Talk:Ethel Cain

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 September 2021 and 23 October 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Catpawhs.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Ethel cain shot for W mag by matthew tomasi, 2022.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Ethel-Cain-Licensed-image-2.jpg

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Pre-Ethel Cain projects

There is absolutely no need to mention any music released prior to August 2019 on this page in any more detail than a sentence or two. Any EPs released under previous aliases have been deliberately removed from streaming and only exist on the internet as unauthorized fan uploads. Every artist has music they made prior to "making it big" and next to none of them have it all listed on their Wikipedia pages in such great detail. It serves no purpose for that information to be on here. Much of it is unsourced and inaccurate. All of it is unnecessary. Attempts to keep this info on this page after the subject has repeatedly stated her wishes to have it removed is a petty attack and feels rooted in transphobia. 38.20.197.121 (talk) 04:34, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello. The content you removed is in no way unsourced or inaccurate, it's part of Hayden Anhedönia's discography, you deliberately removed content that was adequately sourced with reference links to the music releases on streaming services. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and as such we strive to keep it as accurate as possible. This is not an attack, let alone a transphobic one. SubtleSylph (talk) 05:39, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Regardless, this content is irrelevant. It is not possible to access most of Anhedönia's previous music, and she has mentioned that she does not acknowledge her previous art as part of her career, and would like it to be kept separate. Please respect the feelings of artists. Even with these songs being officially released before, they are now rare and of little to no significance compared to the rest of her career. Making these songs so public is rather cruel and unnecessary. This has gone on too long. Any mention of her old aliases and old art not pertaining to her current, much more relevant, stage of her career, should be promptly deleted as to ensure her privacy and keep this article relevant. 216.164.105.164 (talk) 03:03, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I ask for someone to take this into account and make such changes. I am not experienced with editing Wikipedia pages and will not bother to do so. Any mention of Anhedönia's career prior to Ethel Cain must be removed, and the decision to do so must be respected. This article should be locked if people persist on adding irrelevant information. 216.164.105.164 (talk) 03:07, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

The editor "Papermassacred" appears to be the artist herself, and is constantly watching, editing and vandalising the page to be more positive about Cain

The wikipedia user Papermassacred has an edit history dating back to 2018 - including the creation of this page - and their edits are mostly on this page or related to it. They're editing history appears slanted towards presenting a more positive image of Cain (particuarly any attempts to outline projects by Cain prior to their current public persona, despite that being common biographical information for artists) and have recieved warnings for edit wars on this page.

Their username "Papermassacred" is the same as the artist Cain's Instagram/social media handles from about 2017/2018 and although there's a small chance a particularly committed fan would name themselves after their favourite artist's one-time social media handle, it's much more likely this is a case of a celebrity editing their own Wikipedia page which is against wiki guidelines. I intend to raise this with mods to stop the vandalism unless someone can prove otherwise? Cliffordben1994 (talk) 08:00, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello! Ethel Cain said in the past that she created her own Wikipedia page (on a now-deleted Discord server she had). I've been watching this page since I noticed she deleted a whole section of the article, she's been warned and hasn't edited anything else since. SubtleSylph (talk) 22:40, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

@SubtleSylph Hey friend, I'm now going to watch this page as well so you're not alone 😅 I noticed that many many IP accounts keep trying to add non-free images to the page, and to me that sort of copyright violation endangers Wikipedia as a whole.

I have never actually listened to this performer as I'm getting old and unhip, lol, but I might end up doing so just out of my little copyright protection crusade here. I noticed that all of your contributions to the page have been solidly within the norms of en.wiki, at least as I understand them, so thanks for that, and high five for an open knowledge commons! Chiselinccc (talk) 14:17, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

social media section

where did the section on her multiple presences on social media go? Fourthandfremont (talk) 05:14, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Are we going to talk about the fact that her last name is definitely NOT Anhedönia?

In case you don't know, "Anhedönia" is a disorder describing "lack of interest, enjoyment or pleasure from life's experiences". It is not a last name. It's clearly part of Cain's alter-ego, given the similarity between the term and her moody, melancholic music. That's fine, but this fact should be marked, and we shouldn't be listing Anhedönia as her "birth name."

Of course, the realm of "birth names" is delicate for a bio of any trans person. So, the wiki article should be respectful, but at least accurate. Treelibrary (talk) 08:57, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. I thought "Anhedönia" was an unlikely surname at birth, but I didn't see anything in the sources to provide an accurate one. _signed, Willondon (talk) 14:33, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Her birth surname is Horner. As far as I'm aware, she said she legally changed it to Anhedönia after coming out as trans (sadly I don't have any archived links of this). She recently changed her Facebook profile name to Hayden Horner, so I'm not sure if her legal name is Anhedönia or Horner nowadays. SubtleSylph (talk) 23:14, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I had a similar thing happen in the talk section of the SOPHIE page… Also, I’m a little confused as to wikipedia’s double standards on public info. Whether that be in regard to people who are trans or not. For example they don’t let you cite the California birth index for people born there. When it’s quite literally public information. And also isn’t the point of Wikipedia to be transparent! and not to conceal peoples real names and such… reminds me of another artist’s page… mxmtoon.

then in regards to trans artist’s wikipedia page’s. I questioned why the birth surname of Long wasn’t found anywhere on Sophie’s page. Despite it being well documented. And unlike Hayden, I don’t know if there was ever legal change to Xeon as a lastname for Sophie?

But some wiki editor said I was ‘dead naming’, despite that not being dead naming at all.For pointing out the birth surname. I think it would be a double standard not to apply the same principle of showing legal last names for all wiki’ pages, trans or not.

side note: oh yeah, another thing happened with Alexa Demie, and Lukas Gage actors from Euphoria’s pages. They did not want their legal last names out there I guess. which is crazy, being a successful actor, should come with higher transparency and scrutiny in my opinion.

TLDR; celebrities and non-celebs also cis and trans people should all be held at the same standard on wikipedia if their legal or birth surname is out there on the internet, it should be on their Wikipedia page.

I listen to both Sophie and Hayden/Ethel Cain all the time, but I agree I am not gonna blindly defend keeping relatively well-known musicians surnames private. Magnumb22 (talk) 07:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I just changed birth name to Horner. Publishing birth surname is not deadnaming, as long as mention of the name is strictly limited to context of birth.

That said, I think there is no good reason for this name to appear in the article outside the Birth name section of the infobox. Adding "(formerly Horner)" to the lead sentence or "Born Hayden Horner" in the intro is totally unnecessary and should be kept out of the article. Jbermingham123 (talk) 00:42, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Look Ethel Cain can opt to be known as whatever she wants, but this version of the page suddenly refers to Anhedönia at the beginning of the Career section without any clarification of whom the name refers to or why it's appearing ehre. I don't know anything about this artist, but from the discussion here it seems as though issues regarding naming form one dimension of their persona; fine, good, but it would be great if someone familiar with her story would either edit 'Anhedönia' out or explain somewhere why it's relevant. AKMAdam (talk) 13:28, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I had the same confusion. The name Anhedönia just appeared with no explanation, and I thought I missed something. If Ethel Cain is a stage name, and if Hayden Horner is her birth name (presumably changed after coming out as trans), then what is her actual name? SomeFirstName Anhedönia? 136.56.33.61 (talk) 00:38, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I think she legally changed her name to Hayden Anhedönia when she came out as trans. She and her friend Salem Anhedönia shared the surname. We don't have any more information regarding her current legal name. SubtleSylph (talk) 03:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

This seems to suggest it was the other way round - if I'm reading it right. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 11:38, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

For obvious reasons I won't share her deadname, and her family surname is in a comment above, but she chose the name Hayden Anhedönia when she came out as a trans woman. "Ethel Cain" is just (one of) her stage name(s). SubtleSylph (talk) 13:59, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

she had her name legally changed to hayden silas anhedönia when she came out as trans. there was a second on here when people kept trying to make her last name horner bc she uses that on facebook and spotify but tbh i think that's to deter people from finding her profiles. she introduced herself as hayden anhedönia in a youtube video posted just a few hours ago. anyways - yeah, her last name at birth was horner, but hayden silas was chosen when she transitioned. should her birth name really be listed as hayden silas horner? because... that was not her name when she was born lol. her full deadname isn't public info + it would be disrespectful / have no reason to have it on here if it was public so why not just leave that section of the page blank? 142.162.113.123 (talk) 05:45, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

In order to be properly encyclopedic, shouldn't we mention that Anhedönia is not this person's original surname? 98.123.38.211 (talk) 16:24, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

it just seems like there's no point in mentioning the name horner, there's zero relevance. "properly encyclopedic" doesn't mean having literally all available info... there's a ton i know about her that isn't on this page. bottom line is having "birth name: hayden silas horner" is incorrect 142.162.113.123 (talk) 23:24, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Wasn't her first studio album titled, Golden Age?

On Ethel Cain's spotify profile, it states her first album to be named "Golden Age" released in 2019 and not "Preacher's Daughter" released in 2022

I apologize if I am wrong. 2603:6082:1600:2:3D97:7A42:57C4:58D2 (talk) 22:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it’s because golden age is an EP and not an album 149.76.175.193 (talk) 09:27, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

When she started making music

She didn’t actually start making music in 2017, she released her first project under her first name in 2016 and depending on how far back we go she’s made music since 2013/14. I think 2016 would probably be the best date since it’s when she released her first project, but I just wanted to say Serok Ayris (talk) 18:59, 20 September 2024 (UTC)