Talk:Falcata/Archive 1

Archive 1

Fulgosio

I originally wrote:

The term falcata is not ancient. It seems to have been coined by M. Fulgosio in 1872, on the model of the Latin expression ensis falcatus "sickle-shaped sword" (which, however, refers to the harpe). He presumably went with falcata rather than falcatus because the Spanish word for sword, espada is feminine.

An anonymous user changed this to:

...because both the Spanish, as the Portuguese, word for sword espada is feminine.

I was going to revert that, saying that Portuguese was irrelevant here, because Fulgosio was Spanish, but then I suddenly realized that I didn't know that for sure. Googling doesn't seem to be too helpful, especially since I don't even know Mr. Fulgosio's first name. Can anyone help with this detail? --Iustinus 19:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, since Fulgosio, who ever he was, published his article where he coined the term falcata in a review called Museo Español de Antigüedades, I think it is safe to assume that Spanish was the relevant language. If someone knows more about Fulgosio, either to back this up, or to contradict it, then please do tell. --Iustinus 00:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, he was probably Spanish. I'm Portuguese and Fulgosio does not seem a Portuguese name. And he was working in a Spanish language context. The Ogre 16:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Harpe?

Iustinus, what is an Harpe? You don't mean an Harp, do you? The Ogre 16:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Nope. The harpe was a type of sword mentioned in Greek and Latin almost always in mythological contexts. Most notably it was the sword used by Perseus to decapitate the Medusa, and by Zeus to castrate Kronos. In Greek and Roman art it is variously depicted, but it seems that originally it was a khopesh-like sickle-sword. --Iustinus 18:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Iustinus, just created an article for the Harpe. Do you want to expand it? Thanks! The Ogre 14:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Some things

Pls, will be good that some body translate and includes the information in the spanish article. Its more tecnical than this one with Julius Caesar' anecdotes. I'm spanish and Fulgosio don't seem to be from here, seems more portuges...but well. Seem's to be an invented name. 'Falcata' comes from the latin term for the sickle, and its feminine because the latin word was too . You can corrobore it because all its descendents in all romanic languages for sickle are femenine too (falç, catalan; faucille : francais; falce : italian; etc...) (don't saying that is the ancient used word for the sword). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.14.76.203 (talk • contribs)

The Latin word for sickle is falx, and it is indeed feminine. But Falcata is an entirely separate word, an adjective meaning "made into the shape of a sickle, sickle-shaped, falcate" (the -atus suffix is etymologically equivalent to Spanish -ado, in case that wasn't obvious). The fact that falx is feminine cannot explain the gender of falcata, because we are not talking about a "sickle-shaped sickle" but a "sickle-shaped sword." And I'm not sure why you object to Caesar anecdotes. Technical information and anecdotal information both have their places. I wish you would be more careful about overwriting other people's work, because there was a lot of good stuff in this article. I will either have to revert your changes, or painstakingly combine what you wrote with what was already here. --Iustinus 20:22, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Translated

Have translated from spanish and rewrited the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.14.76.203 (talk • contribs)

As I note above, I have some problems with how much you removed from the article. As for what you added, well first of all, why is it probabe that the falcata influenced the gladius Hispaniensis? Metal working techniques, maybe, and the dimensions are indeed quite similar. But the shape and intended fighting technique are about as different as is possible!

Furthermore, your English leaves a lot to be desired. I mean, you probably know that, and Lord knows my Spanish could use some work. But the problem is, you have already created a huge task by incompletely merging the English and Spanish versions, destroying a lot of information in the process. If I have to correct your English too, it's really easier to just revert. (Oh, don't say "white weapon", by the way. I know that in Spanish arma blanca means a weapon of the sword family--I think in English the usual expression is "bladed weapon"--but the expression is unknown in English. Anyone who is not a sword expert will think you mean "A weapon invented by the Glorious White Race", which is obviously not your intention.) --Iustinus 20:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I Agree with Iustinus! Please User:88.14.76.203, be more humble and dialogue more. Your changes destroy al lot of links and the whole text needs to be wikified, just to sy the least! By the way, Fulgosio is a name of Italian origin and is well attested in Spain (it is even the name of one of the charaters of Leopoldo Alas "Clarín"'s La Regenta), for instances there was an historian (I presume it is not M. Fulgosio...) called Fernando Fulgosio who, in the late 1860s and early 1870s, wrote Crónica de la Provincia de Pontevedra, Crónica de las Islas Baleares and Crónica de la Provincia de Ávila, amongst other writings. He was Prime Secretary of the Ateneo Cientifico, Literario y Artistico de Madrid. Iustinus! Do your work! And thank you for your trouble and diplomacy. The Ogre 21:03, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Since I know nothing about this Fulgosio, for all I know it is the same guy. Whenever I hear the name I think of the Latin word Fulgur "lightning." I should dig up the original text of Dr. Sanz' Máchaira, kopís, falcata, which was my source on M. Fulgosio, and let you Iberians figure out who heck he is.

By the way, when you say "do your work!", which work do you mean? Editing this article? My school work? Yeah... I probably should be working on the latter ;)

Thanks for weighing in, Ogre. --Iustinus 21:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay! I think Fernando Fulgosio is the one who coined the name Falcata, and not some M. Fulgosio. Here is the bibliographical info:

Title: Enseñas Romanas en el museo arqueológico nacional (in English: Roman standards in the National Archaeological Museum)

Medium: article in a non-vexillological source

Main author(s): Fernando Fulgosio

Language: Castillian (a.k.a. Spanish)

Source title: Museo Español de Antigüedades

Source number (date): 9 (1873)

Source pages: 91-99

Source edition (publisher: place): Museo Español de Antigüedades: Madrid

~This was retrieved from Bibliography: Authorship index: sorted by full name (F-G). Hope I helped. The Ogre 21:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Same source, same surname, nearly the same date. Not technically proven, but probably good enough! --Iustinus 21:22, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

There is an article about Fulgosio called : Fernando Fulgosio y la evolución de los estudios prehistóricos en la segunda mitad del siglo XIX, by Víctor M. Renero Arribas in the Archaia: Revista de la Sociedad Española de Historia de la Arqueología, ISSN 1576-4087, Vol. 3, Nº 3-5, 2003‑2005 , pags. 165-170. The Ogre 21:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry! Fulgosio's correct article is: Fulgosio, Fernando (1872): “Armas y utensilios del hombre primitivo en el. Museo Arqueológico Nacional”. ... Museo Español de Antigüedades, I: 75-89. Madrid. The Ogre 21:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

BINGO!! Maybe I should track that article down and read it. At the very least it might be cool to quote the origin of the name in the article. --Iustinus 21:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Translate

I know that my english is very poor, because it's not my native language and don't want to speak on it no more than needed, but the HISTORICAL INFORMATION about the weapon that i put in here can be corroborated. That's is why I ask for a good translate of the spanish article, or a merge of that i did. if u think can do it better do it , but include the ideas. In this one, you only speak about that Fulgosio and about the word 'falcata',and an anecdote that speaks about Julius Caesar, while falcata sword-likes was used here from before phoenician civilization. You don't mention metallurgic. Don't mention origin. Don't mention no-militar uses. Don't mention discovereds ones. In fact u don't mention nothing except the origin of the name and mr.Fulgosio. There're a lot of good books of ancient & medieval weapons, and a lot of information of it in internet. After Second Punic wars all legion equipement (armor & weapon) were redesigned, and YES, it influenced the GLADIUS HISPANIENSIS. Perhaps >>>NOT THE SHAPE<<< that was very common (Kopir, etc....) with not-stockade weapons (like was gladius), but yes how they work the steel, and the quality of it (search for Toledo's steel, not only in ancient history, but too medieval), that was what make this weapon special, like I have explained (why u think its called hispaniensis?), and made the romans investigate for metal mines in peninsula iberica and thus a good reason to stay here. Falcata it's, yes, a separate word from 'falx'. Never has dissapoint it. U must know that a very significant number of words have keeped it's gender in all romanic languages. I had put it in here, not in the article, because that 'espada' is feminine too in spanish and portugues or the gender of the word has no sense in the article. In spanish article there are good links about this weapon. Please review it if u don't want my article, but please put the >historical< information in here, not only the origin of the word. I'm not gonna revert the article, but merge it. There had been a lot of people working in our-land' archeology and ancient history for not to in the last moment they work be raped. And if u think the best work is the easiest one....well, then do whatever u want. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.8.116.84 (talk • contribs)

Sir, I think a major part of our conflict here is that my method is very linguistic and textual, whereas yours is very archaeological. Could this article benefit from archaeological information? HELL YES. You are absolutely right that this stuff is lacking. Does this mean that linguistic and textual information is useless, extranious, not worth including? Of course not!

Furthermore it is absurd for you to impugn non-Spanish sources, as if there are no scholars ourside of Iberia. Honestly, I can't understand what you mean by "Hell all usa people only love the native words. Native words is history for you. Hope China gets u soon." ... absolutely no idea what you are trying to say. But whatever it is, it sounds awfully nasty. Please be collegial, and don't insult me just because you don't like my country. And in any case, the majority of my information comes from the article listed at the botom of the page, and Fernando Quesada Sanz is definitely a NATIVE SOURCE (and for that matter, so is Fulgosio). So if you don't like the information I have presented, it has nothing to do with what country I come from.

I'm sorry if you think the anecdote from Lucius Annaeus Seneca is irrelevant. But the fact is that the scholars who are writing today need to use a lot of speculation and inference when they write about ancient swords, whereas the Romans actually saw these things in use. Therefor, to my mind, ANY reference we can find in ancient texts is precious. I know the falcata was in use before the Romans, and if you know of any Phoenician or Ancient Iberic texts that discuss the falcata, please feel free to add them. I mean, pardon my sarcasm, but the Greeks and Romans are what we have, so it's ridiculous to call them irrelevant. Now, actually, I believe Dr. Sanz does mention an Greek text that discusses the metalurgy of Spanish swords. I should really try to translate that, because it would presumably be somethign pleasing to both of us.

As for the gender of falcata, again I cannot understand you. You may want to repeat some of your arguments in Spanish: I don't write in Castillian well enough to try, but I can read it. I can think of two possible interpretations:

1. The gender of Romance words is almost always the same as the gender of their Latin ancestor. If so, then I can only repeat my argument above: falx > falç, hoz and so on, but falcatus -a -um is a different word, so it doesn;t matter.
2. The gender of words can stay the same, despite suffixes. If that's what you mean, let me point out French fauchard, which comes from the same root, but is masculine. Furthermre, while falcata is never used by the Romans as the name of a sword, there is the expression ensis falcatus "sickle-shaped sword", which is masculine.

My point is that the reason Latin ensis falcatus became Spanish falcata is almost certainly the Spanish word espada,

...and again, I don't see why this discussion of the word's history is unworthy of inclusion. I think it's a very important point, because many seem to think that the name falcata is ancient, when in fact the term was invented very recently.

I reiterate that I agree that this article could use more archaeological information, and I would be happy to see it added (provided it is not done at the expense of the other information). I would be happy to translate the Spanish article myself, but unfortunately I have a number of projects already on my plate. If you are willing to wait a couple weeks, I could certainly do it.

--Iustinus 01:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I should also reiterate that my information on Fulgosio comes from the Sanz article as well, by a Spaniard (and, yes, in Spanish). I didn't make this up in order to smear Spain, or anything like that, I got the information from a serious, legitimate, Iberian scholar. --Iustinus 02:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, i'm going to schematize what i had wrote last time because seems u can't read.

"...in this one, you only speak about that Fulgosio and about the word 'falcata',and an anecdote that speaks about Julius Caesar, while falcata sword-likes was used here from before phoenician civilization. "

This means : the word's inclusion and anecdote is good, but insuficient, because don't speak about the object itself.

"...You don't mention metallurgic. Don't mention origin. Don't mention no-militar uses. Don't mention discovereds ones. In fact u don't mention nothing except the origin of the name and mr.Fulgosio. ..".

This means : there aren't real historical information about the weapon. So the article is empty.

"...Falcata it's, yes, a separate word from 'falx'. Never has dissapoint it. U must know .... I had put it in here, not in the article, because that 'espada' is feminine too in spanish and portugues or the gender of the word has no sense in the article. "

This means : the gender of the word has no relevant information. Why the Hell u again and again told me about from where comes the word?? perhaps is the only thing u know about the weapon?

"...In spanish article there are good links about this weapon. Please review it if u don't want my article, but please put the >historical< information in here, not only the origin of the word..."

This means : more historical and accurated information can be found in spanish article. Only must to translate.

If u compare with my first text in this page, you will see that is very similar. I'm only repeating and u, with that typical USA prepotence, simply don't listen.

Like u have said, your method is very textual and theoretical. Sure haven't seen nothing of the things u talk about, but well. I haven't said that origin of the word, etc, must not be included. I'm saying that the historical information MUST be included, NOT ONLY the origin of the word. Of course that if it can be missunderstanded the anticy of the word, must be aclared. But the article must not have 1/6 talking about the sword, 3/6 about the word 'falcata' and 2/6 about an anecdote. That u are saying with this article is: it's shape is sickle-like derived. The word was created in 1872 and it was powerful. For the 'simply-english' edition could be good, yes. But for a wide information spread like is the English wikipedia, isn't. Like you can now see, the essence is very poor. That means: MERGE (like i have said and now repeating) with historical information about the concept. I had tried to do that. My english, like u say, is worst than bad, so translate it if it's only this the problem. BUT NOT ERASE MAN!! And, if u haven't read good enough, i don't saying that foreign sources are useless. I'm saying that please read the native FIRST, because surely it gots more and more quality work, only for a natural question of nearby. If i want to know something about USA culture or history, i NATURALLY ask first to an American Historicist, and then to other sources for contrast it, but the native works sure will had more points to TRUST in them. So, if u trust in F.Quesada source, why the hell u don't put the information about the weapon in his work except the origin of the word????

Gonna schematize the history in this discussion page because this nonsense fights only are to engrande more your ego:

- Me : made tilde in Spanish article more quality information. I Dude about Fulgosio's origin. Little explanation about possible gender origin and tilde in the nosense of it in the article (had you think that this kind of weapon is a 'SABLE' or a 'MACHETE', because is not-stockade weapon like an 'ESPADA', and 'sable' and 'machete' and all cavalry / edge weapons are a masculine words?...sure Fulgosio knows so your theory is less than significative). Doing little changes.

- Iustinus : detailed explanation about the origin of the word 'falcata'. Defending anecdote (which hasn't been attacked). Explaining me differences about 'sickle-shaped sickle' and 'sickle-shaped swords'. Reverting little changes and complaining himself about my english.

- Me : translating with very bad english spanish article and including new information. Erasing existing information.

- Iustinus : doubting about influence of falcata in post-second punic war roman armament. Complaining himself about my english, saying that is easiest to revert. So he simply reverts. Comments like "...sure u don't want to say the Glorius White Race... (???)

- The ogre : Determination of the spanish origin of mr.Fulgosio.

- Iustinus : wants to read the Fulgosio' article for about quoting the origin of the name (and the article itself??? and Quesada's work not must be quoted?????)

- Me : complaining about my english. Tilde again about the historical concepts. So u don't want me to write in english, i ask to u to do it better. Not reverting. Tilde again in the emptyness of the article. Little explanation about the post-second punic war foot armament influence. Again tilde in the nosense of the gender of the word. Tilde again in the spanish article. Tilde about usa attittude. Tilde about the easiest work.

- Iustinus : understanding the difference of methods (no archeological dude but historical). Defending that the word origin must be included. Put in my mouth that i consider no worthy to put in here his work. ("Does this mean that linguistic and textual information is useless, extranious, not worth including? Of course not! " I HAVEN'T SAID NOTHING OF IT!!!IT'S ALL YOUR WORDS!) Tilde about USA (if u can't understand...note that i haven't insulted you..i only got my opinion). Tilde about the sources of information that are good (the source YES, but not the information u extracted from it! because u haven't extracted almost nothing!). Putting in my mouth that the anecdote is irrelevant (it's INSUFICCIENT!) Talking me about Greeks and Romans (with, jeje, sarcasm). Again explaining very detailed the gender's origin of the word falcata. Tilde again 'don't understand why do u thing the word work is unworthy to be included' (same as before I HAVEN'T SAID IT, I REMARKS THAT IT'S INSUFFICIENT! IT'S ALL YOUR WORDS) Complaining himself about the little time he has to translate the article.

Conclusion: falcata history must be included and 'falcata' word history must be included. must be included significant ideas.

Self Conclusion: u get angry because i deleted your work, and then try to get vengeance deleting mine and intend to provoque me. If this is true you're like a child.

action: I'm gonna merge the article. I will put a note conform it must be wikified. If u delete it again, i'm not gonna do nothing.

Probably u want to answer this. Will be useless. I'm not going to read it.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.8.116.84 (talk • contribs)

Wikify

Done some wikification of the article. Let us not be dragged into petty fighting, 88.8.116.84. The question here was not that you could not bring relevant elements to the article, but that you erased the content and form of the previous version without discussing it here, and that you do not seem very willing to talk with a cooperative atitude, unlike Iustinus. You do not need to be so angry! Calma, hombre! Vale? The Ogre 21:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, and pls excuse me my attitude. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.8.115.108 (talk • contribs)

De nada! :) The Ogre 23:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Picture

The picture on this page really needs to be vertical... it's screwing up the page layout pretty badly. I'm not photo skilled, but I might try to fix it if no one else volunteers... ناهد/(Nåhed) _speak! 18:24, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

possible turkish word

Falcata means dagger in Turkish. In contemporary language it means utility knife. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.170.138.209 (talk) 13:08, 24 November 2008 (UTC)