, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Nope. And deletion of a RS by a person who actually has his own WP article is odd. Your "hunch" is wrong, which means that the cite gets returned. Thanks! Collect (talk) 17:56, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

And per discussion above -- "left, right and center" is directly supported by the cite given for it. Please try to get a consensus before making such wholesale changes. Especially since you appear to refuse to accept the disagreement as to the po,litical spectrum, deleting a solid cite for use of "left wong." Thanks! Collect (talk) 18:04, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

So what's the context of the Horowitz quote? What does he actually say about this so-called "left-wing fascism". As it stands, the sentence doesn't explain anything.Spylab (talk) 18:07, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I quoted the source. I quoted a sufficiency to prove the accuracy of the claim made for the source. I gave the page number. And you insist on a "hunch" that he did not mean what he wrote? He has an entire chapter on "Left-Wing Fascism" for gosh sakes <g>. 11 pages on the topic. Enough already. Collect (talk) 18:26, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

This is what you added to the article:

Irving Louis Horowitz writes of "the new left-wing Fascism" with anti-Semitism as the "essential motor."

Please add some context and explain what it actually means. What is this "new left-wing Fascism", and who are its supporters? The sentence on its own lacks substance and is wide open for misinterpretation. It's not very useful to say someone "writes of" something without clarifying what he writes about it.Spylab (talk) 18:38, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The same applies to the other sentence you added:

Jeffrey Bale writes on "'National Groupuscules' and the Resurgence of 'Left-Wing' Fascism" in "Fascism: Critical Concepts in Political Science."

Please provide context and meaning.Spylab (talk) 18:43, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

MULTIPLE PAGE ARTICLES and you seem to think an entire chapter can be "out of context"?? I will gladly provide more examples of scholars refgerring to "left wing fascism" -- and when they devote LARGE amounts of paper to the term, one would suspect they used the term quite deliberately <g>. Unless, of course, you would like 3,000 word "quotes" here? Collect (talk) 19:07, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

So what do they actually say? Please summarize their arguments, instead of listing even more quotes without context or meaning. It shouldn't be difficult to explain in a sentence or two, assuming you actually read and understood the articles. Lots of people "speak of" or "write of" things, but without knowing what they actually say, it doesn't do much good to mention it, expecially in an encyclopedic article that is supposed to teach people about a complex political topic.Spylab (talk) 19:22, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Collect: In reply to your comment in the previous section, neither Horowitz nor Bale said that fascism is left-wing. Their use of that adjective does not mean they think fascism is left-wing or even that "left-wing fascists" are on the left, any more than the name "South Dakota" identifies it as a southern state. On the contrary, Bale calls the "left-wing fascist" Nouvelle Resistance (NR), which is the subject of his article, a "rightist political organization" (p.282). The Four Deuces (talk) 22:21, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Each specifically devoted extensive commentary to "left wing fascism." Not just a single quote. Collect (talk) 23:32, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

And your point is? The Four Deuces (talk) 23:46, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The point is that the two used terminology which is quite specific. The attempt at SYMN made is not only a misuse of the cites, it violates WP policies. Thanks! Collect (talk) 12:39, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I see. So what you're saying, Collect, is that you don't understand the context or meaning of the term left-wing fascism as used by those two authors. You just know that they both used the term, a lot. So what?Spylab (talk) 13:29, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Try reading the full chapters Spy before asserting what is not borne out by these cites. Thanks! Collect (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The new left-wing fascists are modern fascists who use left-wing rhetoric to hide right-wing beliefs. An example is claiming to be anti-zionist when they are actually anti-semitic. The rightist Nouvelle Resistance is one such group. Would that be a fair assessment of what Horowiz and Bale are saying? The Four Deuces (talk) 20:32, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

So you admit, Collect, that you have no clue about what Horowitz and Bale actually mean when they use the term left-wing fascism. Why do you insist that concepts you can't explain be included in this Wikipedia article?Spylab (talk) 00:39, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok, Collect, you added a few examples of so-called "left-wing fascists", but still no definition of so-called "left-wing fascism", and no real context. Let's take a look at the examples:

Massimiliano Fanchin - no Wikipedia article, arrested in connection with an unspecified bombing in Bologna. Who is he, and what did he stand for?
Franco Fredo - no Wikipedia article. Who is he and what did he stand for?
Frankfurt School, a Marxist school of thought. What is its supposed connection to fascism, other than analyzing, explaining and criticizing it?
Theodor W. Adorno, a Marxist from the Frankfurt School. What is his supposed connection to fascism, other than analyzing, explaining and criticizing it?
Christian Bouchet - a member of the Third Position neo-fascist movement. However, it's quite the leap in logic to use that fact to claim that fascism is somehow on the left of the political spectrum. If that's not what you're arguing, then why mention it in the section about fascism's place in the political spectrum?Spylab (talk) 14:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

You improperly added WP:OR and WP:SYN to the statements for which precise cites were given. You also made a claim that a cite referred to Fanchin when it does not do so. I am not claiming that all fascism is on the left, I AM saying that there is disagreement about where it is, and disagreement about whether all forms of fascism are at the smae point on the spectrum. I use WP:V which is the guideline for cites, and it does not say to add material to sentences which is NOT in the cite given. And the cites given for Bale and Horowitz fully meet WP:RS and WP:V. Thanks! Collect (talk) 01:30, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Left, right and center

Collect: the footnotes don't seem to support this statement: "There is disagreement on the position of fascism in the political spectrum; it has been described as left, right and center.[33] [34]" If you follow them they refer to an article by Lipset, called 'Fascism -- Left, Right and Center', where he argues that fascism is centrist. Is there any reason why you are citing this source? The Four Deuces (talk) 15:03, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The article uses the precise term "left, right and center" as is claimed for the cite. Collect (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Although the title of Lipset's article uses the term "Left, Right and Center", his article does not say, "There is disagreement on the position of fascism in the political spectrum; it has been described as..." What are your sources for that part of the sentence? Why not instead write "Lipset wrote an article called "Fascism -- Left, Right and Center""? Would that have the same meaning? The Four Deuces (talk) 18:20, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The quote of "left, right and center" accurately denotes the fact that there is disagreement on any single term for fascism on the political spectrum. Also re" Horowitz in "winners and Losers" page 210 "Like all movements, left-wing fascism has a somewhat chaotic ancestry. Foremost is what might be called the later Frankfurt school, which emphasized in an uneasy mix the early Marx and the late Hegel ..." et seq. [6] "(The Persopnist movement) was a populism, if not a fasicsm, of left, right and center all at the same time." Currently Putin in Russia is not a "communist" but is decidely an "authoritarian nationalist" who wishes to restore the past glory of Russia -- what would you call him? Collect (talk) 20:58, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I think there are two things we need to be careful about here that will help resolve conflicts. First, we need to distinguish between self-identified fascists and people who are called fascists by others but who do not call themselves fascists. I make no other claims, just that these are different and the article must not mix them up. Second, we need to distinguish between "fascism" as a rhetorical device that can be applied to a range of phenomena, and specific historically (and often geographically) located fascisms. For example Horowitz clearly is not talking about Moussolini's Fascist party or regime. Moreover, Horowitz and Mussolini would agree Mussolini was a Fascist; this is uncontroversial. But Horkheimer and Adorno would vociferously insist they were opposed to Fascism, so the claim that they were Fascists in this case is controversial. These distinctions are essential if we are to distinguish between mainstream and fringe views. I am certain that the videw that Mussolini was a Fascist is a mainstream view. I am sure that the view that Adorno was a Fascist is not a mainstream view. Now I just want to know: is it a minority view or a fringe view? Slrubenstein | Talk 01:24, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that Horowitz sees Horkheimer and Odorno as influences on left-wing fascism not as actual fascists. At the beginning of the article he identifies Larouche's groups as left-wing fascists. While Horowitz's article is mostly about influences, Bale's article gives details of a specific case, the NR. The Four Deuces (talk) 13:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

IOW, "left wing fascism" is a real phenomenon acording to both Bale and Horowitz, right? Collect (talk) 14:21, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Right. The Four Deuces (talk) 23:40, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I wish that people had of paid attention to what I had said earlier. But I will repeat: fascists were composed of both reactionary and leftist nationalists, who mutually united in support of irredentist and expansionist nationalism. Please look up "Intransigent fascist" and you will find information about the left-wing faction of the Italian Fascist movement which was the original base of the Fascist movement which called for the overthrow of the Italian monarchy and the establishment of a republic, called for strengthening workers' rights, called for weakening the power of the Roman Catholic Church and power of aristocrats. The Intransigents opposed the reactionary faction of the fascists which promoted cooperation with the monarchy, the Church, and aristocrats. Mussolini played a balancing act between the two factions, he appeased reactionaries by respecting the monarchy, the Church, and aristocrats while he appeased the Intransigents by weakening the power of the monarchy by transferring the power to appoint cabinet ministers from the King to the Prime Minister (Mussolini) and creating the military position of "First Marshal of the Empire" given to both the King and Prime Minister which meant that the King lost his previous exclusive authority to authorize military action and now had to discuss such actions with Mussolini. After Mussolini was overthrown in 1943, Mussolini appealed to Intransigent fascists who remained loyal to him when he formed the Italian Social Republic and adopted Intransigent fascist left-wing policies, including large-scale nationalization of property, as well as persecution of northern landowners who Mussolini felt had betrayed him during his overthrow in 1943. A great source for information on Italian Fascism and especially the internal rivalry between the reactionary and the leftist Intransigent factions of the Italian Fascist movement is the Historical Dictionary of Fascist Italy, ISBN 0-313-21317-8 by Philip V. Cannistraro, 1982. This source discusses indepth on the fact that Italian Fascism was always divided between these two factions who competed with each other to influence Mussolini, who himself tried to balance the interests of both sides.--R-41 (talk) 23:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

R-41: I am paying attention. Perhaps you could assist with the wording of the introductory sentence to the "Political spectrum" section which states:

There is disagreement on the position of fascism in the political spectrum; it has been described as left, right and center.

Do you think this is an accurate statement? Do you think that the footnotes support this statement? How would you phrase it? The Four Deuces (talk) 07:34, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Ideally the first sentence in a section should give a summary of what is in the section, much as the lede does for an article. Cites are given for each word used, and, in a serendipitous use, one cite is given for the actual phrase used. One remaining problem is that "fascuism" is not a single cohesive political philosophy as defined by any article, and we allow the term to get further muddied by adding sections on sex and the like which are clearly handled differently by different nations. Collect (talk) 11:54, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Collect. Thanks for adding the Linehan reference. He does not actually say that fascism "has been described as left, right and center", but that the "dispute amongst historians...overlaps with another contentious area of scholarship, the question of whether fascism was an ideology of the right, left or centre". This may seem similar, but he does not claim that any scholars consider fascism a left-wing ideology and provides no examples that they do. The statement fascism "has been described as left, right and center" is entirely inconsistent with what is found in the literature, which is probably why it took so long to find even this reference (from a book about British Fascism). The Four Deuces (talk) 17:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Again -- I sm not asserting that "fascism" is in any one position on the political spectrum, and that is the point. Various "fascisms" have occupoied quite different positions on the political spectrum, thus saying "fascism" isin oneposition is quite problematic. IMHO the concept of "authoritarian nationalism" exists apart from the "political spectrum" issue -- Putin is, again IMHO, an "authoritarian nationalist." Collect (talk) 18:00, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

The phrase "has been described as left, right and center" implies that it can only occupy "one position on the political spectrum". Why are you bringing Putin into this - he is not even mentioned in the article? The Four Deuces (talk) 18:46, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Nope. I interpret it to mean that any given example may be left, right, or center. Note that it does not say "left, right AND center for all fascisms" in any case. And examples follow in the paragraph after that sentence. As fr Putin, I consider him to precisely fit the definitions given in the article. Can you tell me where his actions and positions are contrary to the definitions given? Collect (talk)

In that case why does the sentence say "There is disagreement on the position of fascism in the political spectrum?" And why are you talking about Peron, Putin and Francin (as opposed to Hitler, Mussolini and Franco) in the Political spectrum section when they are mentioned nowhere else in the article? The Four Deuces (talk) 11:51, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

It says "disagreement" because there is disagreement. And since it does not say all fascism is at any one point on the spectrum (or if a spectrum is even relevant) then I do not see the problem. And the fact is that the talk page is for improving the article, and giving examples here makes it possible to improve the article. Clear? Thanks! Collect (talk) 11:57, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

What is the disagreement? The Four Deuces (talk) 12:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Some learned historians place differing groups of fascists on the left, on the right, and in the center. There is not an agreement tht all fascists are in one spot, hence there is a "DISagreement" on that issue. "Disagreement" means that they do not all "agree." Thanks! Collect (talk) 12:25, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Is there any way you can expand the sentence to reflect that view? Not everyone may read the existing sentence to have the meaning that you have described. Maybe it should read: "There is disagreement on the position of fascism in the political spectrum. Not all historians place all fascists in one spot. Some historians place differing groups of fascists on the left, on the right and in the center. The Four Deuces (talk) 22:19, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Or: "Historians do not place all fascists in the same position on the political spectrum - groups have been placed left, right and center, or not in the spectrum at all. " Which keeps the phrase from the cite, clearly states not all are in one place, and adds the fact that some seem to place some examples entirely outside any spectrum. (keeping same cites) Collect (talk) 22:27, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Added that fascism was a "radical" authoritarian nationalist movement

I get the feeling that many people feel that the intro is missing something, I've noticed that some editors claim that fascism is "extreme right" while other editors claim its "extreme left". Yet they both failed to recognize that their divided views on the subject overlooked their common agreement of it being in their view "extreme". I believe that the word "extreme" is a subjective word, but the word "radical" is accurate to depict the fascists' nationalist views. "authoritarian nationalism" alone seemed a little too narrow, but when described as "radical authoritarian nationalism", this clarifies that that a government which adopts a single nationalist measure that may be authoritarian may be similar to fascism but does not equate to fascism, as the very strong devotion that fascists carry to such authoritarian nationalism.--R-41 (talk) 04:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I am unsure about that -- many sources state that a "political spectrum" is very poorly suited for discussin fascism. Indeed, some put it in the center --- and many sources not look at multi-dimensional forms of dtermining political position. I think perhaps it is best to use the attributes of fascism in a dispassionate manner rather than spending excessive time counting the angels on the head of that pin <g>. Are we fairly well settled on what the attributes in common with each example are? Collect (talk) 22:46, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I finished high school, Collect, but I have no idea what you are talking about. The Four Deuces (talk) 06:36, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

"Political spectrum" posits a one-dimmensional (straight line) view of political positions. Many sources now posit 2 or more dimensions -- [7], [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] and a slew of others. What we have, I thought, determined was that fascism is "authoritarian nationalist" as the common core values. This appears to be a general agreement? "Radical" refers going to the "root" of something -- and I am unsure that all fascists would consider themselves "radical" at all. Indeed, some appear to think they are returning to the glories of the past of a nation, and we might as well add "irredentist" to the list of adjectives at that point. Collect (talk) 12:04, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

To the User:The Four Deuces, please do not be impolite toward User:Collect, you did not have to say "I finished high school,...but I have no idea what you are talking about." Please be more polite, and just say something like "I do not understand what you said, could you please explain." To User:Collect, I should point out that radical is seen as an element in fascism. The very definition of radicalism as going to the "root" of something is exactly what one fascist, Plinio Salgado of Brazil said, "Strong governments cannot result either from conspiracies of from military coups, just as they cannot come out of the machinations of parties or the Machiavellian game of political lobbying. They can only be born from the actual roots of the Nation." This quote is in the text of this article under the subsection "Nationalism". Historian Stanley Payne who has written a number of important works on fascism described the origin of the term "fascist" as being derived from the "radical nationalist movement of the Fasci Italiani di Combattimento".[13]--R-41 (talk) 17:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

pov tag on spectrum section?

We worked long and hard to make sure the spectrum section was as well documented as possible. One person placed a POV tag onthe section, and I would hope he reads the long and detailed discussions leading to the very NPOV current section. Placing the tag without discussing his concerns here first is worrisome. Collect (talk) 22:33, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Having reliable sources does not make something neutral, and I do not see that any consensus has been reached. I have placed a request for help on the Fascsim projedt page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Fascism The Four Deuces (talk) 00:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

We put in each source available -- might I ask specifically what in the section you find to be POV? Collect (talk) 01:12, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

You are aware from previous discussion what is wrong but I will enter it for editors who read your comments so that they will not have to go back. The sentence: "Historians do not place all fascists in the same position on the political spectrum - groups have been placed 'left, right and center,' or not even in the spectrum at all" is misleading because most historians place fascism on the right, one scholar (Lipset) places it in the center, and no one places it on the left. The extensive discussion of the "new left wing fascism" is misleading because it is based on one article in one book and is not representative of academic opinion of fascism. Also, it is misleading because the article does not claim that the "new left wing fascism" is "left-wing" only in that it uses left-wing jargon in order to attract left-wing support, and the section does not mention that the writer considers it to be part of the right. The writing on the "new left-wing fascism" is also incoherent, and does not explain the theories contained in the footnotes.

This is the section that should be removed:

Irving Louis Horowitz writes of "the new left-wing Fascism" with anti-Semitism as the "essential motor." Horowitz says that in the United States, left-wing fascism consists of a denial or rejection of American democracy, and a devotion to socialism that is merely an idealized abstraction, combined with an unwillingness to confront the actual history of communism. He presents as an example Massimiliano Fanchin (sic), who was arrested in connection with a bombing in Bologna: "He first drew attention as part of a Palestine Solidarity committee, which he helped organize with another fascist, Franco Freda." Horowitz describes Theodor W. Adorno as "central to the thinking of avant garde left-wing fascism." Jeffrey Bale writes on "'National Groupuscules' and the Resurgence of 'Left-Wing' Fascism", giving as an example Christian Bouchet who "joined a left-fascist national revolutionary group known as the Organisation Lutte du Peuple (OLP)."

Clear as mud. Note too that "Fanchin" (sic) was acquitted of the Bologna Massacre after Horowitz's article, and is still living. The Four Deuces (talk) 06:12, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Sources are clearly given for historians placing types on fascism in all locations on the spectrum, and two sources for "left, right and center." This was hashed out pretty thoroughly before. ""There is disagreement on the position of fascism in the political spectrum. Not all historians place all fascists in one spot. Some historians place differing groups of fascists on the left, on the right and in the center." was your own suggestion -- seems odd that you now dispute essentially the same language you assented to. And the cites are releibale sources, which means your desidre to remove them is quite contrary to WP guidelines in the first place. Thanks -- and I expect your POV tag to go, as we already use what YOU proposed! Collect (talk) 10:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

It's not that the statement is not factual, it's that it does not explain what the mainstream view is, and leaves the reader with the view that the dispute is greater than it is. The same statement could apply to both the American Democratic and Republican parties, yet would be considered misleading. The statement ignores the fact that there is general agreement about fascism as right-wing with some left-wing and possibly even centrist elements. You would not find a statement like this in a textbook. I think it would be better if other people looked at it. The Four Deuces (talk) 17:03, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

We already use your suggestion for the initial sentence -- so arguing now that it is POV is not logical. Cites for people calling different groups of fascists left tright and center are provided -- which is what the section is about. And since the sentence is from, essentially, a textbook, I do not see exactly what you find POV in the section? Collect (talk) 17:23, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

NPOV cannot be maintained on every sentence, especially in an article about poltiics. What is important is an overall NPOV, with an aim to balance without undue weight. If you don't like the weighting, fix it, but don't expect someone with a different approach, however slight, to write what you want them to write. Mdw0 (talk) 22:31, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I think it is important that the opening sentence of a section is NPOV. I had written "While fascism is popularly considered to be right-wing, some scholars have questioned its place on the political spectrum," which I think is generous to minority academic opinion. However, I think the discussion of "left-wing fascism" in the section is a fatal flaw. Horowitz and Bales (and they are the only two writers who use the term) are referring to neo-fascists who use left-wing terminology but they still consider "right-wing" because both these authors consider fascism to be right-wing. The section however misinterprets their position in order to argue that the opinion that fascism is leftist has equal acceptance to the opinion that it is rightist. The discussion is further jarring because there is no mention of neo-fascism or "left-wing fascism" anywhere else in the article. I have by the way tried to edit the article, but there is no consensus on change. The Four Deuces (talk) 23:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Agreed - doesn't belong in the opening section. A section further down is appropriate. Mdw0 (talk) 07:05, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

abortion eugenics and euthanasia

I removed the section and it has now been reinserted without any Talk here --- as there is no commonality specific to fascism in the topic, I wonder just what relevance it has. Actually the only commonality seems to be that governments regulate all of this -- but that is true of non-fascist governments as well, making it a pretty useless section. Can someone tell me why it is an important section to maintain? Thanks! Collect (talk) 22:48, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Major changes should not be made without discussion - that's what this page is for. The Four Deuces (talk) 23:46, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Since I mentioned it a while ago (28 Feb) and no one said anything against the edit, I would say that I did, indeed, set it out on the talk page with lots of notice. Collect (talk) 00:15, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

This is what you said:

At this point, Francoism which is described in the article as being not fascist likely does not belong in the article. Also sections from "Social Darwinism" down to "economic policies" are odd as they all pretty much state that fascists do not agree on them <g> making them orthogonal as issues. Ditto the Racism and Religion sections -- if the topic is not generally associated with Fascism as a topic, it does not really belong here. Collect (talk) 20:14, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Some people might have missed that you were referring to the "Abortion, eugenics and euthenasia" section as it was not specifically mentioned. You also gave no warning that you intended to delete anything. By the way, what does "<g>" mean? The Four Deuces (talk) 11:39, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

As the section was labeled "sections which need trimming or removal" and you responded at length here, I thought you had read my post. Saying I said nothing is incorrect, and I regarded it as very clear that I was, indeed, mentions "sections which need trimming or removal." Thanks! Collect (talk) 11:49, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Collect, I'm really not following your enthusiasm for everything that doesn't match the hopes and dreams of all the major fascist groups being deleted. They weren't all completely homogenous, and this section is describing more general attitudes, both of them and towards them. If there's a note in a particular section that says this group favoured XYZ more and this group less, you seem to want to focus on that difference alone and cut it out. Are you seriously suggesting that Racism and Eugenics are NOT fascist traits? Mdw0 (talk) 07:16, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

This article is on "Fascism." Adding material which is not really related directly to Fascism seems to be quite misleading. Ought we have "National Cooking" here? I would hope not - and where a section says "some fascists do one thing and others do the opposite" and the fact is that nations which are non-fascist also do the same things, one might reasonably deduce the section has nothing at all to do with fascism. The article is not about "all attributes of each society ever called 'fascist' even though a lot has nothing to do with Fascism." We ought to focus on what is in common, and this side stuff really does not belong. Does this make sense? And the "g" bit goes back a long time when one wished to show a "grin" lest people take your 300 baud tyoing too seriously. As for "racism" being in any way peculair to fascism -- not only were many fascist not racist, many totally non-fascist nations are or were racist (I would suggest parts of the US were "racist" at exactly the same time as Germany was, and there is evidence that racism may well persist in China, and definitely does in large parts of Africa. The more clearly we can define "Fascism", the better this article can become. Collect (talk) 10:38, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Exactly - definiton is important, but indicating that there are differing opinions as to what counts as fascism - that there are different definitions is vital to indicate the reason for the arguments. It is also important to deal with elements that are commonly associated with fascism, and rightly or wrongly racism is strongly associated with fascism. Also, most modern fascist movements are racist, but there is very little regarding modern fascist groups in the article. The fact that many fascist groups were not racist despite the common assumption is an important idea to express, but this discrepancy isnt enough to treat racism and the methods used to enforce racial policy as sidelines or irrelevant. Mdw0 (talk) 23:54, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Nope. Our function is not to add stereotypes which are inaccurate to any group at all. Collect (talk) 01:45, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

So thats why when dealing with issues like racism its important to say; while these fscist groups have racist platforms these don't. That's not a reason to delete the information out because not all fascist groups are the same. You don't overcome stereotypes by deleting information, you do so by differentiating and providing information, something with is ironically the antithesis of fascists, who usually want to entrench stereotypes. Mdw0 (talk) 03:33, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

political spectrum heading

This heading was stable for aeons -- now it is "position in the political spectrum" where the actual text makes it clear that it has no singular position in the political spectrum ... if we are to alter "political spectrum" it ought not be in a misleading direction for sure. Thuse "Uncertain position in the political spectrum" would be an improvement, I suppose. Or, best of all, just keep "Political spectrum" where it had been. Collect (talk) 13:34, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

"Political spectrum" on its own isn't really clear about what the section is about. "Position in the political spectrum" is absolutely clear, because that is exactly what the section is about; the alleged position of fascism in the political spectrum. It is a subsection of "Portrayals", so it is obvious that the section is about how various people portray fascism. If you want to add words like "uncertain" or "relevance" to that section, you might as well add them to every single section on Wikipedia that expresses any bit of disagreement. I doubt that many others would agree to go down that road.Spylab (talk) 13:59, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

And, as is amply pointed out, "Fascism" does not have a "single position in the political spectrum." The title of a section is not intended to be the lede, so "political spectrum" was quite sufficient. See "Change a heading only after careful consideration, because this will break section links to it within the same article and from other articles. If changing a heading, try to locate and fix broken links. " Collect (talk) 14:08, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that many articles have hyperlinks to this section. The Four Deuces (talk) 18:38, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Doubt or not, the guideline still aplies. Collect (talk) 22:13, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Amibiguity

I'm not sure how to phrase this other than to ask is there any way to nail down Fascism a bit? Almost every single one of their 'core tenents' seems to contradict itself hopelessly. The justification for inclusion is invariably one of the Italian school. Considering how much the ideology and practices have changed, perhaps there should be some kind of distinction? Soxwon (talk) 16:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that nailing down "fascism" is a bit like nailing Jell-O. As far as I can tell, we have to rely on the "reliable sources" which, themselves, do not particularly agree with one another. The task is not to do research, but simply to relay to readers what learned people have written. And with the acknowledged pejorative misuse of the term, this is no easy task. Collect (talk) 23:14, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I guess my question is if it's a "core tenent" how come it's inclusion is disputed? Soxwon (talk) 23:25, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

The "core tenets" are the dogmas behind the movement. Where different groups are called "fascist" but totally disagree on an issue, it is hardly likely to meet that standard. I happen to disagree with the inclusion of some of the sections here, as you will note by looking at my prior comments. Collect (talk) 23:41, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe all the tenets should be listed as "Fascist Characteristics" ? Mdw0 (talk) 00:28, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Each fascist movement usually has its own unique traits as it is a nationalist movement and each nation has its own unique history. Mussolini intentionally made fascism ambiguous so that it could attract a large array of support to its nationalist principles, Mussolini said that fascists can be "aristocrats or democrats, revolutionaries and reactionaries, proletarians and anti-proletarians, pacifists and anti-pacifists".^[1] Fascism is an ideology which is obsessed with absolute national unity, which means that it attempts to find ways to gain popular support of most people rather than strategically selecting people. If one examines fascism from its nationalist standpoint, ideas that seem contradictory make sense: i.e. promoting social welfare while opposing class conflict (that is for national unity in helping the lower classes while not aggravating the upper classes), opposing individualism and individualist ideologies (i.e. liberalism) while promoting collectivism of nations and opposing class identity (to absolutely unify a nation in a collective, individualism must be crushed or dissent will rise), and opposing egalitarianism (because egalitarianism means acceptance of other peoples whom radical nationalists may have grudges against, such as Yugoslavs to Italian Fascists and Jews to the Nazis, plus fascists wanted their nations to be strong to compete and perhaps wage war with rival nations, so demanding that members of the nation be strong and not reliant on the aide of others was deemed beneficial for the strength of the nation). Italian Fascism's perfect targets for national disunity were liberals and communists as Italy had a long tumultuous history of small-"l" liberal governments that were unstable and in many cases corrupt while communists and other class conflict prone militants in Italy were extremely violent and to nationalists, the communists and other class conflict militants had jeoprodized Italy's military campaign in World War I in violent actions against the government, which was seen as unpatriotic and treasonous by nationalists. By the end of World War I, many Italians were angry with what they saw as failed and weak liberal governments and also angry and worried about the Italian nation been torn apart by class conflict and the potential rise of Bolshevism in Italy after the events in Russia in 1917. This is the political and historical context of fascism, which is confusing when one only looks at the loose array of policies, but is much more rational when one knows the basis for the fascist agenda which is nationalism and when one knows the aggravating factors that led to it becoming a popular.

Well then, instead of trying to nail down something that is so flexible and ambiguous, why not adapt the article for that reason. Take what things are absolute (anti-intellectual, fanaticism) and keep them as "core beliefs." For the rest, take Italy (and perhaps Nazi) fascism and display it's views, then show how the meaning has changed from place to place. It would look something like this:

I Core Beliefs
A) Belief 1

B) Belief 2

II Itailain (possibly Nazi) Fascism

A) Belief 1

B) Belief 2

III Other forms

A) Belief 1

And so on, we could also trim and combine sections 3, 4, and 5 this way. Soxwon (talk) 14:32, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that anti-intellectualism and fanaticism are not beliefs, but they help explain why fascists did not develop a coherent rational ideology. The Four Deuces (talk) 17:31, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok,tenents and practice then Soxwon (talk) 18:17, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

There is no mention in the article explaining where fascist support came from. Does anyone think there should be a separate section? The Four Deuces (talk) 08:09, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Mentioned: "aristocrats or democrats, revolutionaries and reactionaries, proletarians and anti-proletarians, pacifists and anti-pacifists".[39] Mussolini claimed that fascism could be both revolutionary and conservative.[40]" Mussolini ran a fairly all-inclusive operation, and his movement drew from just about all political types. Collect (talk) 14:56, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Mussolini was actually writing about fascist ideology rather than who were his supporters. In any case the article should use secondary sources where available. I meant something more detailed. See: United_States_Democratic_Party#Voter base or Republican Party (United States)#Voter base as examples. Financial support is also important. The Four Deuces (talk) 16:16, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

We have sources for his supporters having included socialists, anarchists etc. I doubt we will find Gallup polls dating back to the 1920s for sure. Collect (talk) 16:22, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

There are of course other methods of determining who the supporters were. But if you have have sources then it would be helpful to add them to the article. The Four Deuces (talk) 17:18, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

[14] Jewish supporters. [15] "veterans ... futurist painters, pro-war socialists and university and school; students" (as being in the "Fascist squads.") [16] "Robert Michels ... develops from syndicalism and international socialism ... and as an early supporter of Mussoline defends Italy's entry into the war against Austria and subsequently Germany. (WW I)" [17] Odon Por was a socialist supporter of Fascism. and so on. Collect (talk) 17:40, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

So can we say that "Fascism drew its support from Jews, veterans, futurist painters, pro-war socialists and university and school students"? The Four Deuces (talk) 17:58, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Lots more (I did not list every available cite for sure) -- but is clear that Fascism drew support from a very wide range of people. I trust this answers your question. Collect (talk) 18:17, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Should we state that fascists drew wide support and that demographics (religion, ethnicity, class, gender, previous political alliance, etc.) played no part in determing fascists' support? The Four Deuces (talk) 19:02, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't be opposed to this. Soxwon (talk) 19:05, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Often played no part. Obviously the inclusive / exclusive nature of fascist groups varied. Mdw0 (talk) 07:24, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the idea is that there is no unifying essence of fascism which required it to seek out any particular group. Clearly Mobutu was a tribalist which affected his support. That does not mean, however, that it was important as any sort of general rule for fascist groups. As this is an article on fascism in general (short sections for individual groups and movements) the wording is quite proper. Collect (talk) 11:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I should point out that while fascism claims that it is open to people of diverse political beliefs, this does not mean it has totally ambiguous views. Mussolini may have claimed that he appealed to pacifists, but his record was anti-pacifist, just as his claims to appeal to democracy advocates were hollow as he shut down representative democracy and examples of supposed direct democracy by the fascist regimes such as plebiscites (i.e. on the Lateran Treaty and the reunification of Saar into Germany) were done with the government telling the population what result it preferred and thus people feared violence by the fascists if the result was not in the government's interest. Fascists declared that they were nationalists, i.e. Mussolini once had a very brief quote of what Italian Fascism was, saying approximately that "Fascism is nationalism plus futurism". Also the systems which the fascists ran their states are not ambiguous, they were nationalist single-party states with social and economic interventionist programs to regiment society for military and economic purposes which had common anti-class conflict, anti-communist, anti-liberal, anti-internationalist and other prominant views.--R-41 (talk) 15:00, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

As an aside -- the Saar reunification was, AFAICT, fairly open. The dislike of the French far outweighed any other factors. See also the 1955 vote where I doubt the fascists had any sway. Collect (talk) 15:22, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I had thought that the middle class nature of fascism was one of its core aspects, distinguishing it from conservatism and socialism, as well as helping to explain its tenets and appeal as a type of "right-wing" populism. Lipset's article "Fascism as 'extremism of the middle class'"[18], an abridged version of "Fascism -- Left, Right and Center", discusses this issue and it continues to be important in fascist studies. However, as no one seems to find it significant, I will not press the matter. The Four Deuces (talk) 15:36, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Ambiguity - cont.

I seem to have sidetracked everyone from Soxwon's re-organization proposal. I don't think the academic consensus is that they had core beliefs beyond the idea of a leader, but that some beliefs are typical of fascists and what unites them is their self-consciousness of a connection. It's like one of those tests where someone is determined to have a condition if they have a high score, e.g., the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. I don't have any position on re-organization, but started this new section to get back to the discussion. The Four Deuces (talk) 16:02, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I think that saying that there is no perfect academic consensus means somehow that there is no consensus whatsoever is a flawed and defeatist view. I say defeatist because it claims that it is impossible to find a consensus. There is NO perfect consensus on anything, especially on many political issues, but general consensus on political views is possible. For instance every knowledgeable scholar will say that core tenets of fascism include nationalism, authoritarianism, advocacy of the creation of a single-party state, support of the government being run by a dictator, support of government intervention into social and economic areas, among other things. It is because it is nationalist that no two fascist movements can be completely alike, because each nation has its own history and its own culture to affect its views. User:The Four Deuces mentioned about psychology tests which brings me to another point: different personalities of the fascist leaders affected how the movement was presented, for instance Mussolini presented Italian Fascism in idealist and very philosophical and intellectual terms while Hitler presented German National Socialism in very realist and simple terms. But when one reviews the content about what they say is very similar. One should remember that the most effective nationalist, or indeed anyother form of collective populist policy is to appeal to a wide array of people in the targetted group by being as vague and open as possible. Just look at this quote by Mussolini: "I do not respect—I even hate—those men that leech a tenth of the riches produced by others".^[2] This quote is a little divisive-sounding, as initially it may seem very anti-socialist and pro-capitalist to business people who believe in free markets, but to others it may sound very pro-worker/socialist and anti-capitalist in that it appears to say that no one has the right to steal money away from those who laboured to earn it. Mussolini was very clever in saying things that could have two meanings at the same time. I mentioned a quote earlier that Mussolini claimed that fascism, among other things, could have pacifist and anti-pacifist supporters within its ideology at the same time. It sounds like hypocracy, but Mussolini's foreign policy in the 1920s involved pressuring other countries to cede to Italy's demands without going to war, such as making Albania a protectorate and allow Italian settlers to move in and forcing Yugoslavia to sign the Treaty of Nettuno which also allowed settlers to move into the Italian-claimed territory of Dalmatia. Mussolini did this so that Italians could eventually colonize these regions, so that under the League of Nations principle of self-determination of all nations , the Italian nation in Dalmatia and Albania would eventually be able to legally (under international law) have these territories join Italy. Italian Fascism was anti-pacifist in the sense that it did not believe in perpetual and constant peace, if the fascist movements' goals could not be fulfilled through peaceful means, they were fully willing to threaten or use war to achieve them. The Treaty of Nettuno was officially a peaceful agreement agreed to candidly by Italy and Yugoslavia but in reality was more like a shotgun wedding, international observers expected that there would be a war between Italy and Yugoslavia if Yugoslavia did not concede to sign the treaty.^[3]. The scenario in the Suddetenland in 1938 was very similar to that involving the Treaty of Nettuno, with Hitler claiming that he only wanted Czechoslovakia to respect the self-determination of the German nation in the Sudetenland and claimed that he wanted a "peaceful" solution, but Nazi Germany was ready and willing to wage war to gain that territory. Hitler did the same thing when he gained Memel from Latvia, and tried to get Danzig and the Polish Corridor through treaties, but Poland would not give in to the Nazis' expansionism, then war erupted because Hitler could not achieve his nationalist goals through peace. It is of great irony that the Nazis declared the year 1939 to be a "year of peace", but it shows that they had no inhibition in presenting themselves militarists and pacifists at the same time. As can be seen Hitler and Mussolini both attempted to present themselves as people who were willing to use war to achieve nationalist goals, but who were willing to preserve peace if nationalist goals could be achieved through other means. Certainly both Hitler and Mussolini preferred war as being deemed heroic, but forcing an enemy country to cede through peaceful means made them look like reasonable people. This is fascism being "pacifist" and "anti-pacifist" at the same time as in the case of the Treaty of Nettuno and the Sudeten crisis, peace between countries would be maintained if rival country give in to fascist country's demands, war would begin if rival countries refused to give in. The point of me saying all of this is to say that fascists had common ideas and common agendas, what may seem ambiguous and hypocritical about various forms of fascism is often because of fascism's very nature of being a nationalist ideology which means that it has to apply and adapt to different national histories and that its agenda must be broad enough to encompass a genuinely collective spirit over all members of a nation.--R-41 (talk) 00:14, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Not all members, only enough members to maintain their hold on power. Or enough of the powerful elite. Exclusion of certain types is most certainly a core tenet of fascism. Divide and conquer. As regards the "pacifist" stance of the facist countries in the 30s, I dont think you can equate "pacifism" with "not going to war with the most powerful enemies just yet." The tension between the Euopean powers was pervasive at that time - they were all treading on eggshells trying very hard not to piss each other off too much and risk war, or in the fascists' case risk war before they were ready. Mdw0 (talk) 02:44, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you that fascists were indeed anti-pacifist and that peace was never a true goal in itself in fascism as fascism is based on competition and conflict between nations, I am simply explaining what they meant by their claims of support of "peace". "Peace" like you said was seen by fascists as a time to re-arm, to prepare for war, but peaceful negotiations to gain what the fascist states' wanted was done to humiliate weaker countries' by forcing them to agree to their demands or risk having war. By saying that they were for "peace" but always ready for war, fascist-run countries attempted to look reasonable and make their opponents look like unreasonable war-mongers - i.e. the Nazis claimed that Poland invaded Germany, this is not true, but it shows that they did not want to appear as the aggressors in spite of their very aggressive stances on expansionism, as the Nazis very disgenuinely claimed that they had wanted 1939 to be a "year of peace". Peace was seen in a utilitarian manner by fascists, the name of peace could be used to force humiliating concessions from other countries under threats of war to allow fascist states to acquire territory without losing a single person in combat and thus officially looking like they were reasonable in solving a problem without force. War is always on the table for fascists, but utilitarian uses of peaceful means are never discarded, as the Treaty of Nettuno and the Sudeten Crisis reveal that peace can be preserved while a country can be forced to make humiliating concessions to an aggressor fascist-run country.--R-41 (talk) 22:03, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

The purpose of this page is to discuss the article not fascism. It says above: "This is not a forum for general discussion of Fascism. Any such messages will be deleted. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article." A good article reflects accepted understanding of a subject and must be referenced to authorities. We cannot say that authorities do not agree on the definitions of fascism, so we will agree on a definition. Looking through the discussion archives, numerous editors have made this same comment.

Instead of concentrating on core issues, a lot of editors have tenaciously pressed non-mainstream views, e.g., fascism = socialism, "left-wing fascism" is left-wing and fascist, Mobutism is fascism.

Rather than argue with the new list of core tenets, which includes et cetera, I only ask that it be verifiable.

It would be helpful it editors kept their comments short and to the point. Also, editors should make their comments here rather than on one another's talk pages because it makes it difficult to follow the discussion.

The Four Deuces (talk)

I agree with most of this. This discussion section has become unwieldy. However, also I think that minority views with verifiable and substantial published references should be included. Fascism is so misunderstood and disagreed upon in general that I seriously doubt we're going to be able to come up with a truly meaningful and fair definition. Each significant viewpoint may just need it's own subheading forever.--Arationalguy (talk) 17:43, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

User:The Four Deuces, I was trying to explain the ambiguity within fascism regarding the ambiguous claim by Mussolini that fascists could be both "pacifists and anti-pacifists". Discussing the ambiguity of what fascism is in this article which is what this discussion section is about. This discussion section was created because people are saying that this article has no point, that it is unfair. The definition we have right now for fascism is one of the most accurate that I have ever seen in this article or in most books for that matter, the problem is that people either want a "perfect" answer and can never be satisfied or succumb to defeatism because of minor problems in the definition. Definitions of topics and what they mean are written about by multiple writers with different views. What Wikipedia does is filter the views of multiple sources to find common strands of information which are not under dispute, with the exception of the political spectrum section of this article and the section involving fascism's view on religion, most of the article is highly coherent and justified by multiple sources. To User:Arationalguy, I say this, look at what some uninformed dictionaries have a definition of fascism as, I have seen one dictionary give a lame definition of fascism being "oppressive dictatorial control", so you don't have to be so defeatist, be thankful that this article is much better than that of a published book. This article with the help of many users has got the essential characteristics of fascism correct, the only controversy is the political spectrum section where some left-wing partisan users scream that it is right-wing and some right-wing partisan users scream that it is left-wing. You can't satisfy political partisans, they always want to fight, so don't worry about being "fair" to them, their definition of fairness is complete submission to their ideological view. Be fair to people who want real knowledge, not just satisfaction. On the point about ambiguity within fascism, I have pointed out before, but will repeat, is that nationalist and other collectivist populist movements try to appeal to large numbers of people who may have different views and have to be ambiguous in order to gain the support of large groups of people. Italian Fascism for instance was united in nationalism but had internal divisions on other issues in which Mussolini had to appease multiple factions, hence that is why there is ambiguity in fascist beliefs. We can complain about minor problems in this article until we are blue in the face, as Wikipedia involves endless revision but I am very thankful to all those users who have put in time to help find a very concise definition of fascism which is currently in the article. And please don't make negative and defeatist statements like "I seriously doubt we're going to be able to come up with a truly meaningful and fair definition", make positive and constructive suggestions so that we can make improvements to this already much-improved article.--R-41 (talk) 01:03, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

R-41 said: "What Wikipedia does is filter the views of multiple sources to find common strands of information which are not under dispute". That is absolutely wrong. WP Policy states "Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each" and "Do not put together information from multiple sources to reach a conclusion that is not stated explicitly by any of the sources". (See Wikipedia:Npov#Undue_weight and Wikipedia:Syn#Synthesis_of_published_material_that_advances_a_position.) I have therefore tagged this article. Please do not remove these tags until the dispute is resolved.

Again, the "Political spectrum" section first sentence has been changed to 'Historians do not place all fascists in the same position on the political spectrum - groups have been placed "left, right and center," or not even in the spectrum at all'. As we discussed above, this statement is false and not supported by the references or even in the section itself. This followed by Mussolini's views on fascism. Mussolini is not a reliable source. Therefore I have removed this paragraph.

Editors should familiarize themselves with guidelines for writing articles before making changes, which will go a long way to reduce disputes. Please note too that these articles are supposed to be informative and not to to present personal views.

The Four Deuces (talk) 11:44, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The statement is not false, and was suggested by you, if you recall. {;ease dp not make such changes when they were, in fact, suggested by you. Thanks! Collect (talk) 11:52, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Collect: The onus is on you to provide sources for your statement and you have not done so. Anyone can read on this page and the archives the numerous unsuccessful attempts that I and other editors have made to uncover your sources. It is also evident that neither I nor anyone else agreed to this phrasing and in any case prior agreement would not justify keeping it. Even if the statement was true and sourced (it is neither), it would be misleading because it would give wp:undue weight to minority and fringe opinions. Furthermore it is unclear prose. The Four Deuces (talk) 12:45, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

User:The Four Deuces, I stand corrected over a mistake in Wikipedia policy, since you now told me, so thank you. But I am disappointed with your unconciliatory, impolite, and unwelcoming behaviour which is what Wikipedia users are supposed to have. You could have easily pointed out my mistake without being so personal, aggressive, and distrusting towards me, as well as by being alarmist by adding a synthesis tag to the top of the article which discredits the work of multiple users just because of a mistake on my part, as that is not acceptable or fair to other users. I have collected material from multiple sources of quotes and well-known scholars on the subject who essentially say the same things but only in different words. The same is the case between you and the User:Collect. I will amend mistakes I have made, just tell me what they specifically are, instead of tagging the entire article that discredits the work of multiple users merely for a mistake on my part. I will warn you User:The Four Deuces that I have urged you to behave cooperatively with me and other users like User:Collect, by refraining from engaging in vicious arguments so I am warning you this (and for this matter, User:Collect as well in his arguments with you): if you continue to have uncooperative and distrusting attitudes towards other users instead of being cooperative, constructive, and welcoming as Wikipedia calls for, I will seriously consider sending a request for you to be banned from Wikipedia. We do not need angry arguments on Wikipedia, we need constructive discussion and constructive solutions, so please refrain from being so distrustful of users like me or Collect. I have no bad intent for this article and I am not pushing my own views, for instance I do not believe that fascism is exclusively right-wing, but for the sake of those that argue that it is, I have added material to demonstrate their points. I have changed my perception about what fascism is based on the discussion of sources that describe what fascism is, I originally thought it was just a far-right ideology, but through discussions I learned that it is not exclusively seen as right-wing, and that it is a nationalist ideology above all else. The quotation of Goebbels in this article in which Goebbels praises authoritarian nationalism as a new revolution to replace the legacy of the French Revolution is a perfect example of a reference which states the definition of what fascism is which is completely unsynthesized. I am aware that Mussolini is not entirely a reliable source, as interpretation of what he said is usually necessary, but be advised that if we completely mistrust and disbelieve everything that fascist leaders actually said, then we will be unable to trust any source about fascism, because many sources utilize and describe the meaning of fascists' statements or documents. When you quote someone like Mussolini, you obviously have to take what he says with a grain of salt (i.e. not trust everything he says) because he is a proponent of fascism. However, Mussolini's statements are very useful in determining what fascism promoted itself as being. If you have a problem with an aspect of my edits, please inform me of what precise problems you have, so that I can amend the problem. As you suggested, I will look over the Wikipedia guidelines again to make sure that I am not violating them, I hope you will do what I suggest as it will improve your relations with other users and allow this discussion to be more constructive. So please tell me what specific problems you have with my edits so that we can make changes and remove that synthesis tag at the top of the page.--R-41 (talk) 13:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I have responded on your talk page. The Four Deuces (talk) 13:52, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

(out) Kindly note that every claim made in the first sentence is fully sourced. Further that the first sentence is to be, if possible, a summary of the section. Also that the precise phrase is cited, which makes it kind of hart to claim that any OR is present. And finally that I refrained from re-adding the valid cites for historians referring to "left wing fascism" after you repeatedly deleted the RSs cited. Now, absent you being able to find a consensus to remove the phrasing you yourself insisted on, I would ask you recognize the consensus for the current wording. Finally Mussolini is, indeed, a reliable source as to what Mussolini said -- so removing that makes no sense at all. Thanks! Collect (talk) 15:04, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

No reasonable reading of the sources given for the lede sentence support its contents. The Four Deuces (talk) 16:46, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

^ Neocleous, Mark. Fascism. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 1997. Pp. 54.
^ Benito Mussolini, Richard Washburn Child, Max Ascoli, Richard Lamb. My rise and fall. Da Capo Press, 1998. p. 26.
^ ""Down with Mussolini!". Time. 1928-06-11. Retrieved 2009-01-31. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

[1] Neocleous, Mark. Fascism. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 1997. Pp. 54.

[2] Benito Mussolini, Richard Washburn Child, Max Ascoli, Richard Lamb. My rise and fall. Da Capo Press, 1998. p. 26.

[TimeMagazine_11June1928_DownwithMussolini-3] ""Down with Mussolini!". Time. 1928-06-11. Retrieved 2009-01-31. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

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