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Archive 1

Work in progress

Sorabino (talk) 02:53, 4 July 2016 (UTC) I wrote that text in Eparchy of Raška and Prizren as you can see from the history of that page and now I am using it to create much more detailed information for the page Eparchy of Lipljan. It will take me few days to finish the job. In any case, Eparchy of Lipljan existed for 8 centuries as an independent eparchy, so it should have its own page.Sorabino (talk) 02:53, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

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Dating of foundation and identity in the 9-10th century

In the articles and sections related to the eparchy and Christianization of the Serbs can be found an outdated and misleading viewpoint based on only one source (Vlasto, 1970). There's no evidence in the primary sources about the foundation of Eparchy of Ras, being founded by the Serbs during the time of Mutimir of Serbia (c. 850 – 891; DAI doesn't mention such an important event) or considered as Serbian bishopric. There's nothing verifiable and factual about it, all being an opinion piece construction by Vlasto and others who held such an opinion. It is hardly possible it was founded by the Serbs as Serbian bishopric in Stari Ras becuase in no primary source there's information to be a Serbian city, on the contrary isn't even listed among inhabited cities of baptized Serbia. Historians often consider it has been a Bulgarian city or on a very Bulgarian-Serbian border at best. One primary source says that the bishopric of Ras was as one of the Dioceses that belonged to the Bulgarian church during the emperor Peter I of Bulgaria. The newer research and archaeological findings also show that the city and its area was inhabited and controlled by the Bulgarians in the 9th and 10th century, being re-populated and renovated by the Bulgarians since the mid-9th century until when it was desolated since the early 7th century. It is factually impossible that the Serbs or anyone else founded their bishopric in Stari Ras when it was Bulgarian.

Spehar, Perica N. (2019). "Reocupation of the Late Antique Fortifications on the central Balkans during the Early Middle Ages". Fortifications, Defence Systems, Structures, and Features in the Past. Zagreb: Institute of Archaeology. pp. 118–120, 122.

Spehar in "By Their Fruit you will recognize them - Christianization of Serbia in Middle Ages" (2010) doesn't mention any information related to the Vlasto's construction.

Marko Aleksic in an interview (2020) on the question which was the oldest Serbian episcopic capital/centre explained that there's no clear answer, with the first being in Ston (928, possibly founded in the second half of the 9th century), while the Ras region is mentioned since the mid-9th century, but its episcopy is recorded only since the second half of the 10th century.

Tibor Živković in "On the baptism of the Serbs and Croats in the time of Basil I (867-886)" (2013) concluded that "However, even in Serbia and Dioclea, the Church of Constantinople did not establish any new ecclesiastical centre or ecclesiastical organization, since in notitiae of the Church of Constantinople Serbia never appears, while Dioclea appears only in Notitia 10 under Dyrrachion (dated at the very end of the 10th century)83. It is important to underline that appereance of the town of Ras in the DAI, already ca. 853/854, was not connected with the term kastra oikoumena. At that time Ras was just a boundary town, or fortress. Only in much posterior sources, from 1019, Ras appears as an important ecclesiastical centre - a bishopric84. Therefore, the Croat and Serb conversion related to Basil I and presented in the DAI and Vita Basilii, came as an outcome of fighting over ecclesiastical rights in the former praefectura Illyrici between Constantinople and Rome".

Predrag Komatina in "The Church in Serbia at the Time of Cyrilo-Methodian Mission in Moravia" (2015) also doesn't says anything alike Vlasto's construction, saying that "The fact that the Pope calls Mutimir to be placed under the pastoral care of the Pannonian Bishop leads to the conclusion that in the Mutimir's Serbia of the time there was no local bishop ... In the second charter of the Emperor Basil II (976-1025) to the Archbishopric of Ochrid in 1020, there was mentioned a Bishopric of Ras in Serbia as one of the Dioceses that belonged to the Bulgarian church during the time of Emperor Peter (927-969) ... Mutimir and the Bulgarian Prince Boris Michael were friendly at that time, so that political circumstances would not constitute an obstacle to such a step"

Dragan Vojvodic and Miodrag Markovic in monogaphy "Church of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul in Ras" (2021) mention various viewpoints, but often oppose more critical modern scholarship and new research conclusions, rather deciding to believe the construction about Mutimir and adding much more constructions upon constructions. The intention is obvious, defending and proving a preconceived idea how Stari Ras was Serbian, the church was created by a Serbian ruler, bishopric of Ras was Serbian and so on.

Evidently, there's no general consensus about the topic and is needed WP:NPOV editing using several modern sources. Miki Filigranski (talk) 01:11, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Ivana Komatina "Church and State in the Serbian Lands from the XIth to the XIIIth Century" (2016), a greatly reliable and informative source, in accordance with P. Komatina, Živković, Spehar which together should be primarily used for citation about the topic. Vlasto is very outdated, while Vojvodic-Markovic (paid by the Serbian Ministry) in comparison to others are not scientifically critical enough, should be cited with care, but do have some additional archaeological insights about the church. Accordingly, am going to make NPOV updated of the subject per academic sources in this and related articles.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 19:32, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

For evidence, Popović, Marko (1999). Tvrđava Ras [The Fortress of Ras] (in Serbian). Belgrade: Archaeological Institute. ISBN 9788680093147 - is another first class, critical and detailed source about this and related topic of Ras and the church.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 16:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE in the lead

@Griboski The content certainly has undue undue weight to stand in the lead. I did not know that it was not included in the history section, I thought it was already present there. Thanks for readding it, though. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:40, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

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