Talk:Extraordinary State Commission

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Trophy Commission section

The section "Soviet Trophy Brigades" appears to be off topic in the article. I propose removal of this section. Would there be any objectives? K.e.coffman (talk) 20:22, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

They were also part of the Extraordinary State Commission. Please read their full official title. Poeticbent talk 20:41, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see in the article that these brigades were part of the State Commission. The topic is introduced thus:

Already in 1942 the special Red Army Trophy Brigades were formed by the Russians with yet another grossly elongated name as the "Extraordinary State Commission on the Registration and Investigation of the Crimes of the German-Fascists Occupiers and their Accomplices and the Damage done by Them to the Citizens, Collective Farms, Public Organizations, State Enterprises and Institutions of the USSR". They were put in charge of removing valuables from Germany and other occupied territories and taking them back to the Soviet Union. The organization made responsible for receiving and cataloging these items was the "Commission on Reception and Registration of Trophy Valuables". It was established just before the war's end in April 1945.

I don't see a statement linking the two, but a comparison: "yet another grossly elongated name as the "Extraordinary Commission..." ".

There's discussion on "Commission on Reception..." but this appears to be a different commission established in 1945. Am I reading this wrong? K.e.coffman (talk) 20:53, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The paragraph you quote (per above) could be rephrased for clarity I think. The article title is Extraordinary State Commission, and so is the Extraordinary State Commission on the Registration and Investigation of the Crimes of the German-Fascists Occupiers and their Accomplices and the Damage done by Them to the Citizens. The commissions were plural and so were their missions, both within the same framework. Poeticbent talk 21:18, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The section still seems to be discussing a separate topic, I think. This article is about one commission, as described in the lead "fully: "Extraordinary State Commission for ascertaining and investigating crimes perpetrated by the German–Fascist invaders and their accomplices, and the damage inflicted by them on citizens, collective farms, social organisations, State enterprises and institutions of the U.S.S.R."", not about the "Commission on Reception..." or "Red Army Trophy Brigades". The article does not state the the brigades were part of the commission in question. That's why this section appears to be off-topic.

Here's an article on the topic of the Trophy brigades: Spoils of War: The Soviet Union’s Hidden Art Treasures. The topic appears to have very little to do with the "Extraordinary commission for investigation of crimes..."

Here's the relevant passage:

Before the war was over, the Council of Peoples Commissars established an Extraordinary Commission to investigate the crimes of the Nazis in the Soviet Union. According to the report of this commission, during four years of war the Nazis had removed, destroyed, or damaged 564,723 museum objects with a value of 5,002,570,000 gold rubles (about $1.25 billion).

The fate of most of these objects is unknown. Very few were found in the Russian-occupied zone of Germany. The search for them after the war was not very energetic, perhaps because the Russians believed that they had compensated themselves with the objects they had taken from Germany.

The first plan of compensation for Soviet losses was developed by the Extraordinary Commission. According to memoirs of the period, Igor Grabar, a prominent painter, art historian, and restorer who took an active part on the commission, proposed a plan of “equal compensation” whereby objects that had disappeared or been destroyed would be replaced by equivalent ones. If, for example, the Germans had stolen a painting by Hans Baldung Grien, they would have to return one by, say, Lucas Cranach the Younger. But Soviet officials chose another plan. They would simply take everything.

The article then goes on to describe the work of the "Trophy Commission" and so on. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:07, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, K.e.coffman. The new link (per above) makes for a very good reading. I revised the article accordingly, Poeticbent talk 14:53, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This section still look like a coatrack to me. For example: "Already in 1942 the special Red Army Trophy Brigades were formed by the USSR. They were put in charge of removing valuables from occupied territories including Germany..." In 1942, the Wehrmacht was almost in Asia, there were no trophies to be had for several years. What is the connection between the Trophy Brigades and the Extraordinary commission? K.e.coffman (talk) 04:10, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying my best here ... just like you do. The article is a mess. I'm unable to confirm the dates and many of the facts. To me, the term Trophy Brigades is a postwar pro-Western destination of the second Extraordinary commission mentioned in the lede. It is one and the same thing. The Soviets were engaged in the World War II looting of Poland following the invasion of 1939. I'm not sure what agency was in charge of that, and whether it was the same one. Poeticbent talk 05:10, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Second Extraordinary State Commission

I am afraid this statement is based on a misreading of the sources cited. In particular, a ref to Konstantin Akinsha and Grigorii Kozlov says that the "ESC on Nazi Crimes" (a not some otherways titled sommission) dis the job. And a reference to Erik Nemeth merely says that Igor Grabar suggested the ESC to keep an eye on the arts. Please review. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:52, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the alleged name "Extraordinary State Commission of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR" is meaningless: full name of any commission contains its purpose. For example the best known Soviet "Extraordinary Commission" while commonly known as "Cheka" and colloquially "chrezvychajka" in early years, has its full name fully functional. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:59, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So perhaps there was only one and the same 'commission' set up to resolve everything including both the crimes inflicted on citizens, and looting of museums and libraries. It was called the Extraordinary Commission, period. According to Artnews.com (quote): "the Council of Peoples Commissars established an Extraordinary Commission to investigate the crimes of the Nazis in the Soviet Union. According to the report of this commission, during four years of war the Nazis had removed, destroyed, or damaged 564,723 museum objects... The first plan of compensation... was developed by the Extraordinary Commission... But Soviet officials chose another plan. They would simply take everything." [emphasis mine] Cienciala writes in her book Katyn: A Crime Without Punishment: "Nikolai Burdenko, a member of the Special State Commission for Investigating the Crimes of the German Fascist Aggressors, had written a letter to Molotov. He said that his comparison of the German method of shooting 200 Soviet citizens at Orel... with the method used at Katyn... had convinced him the Germans had murdered the Polish officers..." We already know that that was a lie. But various historians write about the Extraordinary Commission with regard to both the crimes inflicted on citizens, and looting. In other words, nothing is "off-topic" in this article. Because the Soviets themselves lumped everything together, German atrocities, their own Katyn executions, and bilateral (first German, and then Soviet) looting dubbed 'compensation' for the former. Poeticbent talk 19:37, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Naming

Shouldn't the article be named with the full name of the Commission? As it stands, it is too easy for a casual reader to confuse it with ЧК (the NKVD predecessor, its abbreviation standing for "Extraordinary Commission"). 213.87.132.77 (talk) 03:04, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]