Talk:Elizabeth Szilágyi

Original name

From the history articles I've read I believe there's a standard on EN wiki whereas the english name is put forward and in brackets the native name/s. This article can't really follow that pattern as there's hard to come with an translation into English for the original name but should nevertheless be used instead. Elisabeta Sălăjan was the person original name with the last name Sălăjan given from the region she was born in which was Sălaj, called by Hungarians Szilágy which was one of the many original names changed by Hungarians once they crossed the Carpathians and conquest Transylvania at the end of the 10th century. Given that there isn't an english translation for Sălăjan I've put it forward instead, and left the Hungarian name in parentheses. I don't see an issue with this, but if there is one please explain here. Maok3 (talk) 06:27, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Would you please refer to a book published in English which refers to her as Elisabeta Sălăjan, as per WP:Name? Yes, I know that the name of the region known in Romanian as "Sălăj" cannot be explained based on the Romanian language, because it is of Hungarian origin. You may not know, but the original (Hungarian) name of the region (Szilágy) refers to a territory where elm trees (in Hungarian, szil) grow (Kiss, Lajos (1983). A földrajzi nevek etimológiai szótára [Etimological Dictionary of Place Names]. Akadémiai Kiadó. ISBN 963-05-3346-4 (page 613). Consequently there would be a proper translation for her name (Elisabeth of the Region of the Elm Trees), but I have never read any books which uses this translation when referring to her. Borsoka (talk) 12:13, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I never claimed that Elisabeta Sălăjan is translated into an english literature, precisely because its not easily translatable. As for its origins, Sălaj as far as I know and its wiki page seems to suggest the same, comes from Land of Silvania with Silva meaning forest in Latin due to its large parts of virgin forest. Of course, after the Hungarians conquered Sălaj area during the middle of 11th century, they also didn't had a way to translate it and used Szil like you refer as to elm forest as it was phonetically similar with its local name back then of Silva. The head of Cultural Patrimony county of Sălaj wrote and was co-author on several important books in this field of present-day Sălaj and Zalău counties toponymy, in particular ′Antroponimie : din onomastica Ţării Silvaniei′ (Anthroponymy: Land of Silvania onomatology) ISBN 9789737817952

Furthermore, during Hungarian ruling all the local names of people and towns were translated but only on paper as in local use the original name were still used by the authoton population which were in a big poportion still Romanians ancestors which were constantly raided by different populations starting from the Romans, later Vandals, then Gepids and Huns, Hungarians. Depending on the invaders period of reign it influenced the words and names but Elisabeta is still a popular name in Romanian and many Hungarian leaders had Romanian wifes and mothers, hence Elisabeta Sălăjan even if translated into Hungarian documents as Erzsébet Szilágyi is not the original name of this person. She is of Hungarian importance no doubt thats why I haven't moved the page to the original name but on reading the article there is no mention of Elisabeta Sălăjan, only the translated version which needs fixing. I suggest either my initial edit of Elisabeta Sălăjan (Hungarian: Szilágyi Erzsébet or at least Szilágyi Erzsébet (Romanian: Elisabeta Sălăjan Maok3 (talk) 00:25, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

(1) Please try to avoid original research and read the relevant article again, especially its text under the subtitle "Etymology". I suggest you should not refer to books written by amateur etymologysts, who do not know that neither the Szilágy (ending with d̠ʲ〉 nor the Sălaj (ending with ʒ) form could derive from a "Silvania" form. (2) Nobody translated her name from Romanian to Hungarian, because her name was Hungarian. (3) Would you refer to the relevant policy of Wikipedia which requires that the Romanian (or Albanian, Swedish, Japanese, Ethiopian, ...) version of her name should be mentioned in the English version of Wikipedia? Borsoka (talk) 01:46, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

So the academic research in the field of onomatology done by a head of Cultural Patrimony county of Sălaj, is overdone by an wikipedia editor ? This is funny. What does Albanian, Swedish, Japanese .. have to do with a person who lived in an occupied Romanian territory, at that time by Hungarians? The majority population of that area was overwhelmingly romanian and the constant campaigns of colonizing the Transilvania territory only reached its height few hundred years later. Even denying the origin of Sălaj, she was married with John Hunyadi of Romanian origins which is translated to both Hungarian and Romanian. Maok3 (talk) 07:05, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, if the "academic" researcher ignores Püspökszilágy ("Bishop's Szilágy") in Pest County (where Romanians never lived) and Szilágy in Baranya County (where Romanians never lived either) when trying to push an obviously fringe theory. Fringe theories are usually ignored by our community. Would you refer to the relevant WP policy which requires that the Romanian version of her name should be presented? For instance, Nicolas Sarkozy is of Hungarian ancestry (his father was a Hungarian nobleman) - should we translate the name of his wife, Carla Bruni, into Hungarian and mention this translation (Barna Klára) in the article about her??? I think we should avoid such strange situations. Borsoka (talk) 12:44, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion about etimology is completely irrelevant. Maok3, please provide one source which refers to Erzsébet Szilágyi as Elisabeta Sălăjan. Even Romanians call her "Elisabeta Szilágyi" (or rarely Silaghi). I hope you will not translate the name of PM Péter Medgyessy, just because Medgyes is today part of Romania under the name Mediaș. Your argument is incomprehensibly absurd. --Norden1990 (talk) 13:45, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

I think the discussion has sidetracked a lot with the above jokes of translating the PM name and the above Carla Bruni hint, what do these 2 have in common with Romanian history? Nothing. Elisabeta Sălăjan though, was the wife of Iancu de Hunedoara but because she was only mentioned by relation to him and because Transilvania was under the ruling of Hungarians at the time there's no historic document in which her original name appears, the ad literam translation of her name in Romanian is Silaghi, as there is no á in Romanian but her original name would've been used at the time by Romanians as Elisabeta Sălăjan which is what the anthroponymy studies that you want to ignore proved with the Sălaj name. I really don't see the issue of mentioning her name in Romanian, either the literal translation Silaghi or the original name Sălăjan. She was the wife and mother of important figures in Transilvania and its history is universal and doesn't belongs to either Hungarians or Romanians. Mentioning her name in Romanian is the standard with all historic figures that are related to Romanian history on EN wiki but it seems here that standard is crossed over because of unknown reasons? Maok3 (talk) 18:48, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

When editing WP, only peer reviewed reliable sources can be cited. The source you cited above can hardly be qualified as a reliable source. Furthermore, as per WP:Due, marginal (or rather fringe) theories should not be mentioned in the article. Borsoka (talk) 04:01, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

That makes sense except the fact that I didn't quote a source above that relates to how occupied Vlachs/Romanians used to call her, before now. I only made a reference of how Hungarians when they arrived in that teritory they took the local names and gave Hungarians interpretation to most town/river/people names and because they were the conquerors they had the saying in what was written in the official documents. As for Vlachs/Romanians calling her Elisabeta Sălăjan on a simple google book search it can be found this excerpt: "spell Dozsa: Doja, Erzsébet Szilágyi as Elisabeta Salajan and refer to Csikszereda as Miercurea Ciuc even when speaking Hungarian" from Hungarian Studies Review, Volumes 16-19, formerly the Canadian-American Review of Hungarian Studies which was co-published by the Hungarian Studies Association of Canada and the National Szechenyi Library (Budapest, Hungary). How will you going to deny this one I wonder, published by Hungarian own national library and in which it mentions how the Romanians refer to Erzsébet Szilágyi, a person part of Romanian history as well due to being married to Iancu De Hunedoara and being mother of Matei Corvin.

As per WP:Due (there is only one single book published in Romanian which refers to her using this artificial name [1]). Interestingly, Hungarians did not translate Slavic place names, but adopted them - you should not refer to fringe theories in this debate. Borsoka (talk) 11:07, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

One reliable source is enough when dealing with history from 600-700 years ago, and when that source was published by a magazine released biannually dedicated to Hungarian History and supported by the National library. From the source its clear that Romanians referred to the person as Elisabeta Sălăjan. What exactly are you denying? That this person is not relevant to Romanian history? Please state clearly your issue with adding her name, like the standard of all people related to Romanian history on EN wiki. Maok3 (talk) 17:30, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

(1) Please read WP:Due; (2) no, you did not explain why any Romanian versions of her name should be mentioned. She was not a Romanian lady. The Slovak, Croatian, German, Ruthenian, Polish, Czech versions of her name are not mentioned either, although her husband was a ruler of Hungary, which was inhabited by Slovaks, Croatians, ... etc and her son was also ruler of parts of the Kingdom of Bohemia. Borsoka (talk) 23:47, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

(1) it doesn't apply here because I'm not presenting a theory, I'm presenting you the facts of how normally on EN wikipedia historical figures important to certain regions(see: Hungarians in Romania), always get their name mentioned in the original language as well but on this article it seems that is ignored. (2) Unlike Slovaks, Germans.. etc. Elisabeta Sălăjan(as mentioned in the Hungarian National library source) son(mentioned on the article Romanian: Matei Corvin) and husband(mentioned on the article Romanian: Ioan de Hunedoara) were of Romanian origins.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Maok3 (talk • contribs) 07:05, 26 July 2016

Would you refer to a reliable source stating that she was of Romanian origin? If she was not of Romanian origin, why do you think that an artificial Romanian version of her name (which is mentioned in a single Romanian book) should be mentioned? Borsoka (talk) 18:09, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Dear Borsoka, because we are not on Hungarian WIKIPEDIA. We are on ENGLISH wikipedia which is the international version and if a particular topic/person is relevant to a country it needs to be mentioned/translated in those countries names. Please try to judge this objectively, this is not Hungarian forum. Maok3 (talk) 22:31, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I must have missed something. Have you referred to a reliable source stating that she was of Romanian origin? Have you referred to the relevant WP policy prescribing that any Romanian version of a non-Romanian noblewoman should be mentioned in the English version of WP? Have you referred to the relevant WP policy prescribing that a marginal version (an artificial translation) of a non-Romanian noblewoman should be mentioned in the English version of WP? Borsoka (talk) 23:36, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for that, you made me look into the relevant sections of WP that handles this. According to WP:NAMINGCRITERIA and with more then 10 reliable sources on how this person was referred to as Elizabeth Szilagyi in English: Google Books english Elizabeth Szilagyi, not only the name needs to be changed but the entire article needs to be moved to a new one of Elizabeth Szilagyi page. Secondly, according to WP:OTHERNAMES for the historic names There is also no reason why alternative names cannot be used in article text. This article is in breach for at least 2 major policies of (1) not using her recognized English name (2) of alternative name not being used. As for her being of importance of Romanian, not only she was married with someone that was of Romanian origins and ruled over part of Romanian territory(as previously mentioned), but she was also born in Cluj-Napoca, a city of Romania. Maok3 (talk) 08:33, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

No, her place of birth is unknown, her son, Matthias was born in Kolozsvár. Anyway, I agree we can add the Romanian version of her name in the lead. However, you cannot provide yet that in Romanian historiography, she was referred to as "Elisabeta Sălăjan". You found only one source. Elisabeta Szilagyi looks like more common. --Norden1990 (talk) 12:19, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

my mistake, I think that source was referring to Matei Corvin place of birth. Anyway, as for her name, Szilagyi is not romanian because there's no such construct as sz or gy in romanian, those sources simply copied her Hungarian family name for ease of recognition. Her ad-litteram translation into Romanian would be Elisabeta Silaghi, but Romanian interpretation of her name and how she is referred to is Elisabeta Sălăjan. I'll ask around to see if anyone knows of more deep sources for this except the Hungarian National library one, as for valid references for wikipedia there are some: →"Printre casele puse în pericol se numără şi cea ridicată de Iancu de Hunedoara pentru soţia sa, Elisabeta Sălăjan, mama marelui rege al Ungariei, Boemiei şi Croaţiei Matia Corvin.", →"Hunedoara to his wife, Elizabeth Salajan. It is the oldest civil building in the city" Maok3 (talk) 15:10, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Her Romanian name is not a special case: she was not a Romanian lady. We do not mention the Hungarian version of Sárközy's wife either, because she is not a Hungarian lady even if her husband is partially of Hungarian origin. If we want to mention a Romanian version of Elizabeth Szilágyi's name, because some of her husband's and son's subjects were Romanians, we neither can ignore their Croatian, Slovakian, German, etc. subjects. Do we want to list 6-7 foreign versions of her name? Borsoka (talk) 17:24, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Do we want? The WP:OTHERNAMES policy states clearly There is also no reason why alternative names cannot be used in article text, and I doubt any of those nations that you list even consider or even know of this person to consider it important enough to talk about her in their native languages. On the other hand, her house is build on Romanian soil, she is considered of enough importance and people know who she is. The WP:NAMINGCRITERIA policy would also need this article moved to the English version of her name: Google Books english Elizabeth Szilagyi. Please stop sidetracking with Sárközy wife, he has nothing directly to do with Hungary. Maok3 (talk) 19:56, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I still do not understand your above remark. Her husband domains were scattered in the whole territory of the medieval Kingdom of Hungary, including territories where Slovaks, Germans, Croatians, etc lived. Why do you think that her Romanian name is a special case? If you want to change the name of the article, please start the due process under a separate subtitle on this Talk page. Borsoka (talk) 01:18, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Exactly, its not a special case, you're the one making a big deal out of this and per the WP:OTHERNAMES policy additional names can be included and as I proved with 3 sources now, in Romanian she was referred to as Elisabeta Sălăjan so I see no reason to not include that. You should be proud of her for being mentioned in as many languages as possible, not bring her down, I truly don't understand your position on this from the beginning. I made a mistake at first because I didn't thought there were enough references to her in english and her Hungarian name was already mentioned. I can move the page myself to the english version, there's no reason to start a process, unless you intend of disagreeing on that too? Maok3 (talk) 09:08, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

No, you have not proved that Elisabeta Sălăjan is the most frequent Romanian version of her name. You have proved that (1) the author of a marignal/fringe theory claims that she should be named as Sălăjan; that (2) an ethnic Hungarian referred to her as Sălăjan when speaking in Hungarian. You still have not clarified why we should mention 6-7 non-English and non-Hungarian versions of the name of an ethnic Hungarian noblewoman in English WP. I suggest that you should start a discussion about the moving of the article because an unilateral movement can create an edit warring, because the article was moved some time ago. Borsoka (talk) 10:15, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

You haven't paid much attention to the discussion, look above where you've been checked at every point and below to the references. This article is in breach of 2 policies and if you think its fine, then go ahead and continue the '???' and 'no no no' posts which are rather silly. Maok3 (talk) 16:32, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I looked above and looked below, and I did not find anything. You have not proved that Elisabeta Sălăjan is the most frequent Romanian version of her name, you have not referred to a single policy requiring that 6-7 non-English and non-Hungarian versions of an ethnic Hungarian noblewoman should be listed in the English version of WP, and you have not initiated a page movement. Sorry, I think there is no point in continuing this discussion. Borsoka (talk) 18:40, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

References

Third Opinion

A Third Opinion has been requested. It isn't clear what the question is. The Hungarian form of her name is given as the primary name, and she was Hungarian. It isn't clear what the question is about a Romanian version of her name, or an English version. If reliable sources refer to her by a Romanian name, it should be listed. I am leaving this question listed at 3O in case someone can answer it. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:35, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 13 October 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa (talk) 18:30, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

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Erzsébet Szilágyi → Elizabeth Szilágyi – WP:English. The version is used in publications in English like Britannica or The Catholic Encyclopedia. Swetoniusz (talk) 17:54, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

• Support, medieval person in Hungary. --Norden1990 (talk) 19:00, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.