Talk:Epoxy/Archive 2017

Epoxies

Surely "epoxies" means the plural of epoxy and not a band? In ictu oculi (talk) 22:08, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Clayton May Epoxy Resins: Chemistry and Technology Second Edition, 0824776909 p.784 1987 "Epoxies are the resins most commonly employed for electrical and electronic applications. Selection of epoxies is based on their superior adhesion, permeability, purity, and corrosion- and stress-resistance properties." In ictu oculi (talk) 07:52, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Not a Forum... and article is deeply flawed

Scanning through most of the comments here, I find them well below the threshhold of competence and knowledge that should be expected from contributors. Please do NOT add to this page if you can not substantively contribute, and most can not. If there is a topic which you feel is missing or incomplete, then by all means, but this is not a epoxy technical data page nor a political forum. If your question is about a specific product you bought, consult the manufacturer. If you do not understand that almost all of the answers to questions on the properties of epoxies will depend on the formulation and can not be answered here, then you shouldn't be posting here at all, IMHO. . This article is fundamentally wrong. First of all, epoxy based polymers are mostly adhesives, but are also used for other purposes such as coatings, composite (resins) and sealants (many more examples are possible). Second: epoxies can react with themselves or with anhydrides, acids, amines, amides, and mercaptans to name the most common co-reactants. It is absolutely WRONG to claim that epoxy adhesives are epoxy + amine. All of the above mentioned co-reactants are COMMONLY used. If I get a chance I will begin to make this more general and accurate.71.31.152.220 (talk) 19:52, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

(( get over yourself )) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.91.39 (talk) 23:30, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Need to split epoxy entry?

There seems to be a great deal of confusion between the usage of the term epoxy as a chemical class (covered by the Epoxide page), the use of epoxy industrially, which represents the vast majority of epoxy application and the term applied colloquially to home products such as DIY adhesives or repair products. Would it make sense to keep this page for Epoxy: industrial usage and create a new page for Epoxy: home repair products? That might prevent some of the confusion as well as the erroneous and often inaccurate contributions from home DIY users.Thatmajor (talk) 15:14, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Good points. Let me add a few. Wikipedia guidelines explain that it is primarily interested in everyday people, and discourages "too technicalness" and jargon (always bad writing outside of specialized media). The authors here often seem more interested in buffing their desire to be published, and to impress their technical/industrial peers than contributing to the Wikipedia mission. IOW, wikipedia is more interested in home usage than the fact that "the use of epoxy industrially, ...represents the vast majority of epoxy application."

I also find it jarring that other people here are also using; "the term applied colloquially to home products," as if "common" usage is somehow not quite as proper as they are. But dictionaries say:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/epoxy
epoxy (also epoxy resin)
NOUN Any of a class of adhesives, plastics, or other materials that are polymers of epoxides.
‘When the guards tore down her posters, she put them back up with epoxy.’
‘The veneer is a concoction of tropical Fijian light and dark woods and, of course, is strengthened with a proper dose of epoxy.’
VERB [WITH OBJECT] Glue (something) using epoxy resin.
‘the wire is epoxied to the top of the nut’

I'm thinking that the problem authors will somehow see those definitions as "lesser" than the their own, and will continue to revert all home usage perspectives. If so, then true, these are indeed two separate topics needing two separate articles. (also see my below comment)
--2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:B82E:5D68:303B:A66B (talk) 20:51, 17 November 2017 (UTC)Doug Bashford

Very technical...

Is there any chance that the article can just explain simply what an epoxy (resin) is and its applications in a straightforward way that someone without an engineering or chemistry degree can understand? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thoughtcat (talk • contribs) 15:16, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

I attempted to do that three years ago, 18 April 2014, in the intro section and it was deleted, seemingly because it contained an error. See also my comment above about splitting EPOXY into two entries. This article does not meet Wikipedia standards, for a number of reasons, this is one.

As I wrote in 2014:

Anyway, I added a consumer-user adhesives properties paragraph to the lead section. However, not being an expert, it's more of a heads-up than a detailed, usable chart/table.  Needs work. See also: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lead section) This belongs in the Lead, it's currently too technical, jargony...As if written by/for chemists and industry reps. 

I'm currently not in mood for entering pissing contests with Proud Little Napoleons on their sanctimonious high horses. ——...Not about glue, anyway.
--2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:B82E:5D68:303B:A66B (talk) 21:21, 17 November 2017 (UTC)Doug Bashford

A Secret? ...Most Epoxies are not Waterproof?

Most people assume epoxy adhesive is waterproof. This caused an underwater filter assembly I once built to blow up after several days.

I guess the truth must be an industry secret, since it's not mentioned here, and a google finds vague and imprecise language. Years ago I remember a major adhesive label had an epoxy properties chart on the back of the blisterpack to aid in purchasing selection. Perhaps 8 or 12 of their epoxies were listed, and only a few were recommended for permanent submersion and use below the water line. None were quick setting. Yet even in our "marine" section, no mention is made of this here.

Perhaps advances in technology have repaired this problem? No, one maker I found used the now endangered precise language of yesteryear in their user friendly FAQ:
    Is Gorilla Epoxy waterproof?
"Gorilla Epoxy is water resistant, which means it will resist moderate exposure to water but should not be fully submerged. However,...." end quote

Here are some further, hard-found notes:

• Epoxies
  
• QUIK-CURE™ 5 min. -- QUIK-CURE™ shouldn’t be used in areas that are subject to long-term immersion in water; however, it works fine for the internal structure of wood framed boats.
  
• MID-CURE™ 15 min. -- It is more water resistant
  
• SLOW-CURE™ 30 min. -- the highest strength of our epoxies. ... it is waterproof and more heat resistant. SLOW-CURE™ can be used for bonding if you’re willing to wait overnight.
  

Titebond 16-oz Wood Glue Adhesive
is proven waterproof - Passes ANSI/HPVA Type I water-resistance

• Performance Epoxy Adhesive
  
• maximum holding power and water resistance.
  
• widely used by the boating industry, 16 hour cure time
  

It seems there is no standard for water resistant Vs. waterproof. Anyway, I added a consumer-user adhesives properties paragraph to the lead section. However, not being an expert, it's more of a heads-up than a detailed, usable chart/table. Needs work. See also: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lead section) This belongs in the Lead, it's currently too technical, jargony...As if written by/for chemists and industry reps.
--71.137.156.36 (talk) 21:00, 18 April 2014 (UTC)Doug Bashford

Sorry, but it absolutely isn't true to say that most epoxies are not waterproof, although it may be true to say that some home DIY epoxy adhesives are not very water resistant. Besides the lack of definition of the term waterproof, I think we should avoid the confusion between home glue products (an almost negligible percentage of epoxy usage) and the thousands of tons used industrially. Epoxies are extremely resistant to water, which is why they are used the world over as one of the primary marine corrosion coatings. They are certified for deep sea oil applications, offshore wind applications, marine craft fabrication, food can linings and water pipe re-lining, not to mention full aerospace approval for planes. Each industry using epoxy typically has extensive testing programs and certification which specifies properties such as mechanical performance and water absorption after submersion or water boiling tests. There are epoxy composite boats which have been in the water for 40 plus years without any problem..Thatmajor (talk) 14:50, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

No doubt that's true. I think that you are not following Wikipedia guidelines to think that somehow the arcane industrial usage of epoxy and it's "thousands of tons used industrially" outweighs the importance (to Wikipedia) of the "almost negligible percentage" used by the Wikipedia target reader. To write an article about epoxy strictly from the industrial and chemist's viewpoint and to ignore the target audience is in blatant violation of guidelines, as well as being just plain poor writing style.

You write:

Each industry using epoxy typically has extensive testing programs and certification which specifies properties such as mechanical performance and water absorption after submersion or water boiling tests. 

Yes, and so on...properties list. And we here at Wikipedia should be able to pull some of that secret info out of the black pigeon holes where industry hides such valuable proprietary information, and present some of it to serious users not backed by industrial teams or who don't have dedicated purchasing agents or researchers. Jeepers, that sounds like actual hard work.
--2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:B82E:5D68:303B:A66B (talk) 23:21, 17 November 2017 (UTC)Doug Bashford

Sorry to see you learned the hard way that 5-minute epoxy isn't really very good at anything. Most epoxy is slow-cure. The "natural state" of most room temperature epoxies is to take an hour or more to set. If it's going to set in five minutes, the product should more rightly be considered "heavily modified epoxy" than "epoxy". And furthermore, a shorter set time will allow for less thorough mating with the substrate surfaces. Piojo (talk) 15:49, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Good info! I'm glad to see my experience and suspicions are verified by broad chemistry. I hope somebody can work 5-min epoxy "isn't really very good at anything," (and other "glue product" shortcomings?) into suitable language for the article. My attempt was deleted.

I'm kinda perturbed that some authors here seeming believe that there are two epoxy (and polymers in general) markets: 1) "the thousands of tons used industrially," and 2) inconsequential DIY idiots, undoubtedly in need of a bath. A bifurcated world of schooled specialists and squirming meat. That attitude leave professional repairmen, including doctors etc, unable to quickly find useful info. —Bifurcated pidgonholed worldview: —confirmed.—
--2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:B82E:5D68:303B:A66B (talk) 22:39, 17 November 2017 (UTC)Doug Bashford