Talk:Faculty of Theology, Catholic University of Leuven

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From this point on this article will only deal with the Dutch-language Faculty of Theology in Leuven.

Put like that, this sentence simply wants to show that the current KUL Faculty of theology is the only heir of the ancient faculty of theology (pre-1968). This is definitely not true and from a historical point of view, two universities are the heirs of the Catholic University of Leuven (1834-1968) : the Flemish one AND the French-speaking one. JNélis (talk) 23:39, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Faculty founded in 1834

Good morning, thank you very mutch for trying to ameliorate this article. But the historical informations of this article don't are accurate. Indeed the theological faculty of Leuven is created the same time as the Catholic University of Mechelen by the bishops of Belgium with licence of Pope Gregory XVI, in the year 1834. It was a new free catholic university without links with the old university (an official university of the States of Brabant and not a privy one) and also the State University of Leuven. This article gives indeed false information to the public that hat the right to new the historical reality. The faculty traces its history back to its founding in 1834, as a part of the Catholic University of Mechlin founded the same year in the initiative of the Belgian bishops with the aurorisation of Pope Gregory XVI (Edward van Even, Louvain dans le passé et dans le présent, Louvain, 1895, p. 606 : " Par lettre collective du 14 novembre 1833, le corps épiscopal s'adressa à Grégoire XVI, à l'effet d'obtenir l'autorisation nécessaire pour ouvrir l'école. Cette autorisation fut octroyée par un bref du 13 décembre suivant. Une circulaire épiscopale, datée du 20 février 1834, annonça aux fidèles la fondation d'une Université catholique ".) and then as a part of the Catholic University of Leuven when the Catholic University of Mechlin moved in Louvain in 1835 after the abolition of the State University of Louvain in 1835. A sentence such as "The faculty traces its history back to its founding in 1432, with a hiatus between 1797 and 1834 due to the French Revolution" his historicaly inexact. The French Revolution was far away, we are in the Directoire. The faculty was abolished in the Directoire by a decree of the Departement of the Dijle in application of the Laws democratically voted in the Assemblée Générale after the creation of the Ecole Centrale of Brussels only legal heir of the Old University. The University of Leuven consequently was abolished by decree of the Department of the Dyle on 25 October 1797 in application of the laws of 3 brumaire year IV and 7 ventôse an III (25 February 1795) and the decree of the Convention of 15 septembre 1793 (Emiel Lambert and Jan Roegiers (dir.), Leuven University, Leuven : Leuven University Press, 1990, p. 31 : "With the Law of 3 Brumaire of Year IV, which reorganized higher education in the French Republic, there was no place for the University of Louvain, and it was abolished by Decree of the Departement of the Dijle on 25 October. The university colleges were closed on 9 November, and all items of use, with all of the books, were requisitioned for the new 'Ecole Centrale' in Brussels".). All the other Universities of France ware legaly abolished also, and not only Leuven in application of this law. The public has the right to now those real facts, the date 1834 and the name of pope Gregory must then bee reintroduced in the article.--Viator (talk) 06:32, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

As far as I know the faculty was REcreated in 1834, not created. The public has right on the documented facts, not on your personal opinion. The Banner talk 19:04, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

The Old University was an official university of the States of Brabant, the new Catholic University of Mechelen was only a privy and free university, without any continuity with the old university. The historical site of the Catholic University of Louvain says "*1834 – Création d’une université libre catholique à Malines" and not "REcreation" : *1834 – Création d’une université libre catholique à Malines. * 1835 – L'université catholique prend la suite de l'Université d'état qui est supprimée par la loi universitaire du 25 septembre réglant l'enseignement dans la Belgique indépendante depuis 1830".Selon le site historique de l'UCL : ".--Viator (talk) 07:06, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Hello, let's take this from the start. I don't know if you have fully grasped the meaning of the phrase traces its history back to its founding in 1432. That doesn't imply this faculty was created in that year, it only means that it stands within a tradition of having such a faculty in that university. And as far as I know, although I'm no expert on the history of the KUL, the university has always had a theological faculty. Since its inception. The logo even bears the year 1425! So that opening line seems perfectly natural to me. It shouldn't stand in the way of further details being added on the exact nature of the faculty, or the motions it has gone through throughout its history, as is detailed in the same way you describe it on WP.NL. But I don't understand why you are havin a problem with that opening statement.

The same remark goes for the line on the French Revolution. I admit it's a bit of a sloppy and incomplete way of describing that part of its history, but it merely refers to the aftermath of the Revolution (whether it be la Terreur, la Convention, le Directoire or le Consulat), not to the Revolution itself. So linguistically that line is fine, although I agree it should be stated more clearly that it was the closure of the university under the Directoire which was at the heart of the interruption of the faculty's operations. --Midas02 (talk) 02:11, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

N.B. Confusion in the words : La Terreur was not a constitutional form of the Republic as the "Monarchie Constitutionnelle (with king Louis XVI)", the Convention of the Directoire, it was a power abuse of Robespierre and the Jacobins in the time of the First Republic. The Revolution finish in the time of the Convention with the stabilisation of the Republic and the elective democratical systeme now established in all the constitutions of the world, also in the monarchic regimes with a parlement.--Viator (talk) 07:25, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

The catholic university founded in Mechelen (then called of Louvain) in 1834 is not the same university, then you cannot speak of "tradition with the old university". That's only a not founded affirmation. The Ecole Centrale of Brussels was the legal heir (all the Archives of the Old University ware preserved and conserved in Brussels, now "Memory of the world)). But you don't speak over the State University of Leuven also closed in 1835 by a democratic law voted in the Parliament as the old university) '(damnatio memoriae???) where a number of professors of the old university have continued her lectures, this university has then a continuation with the old. But not any professor of the old university was professor in the catholic university of Mechelen or Leuven. The new free catholic university of Leuven don't have any continuation, never human never legal, with the old university--Viator (talk) 07:19, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Except the tradition, what makes it a recreation. The Banner talk 10:09, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

It is not a REcreation but the creation of a totally new catholic university, first in Mechelen (1834) then in Leuven (1835) by the bishops of Belgium and Pope Gregory XVI in 1834. I give you here a judgment of the Court d'Appel of Belgium, according to which the new "Catholic University of Mechlin" then renamed to "Catholic University of Leuven" does not have legally the right to pretend to be the continuation of the Old University of Leuven, according to this ruling and motivation of the Belgian Cour d'Appel of 1844: La Belgique Judiciaire, 28 July 1844 n° 69, p. 1 : Cour d’Appel de Bruxelles. Deuxième chamber : "L'université libre de Louvain ne représente pas légalement l’antique université de cette ville. Attendu que cette université (l’ancienne Université de Louvain), instituée par une bulle papale, de concert avec l'autorité souveraine, formait un corps reconnu dans l'État, ayant différentes attributions, dont plusieurs même lui étaient déléguées par le pouvoir civil; Attendu que ce corps a été supprimé par les lois de la république française; Attendu que l'université existant actuellement à Louvain ne peut être considérée comme continuant celle qui existait en 1457, ces deux établissemens ayant un caractère bien distinct, puisque l'université actuelle, non reconnue comme personne civile, n'est qu'un établissement tout-à-fait privé, résultat de la liberté d'enseignement , en dehors de toute action du pouvoir et sans autorité dans l'État". translation : "The Free University of Louvain don't legally represent the ancient university of that city. Whereas this university (the former University of Louvain), established by a papal bull, together with the sovereign authority, formed a body recognized by the State, having different responsibilities, of whom many even he was delegated by the civil power ; Whereas this body has been removed by the laws of the French Republic; Whereas the currently existing university in Leuven can not be regarded as continuing that which existed in 1457, these two establishments have a distinctive character, since the current university not recognized as a civil person, is only one all-private outcome of academic freedom, apart from any action of the power and without power and authority in the State.--Viator (talk) 12:03, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Legally it is perhaps a new entity but without the tradition and the prior existence of a university, it is unlikely that a new university would have been created in Louvain. The Banner talk 13:12, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Two new Universities ware created in Louvain the State University of Louvain, were a number of professors of the Old University have taught and the Catholic University of Mechelen established only in the year 1835 in Louvain, it was a privy university. If you say that the privy University is the heir of the Old University, why to denegate the fact that also the State University should then be it's heir. Louvain was famous as University town and therefore the Catholic University of Mechelen had choise to move in Louvain (after the abolition of the State University of Louvain), but it hat no common tradition. The simple fact to create an university in a town were long ago it was a famous university don't give the right to pretend that this new one should be the continuation of the older. And also why in this article to censure the date 1834 and the image of Pope Gregory XVI, the founder of the catholic university with the Belgian bishops, why can this fact not be published ? the reader is not informed, he sees only the date 1432 and never he can read the foundation date of 1834, why to abolish this historical facts ? That likes to be a censure? why to abolish this sourced part and this picture :

Pope Gregory VI founder with the Belgian bishops of the Catholic university of Louvain and his Faculty of Theology.

Off topic, but by using the word privy, I assume you mean privé? Just be careful as privy actually means secret, although people as myself naturally interpret it by its more popular meaning of latrine, which gives the text a strange twist. The word you are probably looking for is private. --Midas02 (talk) 02:30, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

ABOLISHED CONTRIBUTION : The Leuven Faculty of Theology and Religious Studies, was a branch of the Catholic University of Leuven. The faculty traces its history back to its founding in 1834, as a part of the Catholic University of Mechlin founded the same year in the initiative of the Belgian bishops with the autorisation of Pope Gregory XVI (Edward van Even, Louvain dans le passé et dans le présent, Louvain, 1895, p. 606 : " Par lettre collective du 14 novembre 1833, le corps épiscopal s'adressa à Grégoire XVI, à l'effet d'obtenir l'autorisation nécessaire pour ouvrir l'école. Cette autorisation fut octroyée par un bref du 13 décembre suivant. Une circulaire épiscopale, datée du 20 février 1834, annonça aux fidèles la fondation d'une Université catholique ") and then as a part of the Catholic University of Leuven when the Catholic University of Mechlin moved in Louvain in 1835 after the abolition of the State University of Louvain in 1835.

I think that an argument as "This French activism has gone far enough, this is English Wikipedia, not French Wikipedia", is not enough historically and scientifically serious, for removing proved facts.--Viator (talk) 16:57, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Removing nonsense is always allowed. And that is unfortunately what you add to the article. The Banner talk 21:14, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Which nonsense? I give only sourced dates and historical facts.--Viator (talk) 07:21, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

To be honest, you are not giving me a lot of leeway. I tried to leave you an opening, but you immediately start nitpicking again on every word I write, like you did on La Terreur. It is clear from that reaction, and the way you start hammering it down again, that your English language skills are just not good enough to be editing here, because you seem to be missing nuances and are using that to start unnecessary controversy. On top of that, this is an article about a Flemish university, so Dutch Wikipedia should be a good reference point. But the very first changes you make completely go against the rather balanced statements I read over there. It all doesn't paint a very rosy picture of what you're trying to accomplish here. As I stated before, I don't have a problem with balanced edits being made, but your behaviour suggests otherwise.--Midas02 (talk) 02:30, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I think only that it is necessary to speak over the foundation in Mechelen in 1834, by the bishops of Belgium and to give an exact description of the facts : suppression of the State University, etc.. But if you think that has non importance I leash the article in state. My sources are "Leuven University" (dir. Jan Roegiers), Van Even etc. I am trying nothing to do, only to give more exact informations and not only a short cut of the complex historical facts of this time. Thank you for your attention.--Viator (talk) 07:21, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

1834-1968

Clarification is needed whether this article concerns the Faculty of Theology of the Catholic University of Louvain (until 1968), the Faculty of Theology and Religious Studies the Katholieke Universiteit Leuven or the Faculty of Theology of the Université catholique de Louvain. As these faculties are based in different cities and both continue the first Faculty of Theology, this article would need an important update. --PCC7500 (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Wikidata distinguishes the 3 different faculties. This article is mainly about the 1834-1968 entity in Leuven, of the Catholic University of Leuven/Louvain, which split in 1968. The article's name is confusing since it uses the modern day KU Leuven name for the faculty, but the old Catholic University of Leuven name for the university.--LeGraphiste (talk) 22:21, 17 July 2019 (UTC)