Talk:Epic of Sundiata

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Untitled

I added details to the plot based off of the Feremu version of the epic. Since there are different versions, I felt it was important to add a few mentions of details that happened in other versions. Overall, this article could use more references to other versions and more plot details. Svclarke (talk) 01:39, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 19 February 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline (talk) 13:24, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Epic of Sundiata → Sunjata epic – scholars and modern publications typically refer to it as Sunjata or the Sunjata epic. see: https://books.google.com/books?id=HS9iDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA407#v=onepage&q&f=false MichelCastagne (talk) 01:30, 19 February 2022 (UTC) MichelCastagne (talk) 01:30, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Sundiata is the common name spelling in English. Walrasiad (talk) 14:01, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's a popular spelling because of the popularity of Pickett's translation of Niane's 1960 text, but shouldn't Wikipedia have a different standard? MichelCastagne (talk) 17:36, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We do. It's called WP:COMMONNAME. Walrasiad (talk) 19:04, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WP:COMMONNAME states: the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred. On Google Scholar, "Sunjata epic" turns up 697 results and "Sundiata epic" turns up 202 results. "Epic of Sunjata" turns up 250 results and "Epic of Sundiata" turns up 256. "Sundiata Keita" turns up 1320 results, many of which are references to other people by the name, and the results that are about the hero are often Wikipedia mirrors and the like. By contrast, "Sunjata Keita" turns up 452 results, the majority of which appear to be about the hero. "Sundiata" in isolation turns up many results unrelated to the epic (e.g. various scholars named Sundiata), whereas "Sunjata" turns up mostly results for the epic. On a more anecdotal level, the majority of English-language reliable sources I have read on the topic have used the spelling Sunjata. In summary, "Sunjata" appears to be a more common name for the hero in reliable sources, particularly those that are specifically written by experts on West African oral tradition, and WP:COMMONNAME would favor the spelling Sunjata over Sundiata. Ornithopsis (talk) 22:25, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia's audience is not scholars or specialists, it is the general public. "Sundiata" is one of the most well-known African names, precisely because of the hero and epic. The recognizability of "Sundiata" is very high, that of "Sunjata" is low and would be surprising to most readers. "Common name" standard is not in specialized literature written by experts for other experts, or the latest narrow academic tract, but how it is referred to in wider works of general reference. And "Sundiata" easily dominates, e.g. Britannica, National Geographic, World History Encyclopedia, UNESCO General History of Africa, Africana Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia of African History, Encyclopedia of African-American History, African Kingdoms Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia of Black Studies, Encyclopedia of Literature of Empire etc. Walrasiad (talk) 01:21, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's not like "Sunjata" is abstruse jargon only comprehensible to specialists, it's a different spelling of the same name, and I would trust the experts on West African oral tradition to be more familiar with the preferable way to transcribe the name into the Latin alphabet than the author of a more general-purpose encyclopedia. There are certainly also non-scholarly books that use the spelling Sunjata (e.g. Empires of Medieval West Africa and this graphic novel). Names have spelling variants, so the popularity of the name Sundiata for people in general does not necessarily prove that Sundiata is the preferable spelling for this figure in particular. That's all I have to say on the matter, though; if others generally agree that Sundiata is the WP:COMMONNAME, I will not object further, because both names are clearly in common use. Ornithopsis (talk) 05:16, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts, Ornithopsis. MichelCastagne (talk) 16:09, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The primary topic for "Sunjata" is surely the lead figure of the epic (currently at Sundiata Keita), not the epic per se. I support changing the spelling from Sundiata to Sunjata, as the latter spelling seems more widespread in reliable English-language sources. As such, I would support changing the title of this page to "Sunjata epic". On a tangentially related note, I have some concerns about the use of the name Keita; here on Wikipedia, we seem to be treating it as the surname of the mansas of Mali, but it doesn't seem to be used that way in reliable sources often. I brought this up at Talk:Mansa Musa the other day. On Google Scholar, "Sundiata Keita" turns up results that mostly seem to come from either Wikipedia mirrors or be about a professor by the name of Sundiata Keita Cha-Jua. "Sunjata Keita" turns up more sources about Sunjata himself, but my general impression is that he's often simply called Sunjata. Thoughts? Ornithopsis (talk) 18:28, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That makes a lot of sense. I agree with your approach, going with "Sunjata epic" for this one and changing the "Sundiata Keita" article about the person to "Sunjata". MichelCastagne (talk) 18:34, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.