Talk:Erich Hartmann

Alleged war crimes?

I'm curious. The infobox currently qualifies the "war crimes" section as "alleged" with a criminal status of "pardoned". But the main narrative makes no mention of any pardon, only his conviction, so the pardon is currently not sourced. If he was indeed pardoned, a pardon does not, I believe, overturn the original conviction, so "alleged" cannot be an appropriate qualification. If his original conviction was declared unlawful by the Russians in 1997, as this edit summary asserts, then "alleged" would be appropriate, and possibly even grounds for excluding any mention of "war crimes" in the infobox, but that assertion is not reflected anywhere in the article. Interested to know the facts. Factotem (talk) 22:04, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Now reads "Fabricated war crimes", based on a statement in the lead. I notice that this was previously mentioned in the main body, but removed with this edit with a reason of unreliable sourcing. I've now tagged the "fabricated" and "pardoned" claims with cite needed lead. Factotem (talk) 09:31, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

@MisterBee1966: As best I can tell, the source for this edit, in which it is asserted that "In January 1997, more than three years after his death, Hartmann was rehabilitated by the Chief Military Prosecutor of the Russian Federation and relieved of all charges against him. The government agency stated that Hartmann had been wrongly convicted", says only that an examination of the criminal cases showed that Hartmann was convicted without cause ("Die Prüfung beider Strafsachen hat ergeben, daß E. Hartmann und andere zusammen mit ihm zum zweiten Mal verurteilte Kriegsgefangene ohne Grund verurteilt wurden. p. 78). That the examination was conducted by a Russian govt. agency seems to be documented on p. 55, though my German is not good enough to wade through the whole section to be sure of that. More importantly, the source only supports the assertion that Hartmann was wrongly convicted. I can't see anywhere any support for the assertion that he was exonerated in January 1997. A search for "januar" in the section in which the cited pages appear gives 5 hits, none of which relate to 1997. Are you able to tie down the source to support the first sentence of that edit? Also, the distinction between being pardoned and being relieved of all charges is important. The former means he was guilty of war crimes, the latter that he was wrongfully convicted of war crimes. Factotem (talk) 13:43, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

• I don't believe that Hartmann was rehabilitated, as only a court can do that. Wagenlehner is a collection of documents pertaining to the efforts to vacate convictions of German POWs, but it does not appear that it happened, at least in re Hartmann. I think it would be fair to say: "in the opinion of the Chief Military Prosecutor of the Russian Federation published in 1999 (?), Hartmann had been wrongly convicted.{{sfn|Wagenlehner|1999|p=78}}" Also, given that opinion, I support removing section "War crimes" from the infobox. K.e.coffman (talk) 17:39, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
• I am open minded as to how to present the information in the infox. Hartmann was tried twice, twice he was convicted, therefore I believe it should be reflected in the infobox. I can send the full scan from the Wagenlehner book to anyone interested via email. MisterBee1966 (talk) 18:44, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Regardless of whether Hartmann was later exonerated, and it doesn't look like there are sources to support that, I think if you have a section titled "War crimes" in the infobox, even if it's qualified with "Alleged" or "Fabricated", it tends to suggest that he committed war crimes. The infobox isn't at all good at accommodating nuanced situations like this, and I think the best solution is to remove that section completely. Let the issue be covered properly in the main body, the lead text even, but not the infobox. Factotem (talk) 19:54, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Fair point, I will remove it. Your assumption about sources not supporting him being exonerated is false. As said, I gladly scan and send you the full text. MisterBee1966 (talk) 20:01, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, but the source is available online. If there are other pages that explicitly state he was exonerated then please do add them, but I checked the page you provided in the ref, and it doesn't support the statement. I'm not fluent in German, but I'm not a beginner either, and Google Translate can fill the gaps. Factotem (talk) 20:08, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

I added a online reference which states "Hauptmilitärstaatsanwaltschaft in Moskau hat Hartmann inzwischen voll rehabilitiert und die Verurteilungen als grundlos bezeichnet." which translates to "The main military prosecutor's office in Moscow has meanwhile fully rehabilitated Hartmann and called the convictions groundless." I assume de:LEO-BW to be a reliable source in context of Wikipedia. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 20:28, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Not too jazzed with leo-bw as a high quality source for military history, but it seems to be supported by some respectable institutions in Baden-Württemberg, so fair enough. There's also an article in the Frankfurter Allgemeine newspaper. It's paywalled, but it shows just enough to confirm that the military prosecutor's office cleared Hartmann. Factotem (talk) 20:52, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

You may also want to search for "Leonid Kopalin" who headed the rehabilitation agency in the military prosecutor's office in Moscow. MisterBee1966 (talk) 21:08, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

I read the date wrong. Your articles are still poorly written--and cause confusion like that for that very reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.122.63.135 (talk • contribs) 05:01, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Erm

"In an attempt to pressure him into service with the Soviet-friendly East German National People's Army, he was tried on war crimes charges and convicted."

"National People's Army Founded 1 March 1956"

Wat - 01:35, 1 August 2021‎ 46.150.175.21

In occupied Germany, the Western zones founded the Federal Republic of Germany in May 1949, and the Soviet Zone was made the German Democratic Republic in October 1949. They were not sovereign, and had no official army or airforce yet. The commies made concealed preparations, see History of the Volkspolizei. --193.159.103.128 (talk) 11:57, 29 August 2021 (UTC)