Talk:Falkuša

Falkusa

Hi Sir Floyd. Thanks for the reminder. I see you've been experimenting with images on the draft article with some success - is there anything in particular you'd like a hand with? As for the question of finding suitably licensed images, I managed to turn up this one on Commons - it's not the highest of qualities but would probably be OK for an illustration, maybe with some cropping. Otherwise there's the possibility of contacting the owner of one of the google images you found and asking them for permission to use it, for which Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission might be of some use. What do you think? Olaf Davis (talk) 16:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Oops, I just realised that the page was still in article space and not user space - compare the old title User Sir Floyd: Falkusa with the one I just moved it to, User:Sir Floyd/Falkusa. Surprised neither of us noticed that before! Olaf Davis (talk) 16:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi! It's getting late here. So I'll be Zzzzzzsss real soon. I think the article needs colour (small image or two). Also could you please check what I have done and maybe start the copyedited. :) I'll be in-touch. Cheers! Sir Floyd (talk) 16:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I've looked over the article: it looks pretty good on the whole, well done! I made some minor copyedits - feel free to revert any you disagree with. I've also commented out the categories so the draft doesn't show up in them, but you can uncomment them once it's been moved back to article space.

At several points the article talks about the boat in the past tense, and at some in the present tense: it would be nice to say when the boat was mainly used, if that's known and available in any sources. Evidently it stopped around the 1930s or so - do you know when they were first made and when they stopped being used substantially for fishing?

I see you've put the piece by Jaksa Kivela as an external link rather than a reference, presumably because it's a commercial site and not a reliable source? But you've also cited it in the text so effectively it is being used as a reference... it might be better to decide whether it's a suitable ref. or not and stick to that, rather than the current half-way house :)

Why don't you think the photo I found is suitable? Is it the boat it depicts, the quality, or something else? Olaf Davis (talk) 18:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm having second thoughts (I'm a photographer by trade) about the "this one on Commons". Lets give it a go Sir Floyd (talk) 02:22, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

It's ok! Good call Olaf Davis. There are references for Falkusa going back to the the Republic of Venice days (& earlier):

• 1573 (regatta) - croatia.org by By Prof Darko Zubrinic
• Falkusa is an Croatian boat of 9m of length, with the mast of equal size, in use from 11th or 12th century. Croatian History.net by Darko Zubrinic, Zagreb (1995)

The question is can we use them? Ps Good work on the article. Regards Sir Floyd (talk) 06:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Hello again! Did not have time for Blue Cave this evening, so I'm just dropping a note regarding Falkusa article: did you consider nominating it for WP:DYK, so that it would appear on the main page? The article has to: 1) be of substantial length, 2) be otherwise "tidy" (referencing, formatting, etc.), and 3) contain an interesting fact. I see potential for all three and I'm certainly willing to help. GregorB (talk) 22:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm ok with DYK & I would love your help. Sir Floyd (talk) 08:46, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the two sources: they both look like pretty nice sources of information but, unfortunately, I'm not sure they'd qualify as reliable since they appear to be privately published and not by any university or 'reputable' press... if you wanted a second opinion you could try asking at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. I did a quick search for '1593 regatta komiza' on Google and found this mention of Maritime heritage that looks like it might be talking about the regatta. You cited that book before - do you have a copy that you can check in? If not I can try to get hold of the copy in my University's library system. Olaf Davis (talk) 12:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, if we can cite that then "first recorded sporting event in Croatia" would make a good fact to list at DYK! Olaf Davis (talk) 12:27, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Excellent idea, but it's not going to be easy. The Croatian tourist web sites rule Google World and also Komiza back then was part of the Republic of Venice. It's good to have GregorB on the article, he is the right person for the job. I wonder what he is doing now? Sir Floyd (talk) 12:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Here I am - been a bit busy these two days... The source for regatta might be this (Slobodna Dalmacija article, therefore a RS, albeit in Croatian). It doesn't say that it's a first recorded sporting event in Croatia, but it does say that is "the oldest fishermen's regatta in Europe" (riječ je o najstarijoj ribarskoj regati u Europi). Use of sources in Croatian will be necessary in order to fully flesh out the article. (Sir Floyd is able to read them too.) BTW: I suggest we copy this talk page section to User_talk:Sir_Floyd/Falkusa and continue from there. GregorB (talk) 16:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed the source is good & I can read Croatian. Lets work with it. Do you think it would be a good idea to get intouch with Jaksa Kivela? Sir Floyd (talk) 23:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

If I had a Facebook account, I could become his friend... (I think that's him.) But it probably won't be necessary: I've done a quick survey of online sources, and I think it should be more than enough. GregorB (talk) 22:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Slobodna Dalmacija article

Bummer! According to Slobodna Dalmacija some of the historic documents was destroyed by the Turks (1571), during one of the many battles between them and the Venetian Republic.

• 74 falkusa participated in the 1593 regatta
• Pop Aleksandra III
• Croatian Navy & the Premier Jadranke Kosor

Sudionici Regate

"The oldest document of the event is dated back to 1593. In May, before 406 years ago, they met in the Lodge in the town of Hvar. Komiza fishermen, 74 of them agreed on the date of departure. the conditions of race and their stay on Palagruza. It was agreed then that the race of 74 falkuse start on 12th of May 1593. To signal the begin of the race a cannon shot would be fired from the newly built fortress. They were accompanied by Venetian war galleys in order to protect the fisherman from pirates."

Taken from:

• Sudionici Regate-Cultural Institutions of Heritage Maritime ARS Halieutica from Komiza. Initiating for Reconstruction & Historical Race of the fishing boats of Komiza to Palagruza. (Croatian Version) Sir Floyd (talk) 09:20, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Vjesnik.hr

• "Pod pokroviteljstvom UNESCOa , a natemelju zamisli i projektne dokumentacije prof.d r. Velimira Salamona, sagradena je 1999 godine u Komizi gajeta falkusa Molo. Porinuta je u more na Dan svetoga Nikole 6 . Prosinca 1999 , a imenom Molo krstio ju je kum sekrear European Maritime Heritage Thedo Fruithof iz Amsterdama. "
• Betini na Murteru dovrsena jegajeta falkus_a. Posrijedi je druga replika povijesnoga kozmiskog ribarskog broda koji je do pedesetih godina pros_loga sto- ljeæa plovio Jadranom na jedra i vesla,

• Falkisza pucinska mora Replika gajete falkuse duga je devet metara (9m), kao i debljenjak (bum) te jarbol. U lantini (nosacu latinskog jedra) je 17 metara, a nosit ce 76 cetvornih metara osnovnoga latinskog jedrilja, plus sest metara floka. Siroka je 2.65 metara, pramcani gaz je 0,30, a krmeni - zbog ugraska pucnska mora visoki su 50 centimetara, a svako je veslo dugo 6,5 metra (row Length) . U pramcu je dobro sakriven i rezervoar goriva zapremine 75 litara, a na krmi Yanmar od 30 konja (hp). Falkusa je predvi pet clanova posade i moze primiti do pet tona (5 tone) pucnske ribe. Dovrsena je za godinu dana«.

Replica No2

• Length: 9 meters
• Width: 2.65 meters
• Five Man Crew
• Engine Yamaha: 30-hp diesel
• Tank Capacity: 75 litres

Diacritics

How do you feel about diacritics in the article, including its title (i.e. Falkuša, Komiža, etc.)? Don't worry about entering and/or fixing them - I'm volunteering to do that. GregorB (talk) 15:38, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't feel to good about them, but if GregorB thinks they are important then "let there be diacritics".

• Final title with diacritics (but with English redirect)
• Keep them minimal in the English references.
• Keep the intro: A falkusa (Croatian: falkuša) or gajeta falkusa ........

What do you think. :) Sir Floyd (talk) 09:31, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

A slight correction: no diacritics in references if they are originally absent, ditto with direct English quotes. GregorB (talk) 10:44, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Cool, So what's new? Sir Floyd (talk) 10:58, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, good, I see now it's already done. I've added the Croatian pronunciation. Did not have too much time these days, but this weekend I'm going to have a go at the article. GregorB (talk) 13:31, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Photograph

I'd love to see this photo in the article. It is important, because it illustrates the regatta and depicts the actual traditional vessel as it once was. Unfortunately, its copyright status is unclear, so we may have to contact Jaksa Kivela after all. GregorB (talk) 17:38, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

We need some sexy photos here. The boat is such an elegant design. I think Jaksa Kivela could help us. I'm teaching all day today but I might log in later tonight. I like the idea of historic photos too.

Are we both waiting for each other to get in-touch Mr Kivela? I'll do it, I think he woks in Hong Kong. Kinda next door. Sir Floyd (talk) 03:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, yes and no :-) - I was thinking that, since Kivela not only has the photograph but is an expert in the subject matter, we might need him for other things too. So I thought that we might consult him at some later point, once the article is fleshed out. But in fact there is no real reason not to contact him right away, so you might as well go ahead... GregorB (talk) 10:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

So what's new GregorB? I've got in touch Jack Kivela. Hey, Hey, Hey! He's very happy to help out. Sir Floyd (talk) 13:08, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Excellent. I was hoping he would... GregorB (talk) 14:02, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I've just download this photo, he said we can use it. Sir Floyd (talk) 14:10, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Good! Now it needs to be uploaded, but please let me check the copyright stuff first. Depending on who is the author and on what conditions Mr. Kivela releases this photo, it might be uploaded to Commons or, failing that, English Wikipedia. I'll get back to you in the evening... GregorB (talk) 14:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay... Plan A would be as follows:

1. we take the following declaration and fill in the blanks
2. we mail it to Mr Kivela
3. hopefully, he agrees with the terms and replies to that effect
4. someone with a Commons account uploads the photo
5. Mr Kivela mails the declaration to Wikimedia Commons.
6. the photo gets greenlighted copyright-wise

This would be the best solution. (Opening a Commons account by himself - especially if he has more photos to share - would be even better, but perhaps that's too much to ask.) However, if he does not consent to conditions set forth in the declaration form, we go to plan B (upload to English Wikipedia). GregorB (talk) 19:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Seriously, that is one hell of a list GregorB :) Sir Floyd (talk) 00:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Plan A

• Image in question: Regata for Palagruza - Komiza 1930

Declaration:

To permissions-commons(at)wikimedia.org

I hereby assert that I am the sole owner of the exclusive copyright of WORK: Regata for Palagruza - Komiza 1930 (http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=187155). I agree to publish that work under the free license GNU Free Documentation License v1.1, 1.2, 1.3. I acknowledge that I grant anyone the right to use the work in a commercial product, and to modify it according to their needs, as long as they abide by the terms of the license and any other applicable laws.

I am aware that I always retain copyright of my work, and retain the right to be attributed in accordance with the license chosen. Modifications others make to the work will not be attributed to me. I am aware that the free license only concerns copyright, and I reserve the option to take action against anyone who uses this work in a libelous way, or in violation of personality rights, trademark restrictions, etc.

I acknowledge that I cannot withdraw this agreement, and that the work may or may not be kept permanently on a Wikimedia project.

February 25, 2010, Jaksa Kivela

Sir Floyd (talk) 09:01, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

A couple of minor corrections, ready to send. GregorB (talk) 12:56, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Email sent. Sir Floyd (talk) 14:39, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

GregorB he agrees with the terms. Sir Floyd (talk) 09:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, great! Mr Kivela now has to take care of step #5. As for step #4: do you have a Commons account? I don't, that's why I wrote "someone with an account". But I know someone who has, and will ask him. GregorB (talk) 12:05, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

In fact, I might as well open it myself. I could upload some public domain stuff there that I need for other articles. OK, step #4 is mine. GregorB (talk) 12:10, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

No I don't have a Commons account. So go ahead. Where (or which) is the email for Commons for Jack to use. Sir Floyd (talk) 12:25, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

One more issue that needs to be settled: who took the photo? (I suppose Jaksa Kivela wasn't around in the 1930s.) The credit is rather important, because one presumably cannot hold copyright on a photo by an unknown author. I presume it came from the family album. GregorB (talk) 12:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

It's from the family album, is this going to be a problem. Sir Floyd (talk) 12:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Shouldn't be a problem either way. If the author is unknown, then in fact this photograph is in public domain now, because more than 70 years have passed. Still: something has to be provided in the "Author" field. GregorB (talk) 13:09, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Author unknown or Kivela Family. Sir Floyd (talk)

Will do. GregorB (talk) 14:16, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

JK needs to send the above declaration ("I hereby assert", etc.) GregorB (talk) 14:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Done! Now: JK does not have to send anything: you can just forward his response to permission-commons, and add the URL of the file (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ship_Photo_REGATA_TO_PALAGRUZA_%28ca._1925-30%29.jpg) in it. That should be it! GregorB (talk) 21:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Arrr..... I went there and did something Sir Floyd (talk) 10:26, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

As they said, you need to forward the mail where the correspondence can be seen (declaration+answer). GregorB (talk) 20:09, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok! I'll give it another try. Best Regards Sir Floyd (talk) 23:49, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Lets put this article out!

Lets put this article out! Sir Floyd (talk) 09:17, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Hello again, Sir Floyd! I'm sorry for neglecting this article a bit in the last couple of days, I was busy with a DYK candidate of my own that had a fixed deadline... Please give me a couple of days (say, until the end of this weekend) to have another go at Falkuša. BTW, what's the status of the image? It's still not cleared at Commons. GregorB (talk) 15:42, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

That's fine. I've sent a email to Permissions-commonswikimedia.org. They told me that there is a backlog but they will look into it. Sir Floyd (talk) 00:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Done my bit on the article. Not quite everything I wanted to, but it looks pretty good. I think it's ready for the move to the article space. Then: 1) a bit more work, and 2) WP:DYK nomination (within 5 days of the move). GregorB (talk) 23:18, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Good!--Grifter72 (talk) 16:09, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Excellent:) Can we at a latter stage archive the talk page? I'm very happy with this, thanks guys, Sir Floyd (talk) 00:33, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

The archive can be created manually at any time, the procedure is described at WP:ARCHIVE... GregorB (talk) 11:03, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Just had another round of tweaking and fleshing out. I'm really pleased with the progress. The last section is comparably weak, but it's just that I haven't gotten around to it yet. Will take 2-3 more hours of work or so, and then we'll get it nominated. GregorB (talk) 21:05, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

DYK hook

Any ideas about the DYK hook? What I got right now is this:

... that the fishermen of Komiža, on the island of Vis, Croatia, raced their falkuša sailboats in the oldest fishermen's regatta in Europe, held from 1593 to 1936?

Maybe other hooks could be devised too. The deadline is tomorrow... GregorB (talk) 12:52, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

• DYK that the sailboat falkuša raced in the oldest fishermen's regatta in Europe, held from 1593 to 1936 in Komiža, on the island of Vis, Croatia.

Sir Floyd (talk) 13:07, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

That's better! GregorB (talk) 13:48, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Nominated with the hook supplied. GregorB (talk) 21:24, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Regata for Palagruza - Komiza 1930

I hereby assert that I am the sole owner of the exclusive copyright of WORK: Regata for Palagruza - Komiza 1930 (http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=187155). I agree to publish that work under the free license GNU Free Documentation License v1.1, 1.2, 1.3. I acknowledge that I grant anyone the right to use the work in a commercial product, and to modify it according to their needs, as long as they abide by the terms of the license and any other applicable laws.

• I'm emailing this above to Mr Kivela & asking him politely to email it to Permissions-commonswikimedia.org. Sir Floyd (talk) 11:51, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi GregorB :) I've just sent the email to Mr Kivela. Sir Floyd (talk) 00:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, very good. It should work out... GregorB (talk) 08:07, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Mr Kivela has informed me that he has email Permissions-commonswikimedia.org the above statement. Sir Floyd (talk) 08:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Good. BTW, has he seen the article? GregorB (talk) 09:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't know? I'll ask him. Sir Floyd (talk) 11:32, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

And if he has any comments, maybe he could leave them here... GregorB (talk) 12:17, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Jaksa Kivela

Jaksa Kivela's comment on Wikipedia's article on the Falkusa: "I read the article and it is very good. I am happy with the factual issues, and it is about as much as we know of those early days" Sun,18/4/2010. Sir Floyd (talk) 07:49, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Photo

Nice touch with the photo, GregorB. I did a little tweak. Sir Floyd (talk) 09:32, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

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