Talk:Esoteric Neo-Nazism

Previous discussion

This article was split of from Nazi occultism. Please see there for the previous discussion. Zara1709 11:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Which discussion? I could not find it with Special:PrefixIndex/Talk:Occultism_in_Nazism. Apokrif (talk) 19:13, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Nordic Alien link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_aliens

I'm pretty sure the above article is somehow deeply connected to Serrano's and the others' theories... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.136.2.44 (talk) 07:42, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Too bad that I can't optain a copy of Black Sun (Goodrick-Clarke book) at the moment, otherwise I would check it out. Zara1709 14:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Corbin on the Aryan-Sufic Hyperborean Paradise, the Midnight Sun and the Grail

From Henry Corbin, Spiritual Body and Celestial Earth (trans. Nancy Pearson, Princeton University Press, 1989, pps. 71-72).

"...That is why the progression, which this mode of thought makes it possible for us to conceive, is not a horizontal linear evolution, but an ascent from cycle to cycle, from one octave to a higher octave. A few pages from the same Shaikh, which have been translated here, illustrate this. The spiritual history of humanity since Adam is the cycle of prophecy following the cycle of cosmogony; but though the former follows in the train of the latter, it is in the nature of a reversion, a return and reascent to the pleroma. This has a gnostic flavor to be sure, but that is exactly what it means to 'see things in Hurqalya.' It means to see man and his world essentially in a vertical direction. The Orient-origin, which orients and magnetizes the return and reascent, is the celestial pole, the cosmic North, the 'emerald rock' at the summit of the cosmic mountain of Qaf, in the very place where the world of Hurqalya begins; so it is not a region situated East on the maps, not even those old maps that place the East at the top, in place of the North. The meaning of man and the meaning of his world are conferred upon them by this polar dimension, and not by a linear, horizontal and one-dimensional evolution, that famous 'sense of history' which nowadays has been taken for granted, even though the terms of reference on which it is based remain entirely hypothetical.

Moreover, the paradise of Yima in which are preserved the most beautiful of beings who will repopulate a transfigured world, namely, the Var that preserves the seed of the resurrection bodies, is situated in the North. The Earth of Light, the Terra Lucida of Manicheism, like that of Mazdeism [Zoroastrianism], is also situated in the direction of the cosmic North. In the same way, according to the mystic Abd al-Karim Jili, the 'earth of the souls' is a region in the far North, the only one not to have been affected by the consequences of the fall of Adam. It is the abode of the 'men of the Invisible,' ruled by the mysterious prophet Khizr (Khadir). A characteristic feature is that its light is that of the 'midnight sun,' since the evening prayer is unknown there, dawn rising before the sun has set. And here it might be useful to look at all the symbols that converge toward the paradise of the North, the souls' Earth of Light and castle of the Grail...." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.2 (talk) 18:48, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

This is fascinating stuff. Like that guy in Close Encounters, I have long been drawn to the image of this cosmic mountain. However, it's not for nothing that this theoretically northern mountain, this 'orient', has been associated with the east, where Snorri put it in his Edda. You should be aware of the considerable body of traditional data which localizes the physical embodiment of this mountain either in the Transcaucasus (Northern Zagros, probably) or in central Asia (Pamirs?), in line with the mtDNA and Y-chromosome data, plus linguistic and archaeological evidence (see this article), which converge in tracing the Caucasoid migrations from these areas. No doubt on its own plane of reality it is situated at the north pole of cosmic rotation, but that's not necessarily how it looks from the physical universe.

Anyway, I'm not sure how this fits in with the article. By no stretch of the imagination is Corbin a Nazi esotericist, though he might be cited as an influence. We've lost some related material which was moved to the Serrano article — I might be able to fix that later on, but even then the stuff you quoted would be incidental. If I wrote a section on Parvulesco, I could give Corbin a mention. Meantime, I'm going to check out Pearson's translation. Gnostrat (talk) 02:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Naming convention

This page should be titled Esoteric neo-nazism or Esoteric neo-fascism in order to abide by naming conventions used on most of the other pages on fascism and Nazism. Benoist is hardly a Nazi or neonazi. Some debate even calling him a neofascist.--Cberlet 05:04, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I entirely agree with you about Benoist, but I'm not sure we can just go around inventing terms which aren't in the literature. Besides, 'Esoteric' is a qualifier, just like 'Neo'. Esoteric Nazism didn't exist in the Third Reich, because there was no officially-sanctioned ideology of Nazi occultism, only one certified-insane SS-Brigadeführer and some fringe dabbling in the Ahnenerbe. So 'Esoteric' is (and includes the) 'Neo', by definition. It doesn't need a redundant double qualification. Gnostrat 06:30, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with what you say, but the confusion and debate among scholars over terminolgy in this topical area is widespread. For the record, I think Alain de Benoist is a neofascist, but a clever one. I do however, recognize that there is considerable disagreement over this label.

Here is the problem: Esoteric Nazism can refer to German Nazism or post WWII neonazism ("Neo-Nazism" here on Wikipedia). Perhaps Esoteric Nazism could become a disambiguation page. There is no hurry. I am just trying to sort out a growing problem here on Wikipedia that the pages on Neo-fascism and Neo-Nazism are very much out of date and rely on outdated research and fail to take into account a considerable amount of literature published in the last ten years. Right now there is a fractious discussion going on over at Neo-Nazism over the definition.

Anyway, can we pick a page to have this discussion? Perhaps Neo-fascism and paganism is not the best name, but how dow we deal with the fact that Nicholas Goodrick-Clark has pointed out the blurring of lines among Aryanism, neofascism, and neonazism? Maybe we could have this discussion here? I can drop a note on other pages. What matters most is that there is some coherence to the tiels and some agreement on the boundaries. I am not going to insist on a particular scheme, but I do want to straighten things out.--Cberlet 14:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy to discuss it here. I'm going to formally propose that Neo-fascism and paganism be merged into this article anyway. I'll fix the merge tags for now, and come back to your points later on. Gnostrat 14:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Now that we seem to have resolved the naming issue at Neo-völkisch movements, I've had a long think about the related problem of what to call this article and have (reluctantly) come back to the conclusion that it should remain as it is.

I have to admit that Esoteric Nazism is not at all well-defined. Goodrick-Clarke himself uses it sparingly, and he doesn't properly explain what is included. It is evidently broader than Esoteric Hitlerism (which revolves around the ideas of Savitri Devi and Miguel Serrano) but not as broad as G-C's other umbrella term, Neo-völkisch movements. Where to draw the line may be a problem when we come to consider the likes of Wilhelm Landig, who clearly supports a version of Nazism but believes that Hitler himself was a traitor to the cause. (In some respects this brings Landig close to Julius Evola. I had considered squeezing Evola and the Evolians into this article, but that doesn't seem necessary now that Neo-völkisch movements can cover groups to which Evola is more intimately related.) If it weren't for people like Landig, I would have said move this article to Esoteric Hitlerism and restrict it to people and groups who think that A.H. was God incarnate; but, as things stand, I think the broader name still has potential.

In any case, we don't need to make Esoteric Nazism a disambig. It is evident enough that G-C doesn't mean to include the occult interests of a few pre-1945 Nazis, and as long as this is clearly spelled out at the beginning of the article, nobody who arrives here is going to be in any doubt that Nazi occultism is not the same thing. (Perhaps the latter article should, in addition, be renamed to Nazism and occultism so that nobody imagines it's about something coherent or official.)

Against my earlier plan, we can probably leave the so-called Nazi Satanists in Neo-völkisch movements. These evidently don't always identify as "Nazi", but we shouldn't split them between articles, because the phenomenon presents unifying characteristics and we need an overview in one place. I think that, here, we should confine ourselves to noting the influence of Savitri Devi and Serrano within the Satanist counterculture. Gnostrat (talk) 02:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

How about Esoteric Nazism (post-WWII)?--Cberlet (talk) 02:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

But there wasn't any Esoteric Nazism (WWII and pre-WWII). As described (and apparently coined) by Goodrick-Clarke, it's all "Neo", and I don't know that it has ever been used by any scholar in any other way. So it's still my view that there just isn't an ambiguity that needs addressing. If you could produce evidence that users of Wikipedia are actually finding this to be a problem, I would change my opinion. Gnostrat (talk) 03:12, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

But 99.9% of readers don't know anything about this stuff, and this is an encyclopedia, and part of our job is to help readers find information and make sense of it.--Cberlet (talk) 03:26, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I take your point, but I still don't see a problem. Visitors to either Esoteric Nazism or Nazi occultism will immediately discover what is included, and where to read about stuff they might have imagined was included.

Goodrick-Clarke's terminology is what it is. He perceives that neo-Nazis are a subset of Nazis. (You wouldn't argue that we can't call ourselves mammals because we are primates.) However, if you are still unhappy about it, we could sidestep the terminology. I've re-read Goodrick-Clarke and Godwin on the Landig group and they clearly fall in with the Evolians rather than Serrano. So there is no reason why we can't list that group separately on Neo-völkisch movements — it was a sort of connecting link between NVM and earlier völkisch/Ariosophical mysticism — and, more immediately, move the contents of the present article to Esoteric Hitlerism. (I am hoping that you will not suggest "Esoteric neo-Hitlerism"!) Result: two rather better defined articles. If we inserted a short explanation of G-C's ill-defined Esoteric Nazism on Neo-völkisch movements, this page could redirect to there. Gnostrat (talk) 00:12, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree; even though this is an old discussion, I've moved the article as discussed and added hatnotes on both article so the reader knows the difference and can find the material they were looking for. Skyerise (talk) 11:34, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Book of Enoch Proto-Racism

No wonder Serrano and his gang consider the ancient Book of Enoch so interesting: it describes the white Nordic physiotype as superhuman and "angelic":

http://www.lunaeterna.net/popcult/religion.htm

Noah as a newborn is described as being very pale in appearance, with white hair and skin. His looks are so unusual that his father, Lamech, initially suspects his wife of having had an adulterous affair with a lusty fallen angel....

CHAPTER 106 (FRAGMENT FROM THE BOOK OF NOAH) And after some days my son Methuselah took a wife for his son Lamech, and she became pregnant by him and bore a son. And his body was white as snow and red as the blooming of a rose, and the hair of his head and his long locks were white as wool, and his eyes beautiful. And when he opened his eyes, he lighted up the whole house like the sun, and the whole house was very bright. And thereupon he arose in the hands of the midwife, opened his mouth, and conversed with the Lord of righteousness. And his father Lamech was afraid of him and fled, and came to his father Methuselah. And he said unto him: "I have begotten a strange son, diverse from and unlike man, and resembling the sons of the God of heaven... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.1 (talk) 07:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Readers interested in Evola, Serrano, etc. should also take a look at the Nordic Alien entry here. Benjamin Creme believes in a scenario quite similar to Evola and Serrano, with hyperphysical Venusian Nordic aliens from the extramundane etheric plane guiding the evolution of earthlings, etc. The Theosophical inspiration is here again quite evident. Theosophy seems inextricably linked with far-out root-race and therefore racialist ideas in modern history.

More on the Book of Enoch-Theosophical-Ufologist-Nazi connection:

http://www.echoesofenoch.com/meetthenordics.htm

Blavatskian-Theosophic Racialism

Sumathi Ramaswamy, The Lost Land of Lemuria (University of California Press, 2004), p. 68: Indeed, Theosophy generates a complex geography of human races in which all the black peoples of the world are either Lemurians or their degenerate descendents, while the most advanced peoples of today--white Caucasians--are members of the fifth Root-race, far removed from them (77). In the Theosophical evolutionism, as Spirit--or Monad or Pilgrim--works its way through the history of the earth, it "is compelled to incarnate in, or rather contact, every race" (78). As it marches across the history of the earth, Spirit manifests itself in the form of the various Root-races and sub-races which it successively sheds as it surges upward toward our present Fifth Race, the most perfect so far. Those who get left behind--referred to variously as "sluggards" and "failures"--are destined to stagnate. Arguably, this enchanted evolutionary vision is much more racist and hierarchical than that espoused by many a contemporary disenchanted materialist, for millions of years separate the white Anglo-Saxon from the black aborigine whose origins are ascribed to the "racial decay" that besets the seventh sub-race in the closing years of Lemuria's life on earth (79). Further, rather than emerging from the more perfected forms of the Fourth Root-race on Atlantis, as the majority of northern humanity do, the blacks of the world--"fallen, degraded semblances of humanity"--are deemed to be descendents of a Root-race that was ultimately transcended by other, superior forms (80). Lemuria is handy in this regard as well, allowing the Theosophist to not only place the lower, degraded specimens of humanity in a different time, but also to isolate them further from the more evolved races by tracing their origins to a totally different continental configuration (81). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.136.1.133 (talk) 07:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

New and elder evidence against a strong relationship

PLease have a look on Schellinger, Uwe; Anton, Andreas; Schetsche, Michael T. (2015). Pragmatic Occultism in the Military History of the Third Reich”. In Black, Monica, and Eric Kurlander: Revisiting the "nazi Occult" Histories, Realities, Legacies (NED New ed.). Boydell & Brewer. JSTOR link. pp. 157–80.

Quote After 1945, a consensus held that occultism -- an ostensibly anti-modern, irrational blend of pseudo-religious and -scientific practices and ideas -- had directly facilitated Nazism's rise. More recently, scholarly debate has denied the occult a role in shaping the Third Reich, emphasizing the Nazis' hostility to esoteric religion and alternative forms of knowledge. Bringing together cutting-edge scholarship on the topic, this volume calls for a fundamental reappraisal of these positions.

That said, the article is a) based on conspiracy theories started by rightwing authors of popular German books in the 1950ies and 60ies, refreshed by Goodrick-Clarke, b) does not embrace the newer research denying any connection and c) has no idea about the current picture presented by Schellinger et al which is much more differentiated. I see some need for rework. Polentarion Talk 18:55, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

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Merge with Occultism in Nazism

See discussion at Talk:Occultism_in_Nazism#Merge_with_Esoteric_Nazism (please comment there to avoid splitting up the discussion). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:36, 11 August 2024 (UTC)