Talk:Evelyn Mase/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: CaroleHenson (talk · contribs) 07:12, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am looking forward to working on this article. I am surprised no one has elected to review it so far.–CaroleHenson (talk) 07:12, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

General comment

I like this article, it provides insight into Mandela's first marriage that is rarely talked about. You have a nice writing style that I like. I have provided some comments to tweak it and make the content a little crisper and clearer.

There is a fair amount, though, of statements about what people think, which is not encyclopedic content. See the initial paragraph under WP:ENCYCLOPEDIC CONTENT and items #3 under WP:NOTGOSSIP. The article should be about the nature and milestones of her life, and not what others think and feel about her life.

There are also some places where there is extraneous detail. See WP:DETAIL. The detail should be removed or put into notes.

There are a lot of quotes, which would normally be a problem, but I like the ones that provide meaningful insight into Mase or Mase's relationship with Mandela. (i.e., it is best to keep the ones with punch and meaningful content and remove the ones that don't.)–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:40, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I really like this article and would be happy to help with edits if you'd like. If interested, just let me know what you'd like me to take on.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:32, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Intro and infobox

Working as a nurse, she also trained on a midwifery course. is a bit awkward. How about something like: "Working as a nurse, she also trained to be a midwife" or "Working as a nurse, she took a midwifery course."

Both of your proposed alternatives are a clear improvements. I've gone with the former, although the latter would work just as well. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:27, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

She initially filed for divorce, but withdrew this request. It was more than a request and is used again in a couple of sentences. Instead of request, how about filing, action, or something else?

I'm happy with a replacement for "request" but not sure what we could go with. I think "action" could work, so will go for this. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:27, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mase did not contest his request. Same thing here. It sounds better as "Mase did not contest the divorce", but perhaps you were concerned about using divorce too many times. Any thoughts that would be stronger than request?

I've changed this to simply "Mase did not contest this." Do you think that works? Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:27, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I added a few links here, feel free to remove them if you disagree.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:14, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll revert the adding of a wikilink to Thembekile Mandela, if you don't mind, as that simply operates as a redirect to Nelson Mandela anyway. It's always possible we could create an article for Thembekile, but there is not much information about him out there and it might be considered too niche a topic. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:27, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I realized after I added it that he lived a short life. Makes sense to me!–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This section looks good and is Done. Thanks for your work on it.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

I am a little confused about her parents. Do you have their names? Did her parents get divorced while she was a little girl? Or, was she the daughter of the second wife?

I haven't come across either of her parents' names in any of the Reliable Sources that I have seen. Perhaps additional research in future will reveal this information. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:38, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Was she one of the three surviving children? So, there was Sam, Evelyn, and another child? Do you know the name of the other child?

She must have been one of the three survivors; do you think this needs to be made clearer in the text? As with the situation regarding the parents, unfortunately I have not come upon the third siblings; name in any Reliable Sources. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:38, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If there is any way to make it clearer, if you know, whether her mother was the first or second wife, that would be good. I tried searching around and I couldn't find more information about her early days. One source also stated that little was known about her life before she met Mandela.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:39, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Walter Sisulu, they were also related, with their respective mothers being sisters.[6] They were first cousins, right? Instead of saying that they were related, it would be clearer to say like "they were first cousins, as their mothers were sisters."?
Do you know where Evelyn lived until she joined her brother in Johannesburg?

Unfortunately not. There's a lot about Mase's early life that I don't think ay historians have delved into. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:38, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is cleaner and simpler to say "She trained" rather than "She started training"

Agreed and changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:38, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding There, she befriended Walter's girlfriend Albertina, whom he had met in 1941 and whom marry in 1944. it is cleaner and more grammatically correct to say "whom he met in 1941 and married in 1944."

Another good point. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:38, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly, "Mase would be a bridesmaid" is better as "Mase was a bridesmaid".

Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:38, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Since you are not talking about other hospital workers, "also" is not needed in At the hospital she also worked alongside.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:49, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Removed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:38, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am marking this section as Done, too. But if you know if her mother is the second wife or not, that would be good to clarify.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:43, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Marriage and life with Mandela

Regarding Mandela visited her in Durban at least once;[28] when in the city he stayed in the home of Fatima and Ismail Meer.[29] the second half of the sentence needs to be reworded. Perhaps reduced to "staying in the home of Fatima and Ismail Meer."

Agreed and changed Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:28, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Only God needs to be capitalized in God Has Rested Her Soul–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:14, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:28, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This section is Done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 12:40, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Growing marital tensions

I am not sure what the value is of Later commenting on her conversion, Mandela wrote that "whether this was due to some dissatisfaction with her life at the time, I do not know".[28], particularly as there are already so many quotes in the article.

You're right. It's not adding much. It can go. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:36, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The wording, which crosses two paragraphs could be tightened up. Mandela also claimed that they argued over their respective attempts to promote their views to their children; Mandela encouraging them to embrace African nationalist opinions and Mase seeking to convert them into Jehovah's Witnesses.[41] The biographer David James Smith later argued that Mandela's presentation of their marital problems as deriving from a conflict between his politics and her religion was "not quite the whole story".[42]

In his autobiography, Mandela claimed that he would often attend political meetings late at night and that this led Mase to accuse him of having an extra-marital affair.[43] In the book, his use of language implied that her accusations were untrue.[44]

I am not seeing the value of the quote from David James Smith.
The sentence In the book, his use of language implied that her accusations were untrue.[44] could be boiled down to "Mandela implied that he did not have extra-marital affairs."

I would like to keep the Smith quote in some form, as it demonstrates that Mandela biographers have not wholly endorsed Mandela's own claims. I have however cut down the length of this sentence, to make it sharper. I've also trimmed back the second sentence you highlight here, although have gone with slightly different wording than that which you propose so that we don't have two consecutive sentences ending in "extra-marital affairs." Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:36, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okay.–CaroleHenson (talk) 12:43, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Mase told Walter Sisulu about the affairs; this angered Mandela, who did not want news of his infidelity broadcast publicly. - "broadcast publicly" doesn't seem quite right - Sisulu was a good friend of the family, and broadcast publicly sounds like someone was speaking about it on the radio or tv. How about something like "shared with others".

Looks good. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:36, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding According to Mandela's autobiography, in 1955 Mase presented him with an ultimatum: either he gave up his political activism or she would leave him. To keep the ultimatum in the same tense how about "he had to either give up his political activism or she would leave him."

That works. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:36, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding The Sisulus were upset by this, with Walter trying to talk to Mandela about it; this angered him.[51] According to his autobiography, in December 1956, the police arrested Mandela and imprisoned him for two weeks before he was allowed out on bail. Returning home, he found that Mase had left him and taken their children with her.[52] At this point, Mandela stated, Mase temporarily moved in with her brother.[53] Scrutinising this account of events, Smith noted that this chronology did not match that from other sources. Thus, Smith related that, as far as he could tell, "that scene [of Mandela coming out of prison to find his wife had left him] never happened".[54]

All of this boils down to: "Mase had left him and taken their children with her.[52] At this point, Mandela stated, Mase temporarily moved in with her brother.[53]" (I am assuming that this part is correct.)
Since it is extraneous detail that doesn't really add to his biography, the rest should be removed or perhaps put in a note.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:42, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This section looks better, thanks, and is Done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 12:43, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Divorce

Except for the few beginning and the one ending statement of the paragraph, the rest should be removed. This is extraneous detail that is not encyclopedic content. Instead, she claimed that Mandela had deserted her in February 1955 and then physically assaulted her in July, August, and October of that year, and again in February 1956 after she refused to leave their house.[55] She added that in March 1956 he had threatened to kill her with an axe unless she left his house. She stated that she then took refuge with a neighbour before moving in with her brother.[56] Mase's claims of assault would never be subjected to scrutiny in court;[54] Smith later noted that it is "entirely possible that Evelyn imagined all those stories of assault, out of malice or revenge, but the fact she alluded to them outside the divorce papers and that the neighbours were involved, lends at least some credence to her account."[57] It should be removed, or perhaps put into a note.

Perhaps "In addition, he claimed that his children were presently looking dirty and neglected at Sam Mase's overcrowded home, where Evelyn and her children were cohabiting with Sam, his wife, and their four children.[56]"

It could follow " as opposed to two miles from Sam Mase's house."
get reworded to ", where Evelyn and her children were cohabiting with Sam, his wife, and their four children. Mandela claimed that his children were presently looking dirty and neglected.[56]"

How can the mother take care of the children, I thought she returned to Transkei. Did she come back when he was getting a divorce?–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:00, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, I'm not really sure on this one. I've recorded what the Reliable Sources say, but they don't give any particular clarity on this point. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:12, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This paragraph has a lot of extraneous detail A hearing was arranged, but postponed. In the meantime, Mandela was given custody of his sons on the provision that Mase would have access to them.[58] On 5 November 1956 Mase then withdrew her petition, offering no explanation why.[58] It is probable that Mandela and Mase had come to a personal arrangement. Smith thought that Mase was hoping for reconciliation with her husband, while Mandela wanted to avoid a public divorce hearing which would damage his standing in the ANC.[58] Their children went back and forth between the two homes over the coming months.[60] Mandela later acknowledged that their children were emotionally traumatised by the separation.[61] Despite living apart, Mase continued to view her and Mandela as being a married couple.[60]

Perhaps something like: "Mase and Mandela separated, and Mandela had custody of their sons with visitation by Mase. Mase withdrew her petition for divorce, and although separated, considered herself married to Mandela."[58][60][61] Smith thought that Mase was hoping for reconciliation with her husband, while Mandela wanted to avoid a public divorce hearing which would damage his standing in the ANC.[58]–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:45, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've used your proposed wording as a basis, although added a few extra details in; such as the month during which Made withdrew her petition. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:12, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This section looks better, and is Done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 12:46, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Later life

Regarding Mase was a disciplinarian informed by her religious values; she for instance forbade them from watching films.

Is there another word for informed, perhaps "guided"?

I've gone with "influenced", which might be a better option. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:52, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand how the example ties back to her values. Can you provide a little more information about what she found objectionable about all films?

Unfortunately I don't think the source specified exactly what it was about films which she found objectionable. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:52, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Mase later revealed that she travelled there.. "revealed that she" is not needed.

Agreed and removed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:52, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Second paragraph, what do you think of bad feelings between her and Evelyn being changed to something like "discord with Mase" that is a little more specific and uses the name used for Mase throughout the article?

Good idea. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:52, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What does Winnie was not passing any of it to Mase's offspring.[67] mean? Was Winnie supposed to give the money to Mase and she didn't? If it is not clear that Mandela did not support his children, this sentence is essentially gossip / extraneous and not of encyclopedic value.

I've reworded this as the following: "However, some members of Mase's family believed that Winnie was preventing them from receiving financial support that Mandela had arranged for them." Do you think that works okay? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:52, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These sentences do not add value to the article (are extraneous) and not of encyclopedic tone:

Some members of Mase's family blamed Winnie for breaking up Mandela's first marriage, although Mandela had already separated from Mase prior to meeting Winnie.[63]
Mase's children also expressed some bitterness to Mandela himself.[72]–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:40, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be happy to reword these sentences but I do think that they have a place in the article, because they have been given coverage in top-quality reliable sources. The information isn't just taken from more sensationalistic elements of the press. For readers of Wikipedia, I think that it also has value in illustrating the sort of discord that existed within Mandela's family, in part caused by his actions. There's no clear reason, in my mind, in shielding readers from that. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:52, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okay.–CaroleHenson (talk) 12:48, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This section looks better and is Done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 12:48, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Considerations

You may want to consider adding / summarizing / paraphrasing some of these:

Marriage second paragraph: Mase supported Mandela while he studied law, per [1]. “Without Evelyn’s encouragement and assurance that she would always be there to keep the home fires burning he [Nelson] would not have made it” [11] [2]
Something from here: "In an interview just after the general election which saw Mr Mandela elected as the country's first black president, she said she had not seen him since he had been released from prison, but she knew "the people love him very much". "When I go to their houses to talk to them about Jehovah, I always see his picture on the walls. His strength has come from God. "God uses people to do his work even if they are not righteous.", per [3].
She lived in Mzimhlophe in Soweto after she married Rakeepile[4]
One year after her death, "Makgatho who had HIV/Aids, passed away on the 6 January 2005" and the "Makaziwe was the only child still alive from her marriage with Mandela"[5]
Paraphrasing and summarizing this would make for a lovely Legacy section: "It is a worthwhile consideration that the reason little or scant interest is taken in Mase’s life, is because her relations with Nelson Mandela remains a blotch on his saint-like legacy. Her voice is almost non-existent for our historical archives. For all the qualities that stood out about her – religion, domesticity, passivity and anti-political nature – it was also the strength of these qualities that enabled Mandela to develop his career and educational aspirations. However, beyond her contribution to Mandela’s life, this was a woman who was strong in her own right in that she maintained a career and her household financially and emotionally whilst married and later as a single mother who was able to continue providing for her children – roles that Mandela was unable to fulfil sufficiently."[6]
Evelyn paid for their education at private schools in Swaziland, but due to the apartheid she was not able to travel with them to the schools.[7]
Expand the boiling water threat with the reason for that, paraphrasing and summarizing: "In 1952, Evelyn spent several months in Durban training to become a midwife, while her husband's mother and sister took care of the children. Meredith reports that Evelyn returned to find Mandela's secretary installed in her home. Evelyn, a tough woman, threatened to throw boiling water over her and the woman left the house, but the affair continued."[8]
Perhaps add / paraphrase "She wanted the family to return to the Transkei, where Mandela could take his place in the local Xhosa aristocracy."[9]
In the intro, her names should include Evelyn Mandela and Evelyn Rakeepile, per "She remained a Mandela until 1998, when she married a fellow Jehovah's Witness and retired Sowetan businessman, Simon Rakeepile."[10]–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:31, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These were just suggestions and are not necessary. I think some round out our interpretation of Mase, like the context of why she threatened to throw boiling water on one of Mandela's ladies. Perhaps you will think about them later.–CaroleHenson (talk) 12:51, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

Comments

Thanks for your edits, the article looks good and I really enjoyed reading it, Midnightblueowl. I appreciate your thoughtfulness in receiving the feedback, and holding firm on some items that you felt did not improve the article. I think it looks great now and I will list as a GA article now.–CaroleHenson (talk) 12:59, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Carole; thank you. I really appreciate your time in reading through this article and offering such a thorough review. I was actually planning on responding to your other comments in the next few days - I haven't had much time for Wikipedia over the past few weeks so haven't been able to respond to everything all in one go. Even though the article has been passed as a GA, I'm happy to keep responding to some of your queries, if you like? All the best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:28, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that would be lovely, Midnightblueowl. I will watch out for them. It was very much my pleasure to review this article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 13:32, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]