Talk:Eternal Sun/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Courcelles (talk · contribs) 00:05, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

I can take this one on. Shouldn't take me too long to go over. Courcelles (talk) 00:05, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

• "Eternal Sun was a 1958 sorrel stallion sired by Eternal War and out of Sierra Glitter by Silver King" I got that sentence up to "out of Sierra Glitter by Silver King" where my limited knowledge of horses ran out. Perhaps a rephrase to make that clearer? (I get it from the infobox, but in prose it made no sense)
• "Before Eternal Sun arrived in Michigan, he was already turning heads." seems a strange way to end a paragraph. Why? According to whom?
• Not to be too pedantic, but you need an inline citation directly after the quote '"Horses were a lot shorter and stockier," Howard's daughter Mary Kay said. "Eternal Sun had an elegant head and neck and an irresistible charisma. I’ll never forget his eyes: His foals always had his eyes."'
• "These colts all had exemplary characteristics and disposition." I think that might be a bit of puffery by the source here.
• "made Carol a winner." We don't refer to people by first name like that.
• Not sure what makes Ref 3 a reliable source.
• Don't put the same links you cite as EL's.
• Image is fine.

Courcelles (talk) 00:30, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

First of all, thank you for taking this on Courcelles. I created the article with assistance from WAF. She was invaluable as she is an equine expert, and it was my first equine article (not counting rodeo horses - big difference).

• First item. The line describing Eternal Sun's parentage is standard industry terminology. You can see it in many equine articles. Here's one that uses it a couple times Garrett's Miss Pawhuska. However, I also ask WAF to explain this as she understands it better than I.
• I changed the sentence about the horse turning heads. Upon reviewing what the source said, this needed changed anyway. Good catch.
• I add a citation to the quote from Howard's daughter Mary Kay.
• I changed the wording about the colts so it was more encyclopedic.
• I changed all instances of Carol to Harris. This was just a silly mistake. I know it's supposed to be last names.
• On ref 3, WAF can you speak to this one? This ref has done extensive research on the pedigrees of 100s of horses.
• Regarding the links being cited and in External links. Can you cite a policy that says not to do that? I have done this in other articles do so I am curious to know if this truly against policy or the MOS or such.
  • See WP:ELDUP. Courcelles (talk) 20:17, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
• Glad the image is good, thank you. It was actually found and suggested to me by a 10+ year editor that helps me out on occasion.

Thanks for the review. The next step should come from WAF. dawnleelynn^(talk) 18:27, 18 January 2018 (UTC) p.s. WAF, can you take a look at my edits too, to make sure they fully address the reviewer's concerns? Thanks! dawnleelynn^(talk) 19:03, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I'm on now. If the way we refer to his parents is a problem, I can change it to something like, "Eternal Sun was sired by the stallion Eternal War and out of the mare Sierra Glitter; his maternal grandsire was Silver King" to make who they are more obvious. "Sired by" and "out of" are the standard way of describing a horse's parents. Ref 3 is kind of on the line for reliability, but it seems to match up with the others. A lot of sites like that would not be reliable, but sometimes you will find one that has a lot of excellent information and research. There's one called Walkers West I've used in writing Tennessee Walking Horse biographies that's been invaluable for horses that were famous before the computer era. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 22:54, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Re the parentage issue, I know it's odd, and reads perfectly well to horse people, but most of our readers (myself included) are not horse enthusiasts, so sometimes we have to write less technically and more to the level of the average intelligent person. As to ref 3, might it be more appropriate as an EL? I'm not seeing anything that is cited to it that you can't get out of your other sources. Courcelles (talk) 23:42, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Regarding Ref 3, the line it is supporting " Eternal Sun was an AQHA Champion 13 times, an AQHA Grand Champion 7 times, and a Reserve Grand Champion 4 times." cannot be found anywhere else, unless I am missing it somewhere? Yes, if you have seen this someplace else, please enlighten me. All of this AQUA info starts to run together, but I pretty much only see info on his progeny. I have searched hard for another source for this information on the Internet. Sources for this horse have been extremely hard to find overall. It's a very important bit of information about him that I have only been able to find on Ref 3. I would just add again that this horse was in his prime before the computer age so things are limited. The year he died, 1985, the first version of Windows was released, and was simply a GUI offered as an extension of Microsoft's existing disk operating system, or MS-DOS. I know about these things as I have been involved in or worked in the software industry all my life. So maybe we need to overlook a rule here as per WP:IAR and accept this source which is an extensive reference of horse pedigrees and AQUA history prior to the computer age. dawnleelynn^(talk) 00:16, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

That's the problem, there is no IAR when it comes to reliable sourcing at a GA/FA/FL level. Anyways, I want a second opinion on this ref, I'm going to ping @Ealdgyth: as the best authority on horse sourcing I know of. What do you think of this source being used? Courcelles (talk) 14:39, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

That's a no go on the source. Give me a bit, I can find the information in a reliable source, but I'm eating breakfast right this moment. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:42, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

As for the parentage - check out Go Man Go or Miss Meyers for examples of how to word it to please both horsepeople and non-horsepeople. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:45, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

So, I'm going to be a PITA and point out that there is a major source missing from this article. Eternal Sun is profiled in Legends 8: Outstanding Quarter Horse Stallions and Mares on pages 92- 103. I'm afraid that that source really needs to be incorporated in order for the article to be even minimally considered of GA status. Also - you can't say that he was an AQHA Champion 13 times - AQHA Champion is an award earned from earning a certain number of performance and halter points in AQHA shows and is only awarded once. He may have been named champion of various halter classes - but that is not an AQHA Champion. Nor is there such an award as "AQHA Grand Champion". A horse can be named grand champion of the halter classes at a specific horse show - but never an "AQHA Grand Champion" - AQHA does not award such a title or award. I'm also going to have to say that current ref 8 (The Story of the Statue) is not an RS either. Nor does allbreed pedigree qualify - it's a user-generated site. There are probably some articles in the Quarter Horse Journal on Eternal Sun also - those should be consulted for information. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:02, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Just driving by to comment that maybe there is a bit of puffery here in the tone, but Courcelles, phrases such as "Sired by" and "out of" are such a standard way of describing a horse's parents that I hesitate to concur in changing that bit -- just as we don't need to say"port is the left side of the boat" we can use a limited amount of technical language here too. I think having to say "the sire or father of the horse" is kind of silly, but perhaps a work around by a piped link to Glossary of equestrian terms#s for sire and Glossary of equestrian terms#d for dam does the trick without talking down to the reader. Ealdgyth, those "Legends" books are not accessible online nor is the Quarter Horse Journal, as far as I know, so perhaps if it is possible for you to be part of the solution and possibly add info you might have in hardcopy-only sources. We know that Allbreed is problematic (in the same way Imdb or find-a-grave can be), but if the info in the article now IS correct, perhaps tweaking the citation to a more formal database would be adequate. Allbreed isn't necessarily wrong (Sure, sometimes it is... ) but the content does need a cross-check and then a citation tweak from that. Montanabw^(talk) 17:50, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

No, allbreed fails as a source because it's user-generated. Even if its correct this moment, it can change and thus isn't reliable. And .. frankly, to be quite honest, the Legends books aren't that expensive and are available from libraries. I'm utterly swamped with real work and just don't have time to mess with editing someone else's articles. The Legends books DO have reliable pedigrees in them - they could be used to replace the allbreed stuff. Compared to the cost of some other stuff - buying a Legends book is cheap. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:55, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

They might be available in libraries somewhere, but not where I live. I think we have one of the world's worst libraries. I could order it, but I really don't care about Quarter Horses and would probably never use it again. If you can give the page numbers for the pages that back up the stuff that's referenced to Allbreed and the other thing, I can look up the ISBN and everything else and replace the sources. I've looked through my copies of the QH Journal (maybe 15-20) and Western Horseman (over 150) and can't find anything on him. Still, I am going to say that if they wanted to sell a lot of the Legends books, they'd probably do better to put them on Google Books so people could at least see a little of the content. If I've heard a book is good but don't want to buy it without trying it, I'll read the preview to see if I think it's worth it-- I've read a few pages of a book and decided it was crap before. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 23:09, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Ealdgyth Just was ready to hit to post the message when I saw WAF was responding. I know a bit about you from my mentor montanabw, as well as, working on your AQUA Hall of Fame horse articles to get the references updated from archive links to the current web site instead. I read the articles while I was working on them. So I am familiar with your work and your expertise is obvious. I have no doubt in my mind as to everything you've said being correct. However, my hands are tied in making some of the changes. I live in a small city, Cheyenne, WY. I looked up that book, and the closest one is located in Big Horn, Colorado, and it's not available for transfer. [1] It's 3 hours away. Also, it runs about $23 on Amazon. But seriously, though. I live on a fixed income. Surely you can have some sympathy in your heart for that? I haven't even bought a book for the many bucking bull and bull rider articles that I work on. Otherwise, things might be different. But seriously, it's a little much just for one horse article. I hope you can see things from my side. And I just saw WAF respond about her library not having it either. White Arabian Filly, same thing regarding libraries. Although we do have some good rodeo books here cause it's Cheyenne. dawnleelynn^(talk) 23:18, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

I've got you beat, Dawnleelynn, the nearest copy to me is in Dayton, OH. I was hoping it would be somewhere near me to help y'all out, but Dayton is a long ways up I-77 from North Carolina. Looks like we might have to fail this GAN, which is something I've never done before and don't enjoy, but I don't see this being broad in its coverage when we take out the non-RS stuff. Courcelles (talk) 23:32, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

I’ve got a husband home on sick leave from hemorrhoid surgery, and my job is doing a release ....while normally I’m happy to help, I just can’t justify it. Perhaps if folks would ask me for help before nominating, it’d be easier...but I really have no time since the spouse is pretty much immobile for the next week...and quite frankly if I’m going to work on horse research...I have about sixteen paying projects that I should be working on. Please don’t try to guilt trip me..next time ask before the article is nom8nated and without the time pressure. But...Eternal Sun is past my normal research period, so anything I’d find in QHJs would be me having to go to the nearest library with a run of the, and spend time on that rather than the paying projects. And quite honestly, the Legends books are cheap compared to the rest of my research library...which I try to pay for with paying horse research. Sorry if I sound crabby, but I just spent 3hours today scheduling TFA when I should have been working on horse research. And then to be wheedled to donate more time...and it’s not just the sourcing the stuff that to all breed with the legends stuff...there is stuff in that article that needs to be in here to be GA, which is probably four or five hours of reading, researching and editing...that’s a big chunk of my free time for Wikipedia...and I have a A-class review I should weigh in on, and I should be do8ng FAC source checks...I just don’t have unlimited time. I’m sorry, but please don’t do the freaking guilt thing. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:46, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Ealdgyth (talk · contribs) I'm so sorry you took it that way. It was not meant as a guilt trip on my part at all. I was only explaining to you why I cannot physically or financially do these additional additions to the article which are being required. I was perhaps hoping you or even someone else involved in this review might have another idea for how to get these resources. I'm very sorry you are dealing with all those issues. This is only my second Good Article nomination. I think I'll stick to areas I've more expertise in from now on. This is the first horse article I've created (with WAF's very excellent help and not counting expanding rodeo horses). I refuse to get upset about it or have it be a big deal like my first nom. I agree with Courcelles that it is probably best to drop this one for now. Courcelles, Dayton from North Carolina? That's crazy! LOL. I hope things get better for you Ealdgyth or Courcelles, no hard feelings on my side, just a case of things not working out here. Perhaps this article can be fixed down the line without the pressure of a nomination behind it. WAF, I hope you will continue to help me...and I think montanabw will help me as she's able. dawnleelynn^(talk) 04:05, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

@Courcelles:, I meant that I shouldn't have been so obstinate about Ref 3 before this blew up into trying to trying to find all these offline references, just so I am clear.

I was really hoping I could help, given the four ACC universities and other smaller schools within 30 miles of me, I'm not used to being unable to get my hands on something when needed! I'll close this up in a bit. Courcelles (talk) 00:25, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Courcelles, thank you for your work on this article. I really do appreciate it. I'm sorry about the disagreement on the source, I was being too hard-headed. And it was only my second GA review. I have to learn not to hold on so tightly. As for the rest, I think, with some help, these issues can be addressed and at some point later, the article can be nominated again. It should be easier to address with the pressure of the nom behind, like you said. Have a great weekend! dawnleelynn^(talk) 04:05, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

@Ealdgyth:, if I'm the one you think was guilt tripping you, I'm sorry. I didn't mean it to come across that way and wasn't thinking of that. I was just stating that I don't have the book or access to it. I buy almost all my books used and seldom pay over $3 at most for one, normally $1 or less, because I can read an average novel in about an hour. It'd just be too expensive to buy everything I want because I go through them so fast. By the way, I hope your husband recovers soon.

@Courcelles:, I understand what you're saying, and thanks for looking for the source. Like Dawnleelynn, I'm ok with cancelling or failing the review now and trying again later. I was aware of the Legends books before we started, but I've never seen a hard copy of one and didn't know Eternal Sun was profiled in any of them. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 23:33, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

@Ealdgyth: Unlike WAF, I didn't know about the book or ability to get such old issues of the magazine, so I didn't know to ask for help regarding the offline resources before even nominating for a review, but now I do. One thing I did do was check your User page to see if you had this horse in your plans, and a find didn't return him. Anyway, again I was just acknowledging your authority with my reply as well as informing that I couldn't access the sources. WAF and I are talking about how we can possibly find the book. I did find vols 3 and 7 at Murdoch's Home and Ranch Supply online. Possibly they may have the books in the store nearby and I could read them there and take notes or take photos of the requisite pages or some such. Cheyenne being home to Cheyenne Frontier Days, we have several ranch type stores and tack stores that may have the books. Ok, hope all gets better for you. :) dawnleelynn^(talk) 04:52, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Sigh... AQHA really just needs the equivalent of equineline ... a basic parentage verification database that's not user-generated. Even the Arabian association will at least give you sire and dam for free and you can verify from there. Montanabw^(talk) 20:14, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

The AQHA does have it... but you have to be a member. (We'll leave aside the issue that it has data-entry errors - since one of the "paying projects" i'm working on is a revised and corrected set of early stud books for the AQHA...) If it was just a case of sourcing the pedigree, it wouldn't be a problem for me to do that quickly, but there is a good bit of information in the Legends book that needs to be accessed to make this article GA. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:26, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

I tried a different search late last night at Murdoch's and found the book online. Then I clicked the Find in Store button and it was available in lots of stores in quantities of 1-3 at each one. Murdoch's is a western store, only available in WY, ID, MT, CO, and western NE. I checked again this morning and they were out of the online books. But it did show they were on order for more. Funny. But there were two in the store here according to the website: [2]. I could potentially see if I could photograph the pages if the books are not out in front where all the salespeople and clerk traffic is. Just a thought. It's only a couple miles from here. dawnleelynn^(talk) 18:30, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

I would try your local library - our local library is part of a lending consortium that pools the libraries in the area so we can get a lot of books that aren't in the local library. If that doesn't work, you may also be able to get it through true Inter Library Loan - my local library is able to get academic books for me from college/university libraries here in my state even though I can't access those databases through our local consortium. It always pays to ask the local librarian for help, not just assume that because it's not in their library catalog you can't get it. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:36, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

I posted this earlier [3]. I used the Wyoming Wyldcat system to search all of the libraries (not just our library system) around the area and ended up with the closest copy being in Big Horn, Colorado, and that one not being available for transfer here. I have used this system to borrow books from other libraries before. I believe that is what you mean by inter library loan. The Place Hold button does not actually work for this title. The UW/Worldcat tab shows the book too, but it doesn't actually let you do anything with it that is helpful. We do have the one four-year university in Laramie - University of Wyoming. And there is CSU in Fort Collins, Colorado. Both are about 45 minutes away. Well, there is a small 2 year community college here in Cheyenne. It's also free to request books be added to the library. My father has successfully done this before. How many books are in the series total? Thanks! I may learn some new stuff about my library in this process. dawnleelynn^(talk) 19:35, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, for a loan from an academic library - I usually have to ask a librarian, as I can't get access to the various databases/catalogs to request, but sometimes librarians will be able to do it. There are 9 books in the series in total - they are all named "Legends: Outstanding Quarter Horse Stallions and Mares" with the ones past #1 being "Legends #: ....". They are very good resources as the authors often times interviewed owners or other family members for information, as well as doing some research in the Western Horseman magazine archives ... each book does between 15 and 25 horses. There is a similar series on Paints and one for Arabians too. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:39, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Well, I am not able to ask a librarian for UofW or CSU obviously. The two year college here isn't likely to have them. However, the Wyldcat system did have that tab UW/Worldcat which I have not explored before and several of the Legends books were listed there, including Vol 8. I couldn't do anything with the book on that page. But that doesn't mean I won't be able to ask at the library about it and find a way to obtain it. I mean what's the point of the tab and listing the book if I can't borrow it? I'm also going to request the books. I mean, this is Cheyenne, why wouldn't they want some really good horse books? I'll have to go to the library since that tab is locking up when you try to do anything on it (the UW/Worldcat tab). The request feature isn't working either...big surprise. Will update later this week. dawnleelynn^(talk) 20:09, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi all, I just got back a little while ago from errands and I stopped by the library. First of all, let me post the library link [4] again. This shows the book available in our library system. I spent some time with a librarian. It was a very enlightening experience. First of all, if you look at that link, it says the book is at "Big Horn Co. Library" and I read it as Big Horn, Colorado. That is what I get for not paying enough attention. It is in Big Horn County. It's in Wyoming. (FYI, there is a Bighorn, Colorado.) The librarian said the entire state of Wyoming is linked together, and I can get books transferred from any library in the state. We are the only state in the nation that has their whole state linked. And it is precisely because we are the smallest state in the nation that we can do so. As the population goes up, the less in an area that can be linked together. So, that search where I select "All WYLD Libraries" is the correct pick from the drop-down if I want to do an Inter Library Loan. That's what they call it too. But, here comes the tricky part. It's not intuitive at all, and they have changed how it worked since the last time I borrowed a book from another library. I could have tried for hours, and I never would have figured it out. On the book listing, you don't click Hold, which would make sense and was the way it used to worked. No, you click the Call Number. Next to where it says Call Number there is long number and you click that. And then you have to agree to pay the $2 transfer fee and it finally reserves the book for you. It does ask for another log in at some point. I had to try twice to get the book to show under My Account under My Requests. I don't know exactly how long it will take. About 2 - 3 days probably. It's in north central Wyoming about 6 hours from here. Oh, and the WY/Worldcat tab isn't something I can do anything with, I'll have to ask on the third floor about that sometime. I got the slips so I make requests for adding the books to the library. Naturally, I had to visit the rodeo section while I was here. I found a book by the same publisher on Rodeo Legends which looks very promising. It features 20 rodeo performers, the most well-known ones like Ty Murray and Tuff Hedeman, etc. I eyed three books on Cheyenne Frontier Days but I just can't bring myself to work on that article right now. Someday. :) dawnleelynn^(talk) 23:54, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Hello again everybody, an update - I came back from the library without the book on Eternal Sun yesterday. Whatever I was looking at online Sunday night, was not an indication it was ready for pickup. In fact, the librarian said the library in Big Horn County denied, saying they could not find the book on their shelves. But they have two others locations out of state they are trying next, they do that automatically. But apparently, she said, the books are popular, this being horse country and all. I gave her the request to have the books, all 9 volumes, added to this library as well. We will see what happens. dawnleelynn^(talk) 16:29, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Well, that sucks. I am keeping an eye out at the used bookstore here to see if they pop up. They save back horse books for me to look at, so I'll get first chance if they get any. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 23:05, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Drop me an email, I might have time to scan it sometime in the next few days...still insanely busy. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:13, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

White Arabian Filly WAF, thanks a bunch. I appreciate. That sounds like a great setup too! dawnleelynn^(talk) 02:58, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Ealdgyth Thanks a bunch, I sent one. dawnleelynn^(talk) 02:58, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

I called the library today. OK, the first out of state location added a $5 charge to the transfer (in addition to $2) so they are trying the second out of state location. They said check back next Tue or Wed. dawnleelynn^(talk) 19:23, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Just a heads up to all, that Ealdgyth sent me the scanned pages from the book for the horse about two days ago. I'm starting on the article today. The last out of state library still shows as pending in my library account; it's been a week now and I am doubtful anything would happen. WAF, I will start a new section on your talk page where we can discuss the edits once I've gotten something worth discussing. I probably won't update here anymore. Unless it's only to say what finally happened with the library. Thanks all for your help. I hope we can do a second GA after I've incorporated from the book. Ealdgyth, now that I see the content, I understand why you are so adamant about it. It will be a significant contribution. dawnleelynn^(talk) 18:07, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I checked the library system on-line today. The request status still showed that vol. 8 was still pending. But I also saw that under "Hold" it now said there were 2 books there now instead of 1. (I had another rodeo book under request which showed up yesterday.) I went to the library and sure enough my book rodeo and vol. 8 book were there. I get it for 3 weeks (until Mar 6). Whether it can be renewed is up to the inter loan library which is Daniel Boone Library in Columbia, Missouri. No wonder it took so long! They only charged me $2. The scans are still extremely useful to me. I actually like being able to place the edit window and scanned page side by side to write. And I can study the text in book and sit comfortably in the sofa now. Having both is really great. Having the scans permanently is also great because something could come up down the road and I can defend or review from the scans to the article. And it makes it so I have no time limit on making the changes. I always hear that an article is never done! I see your thanking my edits WAF. And thanks again Ealdgyth. Also, I seriously hope they accept my suggestion to add the books to the library. dawnleelynn^(talk) 23:39, 13 February 2018 (UTC)