Talk:Far-right politics/Archive 14

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Hard-right? PT. 2

Should there be a delineation between "hard-right" politics and "far-right" politics, or should we treat them as the same? I notice, for instance, that The New York Times conspicuously eschews the label "far-right" when discussing people like Matt Gaetz, but does not do so when referring to a presidential candidate in Argentina. I imagine other editors of this page are far more informed than I am on these two terms and their idiosyncrasies, but I figured I'd ask about it. Delukiel (talk) 00:34, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

"Hard right" is one of those sources that can mean different things by publication; in my experience it's not usually synonymous with the far-right, and sits between it and just old regular "right-wing". That said, it's nebulous at best. It's likely that the NYT doesn't consider Matt Gaetz far-right (or is more careful about using that to describe American politicians). In short, I don't think it should be treated as the same. — Czello ^(music) 17:18, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

The extreme right is the same as the hard-right because there are references that indicate it, there is no bibliographic support that says otherwise. AmigodeMassa (talk) 12:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

As above, it's not ubiquitous in sourcing. — Czello ^(music) 13:06, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

For example, in this reference from the week, it is indicated that both Cambio and Vox belong to the hard-right, while Javier Milei belongs to the far-right, therefore they are synonyms since I imagine that all people believe that Vox is even more right-wing than Javier Milei, however the hard-right classification is used. With this I want to affirm that they are exactly the same AmigodeMassa (talk) 13:13, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

That's WP:OR — Czello ^(music) 13:32, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

First we have to understand that hard-right is the same as extreme right, something that all the dictionaries in the world say. I attach examples:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hard-right

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/es/diccionario/ingles-espanol/the-hard-right

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/hard+right

https://educalingo.com/en/dic-en/hard-right

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/hard%20right Monito rapido (talk) 15:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello Monito rapido, I thought I'd find you here.

I see you've reproduced here some content that you posted during our discussion over your assertion that the Traditional Unionist Voice party was a "far-right" party, viz. TUV Political Position.

Your statement "First we have to understand that hard-right is the same as extreme right " seems to me to fall into the category of what the Wikipedia Manual of Style calls "Instructional and Presumptious language" [1] .

For what it's worth, my own undertanding of the recent increase in the use of the term "hard right" by journalists is that they are substituting it for the term "far right", not because they want to but because their readers are questioning the use of such a term.

My own point of reference when it comes to European political parties and their political nature is the following website: Wolfram Nordsiek, comparative study of party systems in Europe. Here is their own description of what their website is about: "Parties and Elections in Europe provides a comprehensive database about political parties, elections and governments in all European countries. The website contains the results of parliamentary elections from more than 100 countries and autonomous regions in Europe. The parties are classified according to their political orientation. Historical data can be found in the archive.The private website was established by Wolfram Nordsieck in 1997. The editor began his comparative study of party systems, parliamentary elections and constitutional laws in the late 1980s. Thereafter he studied law and history at the Heinrich Heine University Düsseldorf. Today he practices law."

They include such categories as "Far-right politics" , "Right-wing populism", "Nationalism" and "Social Conservatism". BrownBowler (talk) 17:58, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

what is your point? Monito rapido (talk) 18:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Monito rapido, I'm not trying to make a point, I'm just trying to do my best to elucidate a subject and to provide more information for discussion. At the same time, I added an opinion in case anyone was interested in what I had to say. That's what Wikipedia is about. I was criticising your style of discussion, that's true. BrownBowler (talk) 20:19, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

All of them are the same:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ultra-right

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/far-right Monito rapido (talk) 15:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Dictionaries as sources. Doug Weller talk 18:43, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going to use those references for anything, I'm only using those references for saying that the far-right, hard-right, extreme-right and ultra-right are the same and have the same meaning. Monito rapido (talk) 18:48, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that the various terms are used inconsistently in reliable sources. News articles, whose writers are not experts, often chose their descriptions for brevity or unconscious bias. Authoritarians we like are hard right, while those we don't are far right. TFD (talk) 18:56, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

You are stating that it is the same. the term must be added equally, or as a synonym, or as a faction of the far right Monito rapido (talk) 19:36, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

No I am not. I am saying that the terms are used inconsistently. Someone could call Hitler and Rand Paul far right. Or they could call HItler far right and Paul hard right. Or they could call HItler extreme right and Paul far right. So they are using these terms differently. They may for example distinguish HItler and Paul or they may group them together. They are both to the right of mainstream politics but far apart within that range. TFD (talk) 23:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I see that Monito rapido has been blocked by admin for sockpuppetry. Here is the comment from the admin clerk "Registered shortly after CulturalHuya and AmigodeMassa were blocked, exhibits precisely the same type of editing, with focus on far-right politics. Like master, seems to use Spanish language. Technical competence from first edit, continued to edit the same articles as master and socks.". No doubt to return very soon. BrownBowler (talk) 10:18, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I struck through edits of both of the socks. Doug Weller talk 12:05, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

References

"The Far Right Is Growing Stronger—and Has a Plan for 2024"

Title of this article[2]. Note that it says the Overton window has shifted:" Although the alt right collapsed, its goal of shifting the “Overton window”—the spectrum of what is considered legitimate political discourse—succeeded. Today, white supremacist, anti-LGBTQ+, and even antisemitic conspiracy theories have become so prevalent that what was taboo even in 2018 is accepted by many as not only normal but acceptable." Doug Weller talk 15:59, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The alt-right article points out how even though Charlottesville caused the alt-right to shatter, it had a ripple effect of radicalizing alt-righters into terrorism (Atomwaffen experienced great growth post-Cville). And now Republicans sort of occupy the position alt-right did a few years ago: White Genocide rhetoric is mainstream in GOP, etc.RKT7789 (talk) 16:30, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

There is no consensus on the reliability of the Daily Beast and no reason why the opinion of the journalist who wrote the story has any significance. Notice he says that the mainstream has ignored the growing strength of extremism, which suggests he is presenting a minority view.

I am not saying he is wrong, but I would need a better source to determine that. TFD (talk) 17:59, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

The volume, for lack of a better term, of Far-right rhetoric from the GOP in the mainstream has changed over the years, particularly since Trump's election, and has been been increasingly discussed by academics and scholars since the J6 attack. Finding sources that show some consensus on the subject of the extent to which the far-right is shaping or controlling the GOP platform in the mainstream would be most helpful. Currently we have separate sources that seemingly coalesce, but the GOP's mainstream platform hasn't changed since 2016. DN (talk) 01:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Guidelines for "Far Right" in Lede

Please help steer conversation onTalk/Joe Kent and how to determine standards for "is far right" and putting "far right" in the lede, particularly because of Nazi imagery on this page and it's syndication to Bing , Google & AI chatbots.

We have plenty of sources placing him "America First", "MAGA", "Republican" and naturally many who like "far right" because of this page.

see also BOLP/NB/JK Tonymetz 💬 01:36, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

totalitarianism authoritarian is far left

Far right, (on left you have extreme totalitarianism authoritarianism to the far right of total self autonomy). Nazi or national socialism Is still far left even if some consider nationalism on the right. Nationalism of no extreme is moderate. Far right exceeds any need of nationalism as it is full anarchy for self autonomy (full freedom as long as it is not i fringing on others). What infringements occur it goes full left as that is authoritarianism. 2603:7080:2C01:EA7:F031:C781:F39F:4910 (talk) 15:06, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

See the #FAQ at the top of this page; this is a definition of far-right/left that isn't recognised by historians and politican scientists. — Czello ^(music) 15:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Lack of neutrality

This article to does not view far right politics the same way as it does view far-left politics. While the one on the left does mention authoritarianism, as for the right it says it was inheritly authoritarian, which is not the case. This may not belong in the article, but right-libertarians often lean further to the right, see their view when it comes to freedom of speech (as we can see they, they even wish to have the swastika to be covered by the constiution). Keep in mind this is my personal experience, not a decided fact, I however do wish a bit more neutrality to be actually apolitical. MrLW97 (talk) 18:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I am not that thrilled with right-libertarianism, but it is a modern extension of anti-statism as an ideology and laissez-faire as an economic principle. Where do you see similarities with the ultranationalism of the far-right, its "hatred of foreigners", its pursuit of "territorial expansion", and its support for political violence to achieve its goals? When was the last time you heard of a libertarian "carrying out acts of violence and hate crimes against immigrants" ... and "ethnic minorities" like some of the European ultranationalist parties? Dimadick (talk) 21:45, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

The difference between far right and far left is that while far right refers to a specific group of ideologies, far left is a vague term that merely means whatever part to his or her left the speaker finds unacceptable. The ideologies that are part of the far right are in fact authoritarian, while some on the far left, such as anarchism or the Biden administration, are not. TFD (talk) 21:56, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces Biden administration? That’s a joke, right? Doug Weller talk 22:06, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I think TFD is indicating that some people (elements of the GOP, for example) call the Biden administration far-left. TFD's point is that the term "far-left" can mean whatever it needs to depending on who is saying it.

(I disagree, but that's a discussion we've had elsewhere and I don't want to enter WP:FORUM territory) — Czello ^(music) 22:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't call Biden far left, but my point is that someone on the extreme right might because they place people on the spectrum differently. They see themselves as being in the center so Biden must be on the far left. Reliable sources however have described  Biden as being on the left, which could place AOC and Sanders on the far left. OTOH, far left could refer to groups to the left of Communist parties. it's a relative term that can mean different things depending on context.

The reason for this is that we don't have other terms to describe their ideologies. There is no other term that groups the KKK and the Nazi Party for example, while other parties typically self-identify with an ideology that is shared across national boundaries. TFD (talk) 23:01, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

It may well be true that "far left" is used by those of a right-leaning persuasion to refer to anyone significantly to the left of their ideology. But to suggest that "far right" is not used in the same way by those of a left-leaning political outlook is utterly false. The "far right" tag is often applied by those on the political left to refer to views which only a few years ago were generally considered to be just slightly to the right or even fairly central. Don't fall into the trap of believing that the "far" tag is not applied in a similar way by both sides of the political spectrum. 70.178.140.205 (talk) 03:36, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Certainly people misuse terms. But can you find a better term to describe political ideologies and movements that are to the right of mainstream right-wing parties such as conservatives, Christian democrats and liberals? TFD (talk) 05:31, 28 April 2024 (UTC)