Talk:Estelle Blackburn

Message to User: 124.169.141.41

• I have been reading and editing this site for a while but this is my first effort at creating an article and I was developing the plan for it as I progressed. I was intending to complete the basic article, then refer it to an experienced editor for assessment.

• I was surprised to see your edits because Estelle Blackburn has been a "red link" for a long time and, as no-one else had bothered to create it, I didn't expect any other editors to appear. If you intend to continue editing this article, to speed communication, I would like to clarify whether you are a regular or new user on this site. (The only Wikipedia contributions shown for your IP address are your edits to this article. I placed the message in the article for you because many newcomers (no offence intended) don't look at the talk pages for their account or the articles they edit - or even realise what they're for.) If you are a newcomer, why not create a unique "handle" for yourself? It facilitates discussion and makes it a lot easier to recognise the user than does a string of numerals.

• Thankyou for adding some biographical details to this article which I was lacking. I would like to know if you can "source" the educational details.

• I wasn't aware of the additional works you've cited and I wasn't expecting to add any as I couldn't find any references for EB other than the two books in Internet catalogue searches. The format I've used is from the Wiki-markup bookcite template (which is best-suited to helping the reader find the cited works) and the styles of the citations clash. I'd like to regularise them if possible.

• I am aware of the websites you added and I believe they would be better placed in the "External Links" section. In fact, I'm intending to put all of the Australian Story links into the same format I've already used, so the AS site address you've added wouldn't really be needed.

• Some of the stuff piling up at the bottom of the article will eventually be the References List. Please leave that for me to sort out. Retarius | Talk 05:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Message to Estelle Blackburn

Please refer to the message I have left for you on my talk page. You can access it by clicking on the word "Talk" in my signature block and then click on "Estelle Blackburn" in the Contents box to go directly to the appropriate section. Retarius | Talk 05:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Needed for expansion of the article

Here's a list of some things I'll add to as I think of them and which are desirables for expanding this article Retarius | Talk 03:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC) :

1. Complete birth date of subject.
2. Names of brothers/sisters?
3. Did family move to Perth in 1956?
4. Confirm issue of leaving certificate 1967 + What exactly were they called? Senior etc.?
5. Detail of PHD topic.

1 March 1950 Dr Gregory Blackburn, born 30 May 1947 Yes, father had been Manager of the AMP in Northam, transferred to management Perth office. Father George 1917 (Nottingham)-1982, mother Margaret 1920 (Kalgoorlie)-1990. Commercial teacher mother awarded OAM for services to commercial teaching 1980 and was a JP (and secretary of TPI Association) when died. Wrote a couple of commercial teaching text books. Leaving Certificate, gained with distinctions in English and Music. BA double major Psychology and Anthropology PhD explores the methods and ethics of investigative journalism and the benefits and difficulties of literary journalism, based on Broken Lives as a case study. Also, if of interest: Board Member, Fremantle Cemetery Board 1 July 2002-30 June 2003 (on amalgamation with Metropolitan Cemeteries Board Founding executive member Australian Innocence Network Work for wrongfully convicted (and wrongfully charged) continues through freelance journalism and prison support. 'Our Justice Nightmare' p.1 lead The Sunday Times 1 April 2007, 'Why the Police Couldn't Turn Me' p.1 lead The Sunday Times 14 May 2006, 'No-citizenship Britons will be shown the door', pgs 53,54.56 The Sunday Times 11 January 2004, 'New Silks on the case' The Age 4 June 2005, 'Conviction to be axed' p 17 and 'The hard road to win justice, The Sunday times news review 9 April 2006,'Lie test 'clean p 37 The Sunday Times 27 January 2007, 'Barristers gag an attack on rights: lawyer' p 14 The West Australian 3 April 2006. ISBN of the Australian Story book Off the Record is ISBN 978 0 7333 21344 -comment added by estelle blackburn.

Name of chapter in Journalism: Investigation & Research

This site, for Pearson Education Australia, shows the title for Blackburn's chapter as "All the problems in one case". Blackburn disputes this and has emailed me to say that she has a printed copy of the book with the chapter title shown as in the article. Retarius | Talk 03:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

This has now been corrected on the Pearson site. Anklyosaur | Hiss 12:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Published Works

The citations need to be improved - I will look for a better template. Retarius | Talk 05:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup and removal

I made some changes to the article, removing underconstruction and collapsible templates. The article is usable as is. I also removed this part:

This work contained a background story of Blackburn's own experience of violence at the time of writing her first book. Blackburn speculated that a violently abusive former partner may have been the offender responsible for the Claremont serial murders. This attracted media attention and led to further appearances on radio and television programmes (including a return to Australian Story).

The notability and reliability of speculation regarding living persons (her ex) needs to be established here - on the talk page. Was it the subject of the return to 'Australian Story'? Has anyone else made a public statement about it? Should it still be included if they had? cygnis insignis 09:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

In the final form of the article a citation would be made from that section to the Australian Story episodes which dealt with it and a citation to The End of Innocence. I don't understand what you intend to be the subject of your question about "notability and reliability". Do you mean the fact of the speculation or the accuracy of it? The hypothesis is clearly stated in the book. As it's been "legaled" by the publisher and released, the issue of accuracy of the hypothesis doesn't seem relevant here. The point that I am making in that sentence is (when read in the context of the section it was placed in), that this was the part of the work which most interested the media. The article contains no judgement on its veracity. Retarius | Talk 02:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

My comment is muddled by my attempt at politeness, when it should clearly worded, although some discretion is appropriate. The dignity of all who might be affected is a major concern, especially the named subject. I have removed it because it may conflict with policy, Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons (WP:BLP) being foremost;

Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia.

–Jimmy Wales

I have read the policies again, following the links such as Avoiding harm, and believe it may contravene policy. It needs to be established how it might comply, and the way in which it should be presented if it clearly does. We should not be making a point, but presenting facts from reliable sources that help to explain the notability of the subject. The publishers' decision to print and air the speculation is not a precedent for wikipedia's main space, and I request a source to support the claim that is why Blackburn is notable. cygnis insignis 05:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The section is a report of some further works of Blackburn; I didn't include it to prove her notability and I'm not claiming that it does. The person referred to as the "violently abusive former partner" has been in and out of prison for years after a series of ugly incidents involving women and parole violations after release. That is referred to in the 2007 Australian Story episodes, as in the book. The matter has been featured on television, radio and in print. I haven't named the individual here, or in the article, but reports of his court appearances, with full names, have appeared in the West Australian.

I believe that, if one is going to provide a biographical sketch of the subject, the significant events of that person's life should be referred to. I understand this distinction: Not everyone who has been assaulted/stalked/afraid for their life is noteworthy to history. That has nowt to do with their innate worth as human beings; it's just a cultural fact. When a person who is already noteworthy (for reasons which are stated elsewhere in the article) is subjected to such events and records them in a memoir, it's worth reporting. I don't consider that the inclusion of the adjectives "violent" or "abusive" is an injustice to the person described or violates policy. As to her speculation about him; it explains the prominence which the book achieved in the media. I believe that including this, as an objective account of some of the content of the book, is also within the policy. Retarius | Talk 08:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

What I read Blackburn speculated that a violently abusive former partner may have been the offender responsible for the Claremont serial murders. is where the concerns of BLP are, by removal of the descriptive violently abusive and just saying Blackburn speculated that a former partner may have... would address the concerns Gnangarra 08:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

This is the only comment I've received in response to posting on the Wikiproject WA talk page and the Australian Wikipedians' notice board. It seems an eminently sensible compromise to me so I'll instate it as Gnangarra has proposed. Retarius | Talk 09:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

References

Awards

I have tagged for citation needed, rather than removed a number of items at the awards section of this article. These items should be verified as soon as possible please or they will need to be removed.--VS ^talk 22:59, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• I should have also added there is a completely unverified component regarding Blackburn's suggested current studies that requires verification for it to remain on this page please.--VS ^talk 23:03, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Okay as per a discussion at my talk page with the primary author I have removed a number of awards that made the article read like a CV and kept the awards that could be referenced directly. I also removed the PhD component for now - she is a best a candidate only at this stage and this part, in my opinion should be given no weight until completion. The references in the article generally could be tidied to be all of the same style. I hope that assist?--VS ^talk 09:52, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The End of Innocence

The article relies to heavily on The End of Innocence as the source with the exception of the section on awards its the sole source. As its a primary source this needs to be addressed, WP:NOTABILITY requires that the subject has been the subject of multiple independent sources. I know that Blackburn does achieve notability, there are(should be) many news articles about Button and Beamish events that would include details about Blackburn sufficient to assert notability. These need to be found and used to replace as much of the citation information as possible. Gnangarra 14:10, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

References lost

The article now misrepresents the circumstances of the start of the matter by saying that John Button's brother approached Blackburn. It also lacks explanation for her motive for writing a book. Retarius | Talk 10:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

That what the article Broken Lives is for, this should just be a short summary. Also checking back in the history before I edited it down the article said that James Button approached Blackburn about his brother, the editing didnt change the context. Gnangarra 10:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't addressing my remarks to you in particular, I was making a note for my own future use. I appreciate the creation of the sub-article.

I'd like to put this back somewhere, I think it's within the rules as being well-sourced. I can see how an inference can be drawn about James approaching Blackburn, but he simply mentioned it in passing in a social context.

Although a familiar name from by-line articles in The West Australian in the 1970s and a familiar face and voice on television and radio for Western Australians throughout the 1980s, Blackburn was not especially prominent in the public's consciousness until she decided to take up the cause of John Button. Button's brother, James, had told her, in January of 1992, that his older brother had been framed for a murder committed by Eric Cooke. Initially skeptical, Blackburn met John Button in February of 1992 and, after hearing his testimony and reading the appeal books kept by him from his failed previous court actions, decided that his case would be an appropriate topic for the book which she had long aspired to write. Thus, in the final months of the Lawrence government, Blackburn converted to part-time employment in order to conduct the necessary research.

“ I enjoyed...journalism and made a good living. But I wouldn't have been remembered for it. Eveything I did for the West Australian or the ABC had been transitory - newspapers becoming fish-and-chips wrapping and electronic stories disappearing into thin air...A book would let me write something meaningful, from the heart. And it would be enduring. My name would live on - even if only high on a dusty shelf of the State Library - rather than be lost to the recycling bin or the ether ” — Estelle Blackburn, The End of Innocence, pp. 20-26

Have you got a source other than The End of Innocence for a primary source its been over used, like Bevan Lawrence article it would have difficulty at an afd without wider sourcing. Something like that ref could be done like This format includes the text but its more like an image, to have para in the section about the book is really a distraction to the topic. Gnangarra 14:05, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

References

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