Talk:Entheogen/Archives/2024

Alcohol is not generally considered an entheogen?

I added alcohol (but it was actually already listed), then @Skyerise: removed it (actually removed much more than alcohol] 94.255.152.53 (talk) 18:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Skyerise: "Other well-known entheogens used by Mexican cultures include the alcoholic Aztec sacrament pulque" was added in March 2015‎ by @Rjwilmsi:. Back then the section was called Controversial entheogens. Should we restore that section? --94.255.152.53 (talk) 18:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The fact that some specific drinks that contain alcohol that also contain psychoactive substances does not make all alcohol entheogenic. In general, alcohol is not considered entheogenic and you have not provided any reliable sources that suggest otherwise. Skyerise (talk) 19:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Typically entheogens are substances which have historical evidence of being used to facilitate a transformative experience that is believed to involve a revealing of, or generation of the "Divine" within, and not simply a substance which is associated with ceremonial use, and this is why sacramental wine for example, is not typically considered to be an "entheogen" by definition. This is because the term "entheogen" was actually coined as a replacement for the word "psychedelic" when describing sacramental use of "hallucinogenic" substances. Thus, substances like coca leaves, while considered very sacred in the Andes, and referred to as "Mama Coca", are not typically considered to be entheogens. So I would say that one dividing line would be whether or not the substance is considered to be a hallucinogen (which would include substances such as psychedelics, dissociatives, and deliriants). Another dividing line would be whether or not this substance had traditional sacred/ceremonial use. Lastly, entheogens are typically plants, or preparations made from plants. Now, some exceptions for alcohol may be wines which have been mixed or made with herbs known to have hallucinogenic properties, in which case the alcohol serves more as a solvent than as the entheogenic substance itself. Thoric (talk) 22:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

This conversation confuses me. We've already got alcohol several places in the article. In one case, a very strong WP:RS explicitly states that alcohol is absolutely an entheogen: ...the Indo-Europeans encountered wine, the entheogen of Dionysus... The Indo-European proto-Greeks "recognized it as the entheogen of Zeus... [and preferred it because] ... the entheogen was now cultivable." Another section specifically links mead as an entheogen as well: Fermented honey, known in Northern Europe as mead, was an early entheogen. Trying to draw a distinction between the altered state produced through alcohol and those achieved through non-fermented substances is not supported by the sources. Unless someone can provide an equally strong RS that refutes Staples & Ruck by stating that alcohol is not an entheogen, I feel that the above statements are WP:OR and that anon-IP's edit should be restored. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 13:59, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Alcohol is of course a psychoactive drug, but the term entheogen was specifically chosen to describe visionary plants and substances with a historic and ritual use to induce visionary states. Have you read the paper you are referring to? Please see Entheogens in Ancient Times. I think you've misinterpreted the viewpoint. --Thoric (talk) 15:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

We have four statements in the body of the article that explicitly use the word, 'entheogen,' to refer to alcohol. You have advised here and previously in the archive that the opposite is true (and I sincerely honour your two-decade involvement improving the encyclopaedia), but I cannot find an RS that excludes alcohol from the definition. The sources that I can find always tend to avoid limiting entheogens to hallucinogenics, which makes it hard to exclude a near-universal psychoactive like alcohol from the list without a strong source. Regardless of the outcome, we need the body to be consistent throughout. I will happily do the rewording to remove references to alcohol, but I am loath to do so if I cannot defend the change with a clear source. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 17:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, did you read the provided paper? It is neither lengthy, nor technical in nature. The basic premise is while fermented beverages such as wine, beer, cider, and mead have existed for thousands of years, the practice was more often a means of preservation (of the fruits involved in its brewing), rather than for intoxication, and also for the purpose of making herbal decoctions. These were typically greatly diluted with water before drinking such that the actual alcoholic content was perhaps around 2 or 3 percent, and the primary psychoactive effects came from the herbs. In historic literature, when a wine or mead was described as "strong", it was due to the addition of potent herbs, and not a reference to the alcoholic content. Just because a historical entheogenic substance contains alcohol, and is referred to as a "wine" does not mean that the ethanol itself was the primary entheogenic constituent.

That said, this also does not mean that alcohol cannot be used entheogenically, nor does it mean that historic cultures (such as the Vikings) did not use alcoholic beverages in this manner, but it is generally agreed upon that we don't typically have detailed records of what special ingredients may have been slipped into the brew, because this was often done in secret, or a secret recipe. It should also be clear that some substances are far more likely to result in an entheogenic experience than others, and perhaps it is time to have a sort of rating scale to reflect that potentiality. One such option may be the Shulgin Rating Scale. Thoric (talk) 18:19, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Lede changes

Noticed some lede changes flipping back and forth, with recommendation to discuss here. Please note, I did not make the changes or revert them, but would like to be involved with the discussion...

It should be duly noted that the term psychedelic was chosen as a more specific replacement term for hallucinogen (somewhat excluding deliriants and dissociatives). It should also be noted that the term entheogen was chosen as an alternative to psychedelic for the following specific purposes:

• to avoid the (potentially negative) cultural associations with the word psychedelic
• to be specific to the spiritual and ceremonial use of psychoactive substances
• to include substances which are not inherently classified as psychedelic drugs

Thus, the term "entheogenic" is more weighted towards the intention, purpose, and method of use of a substance, than to its pharmacology. It is, however, typically limited to substances which have an established, historical ceremonial use, as well as those which tend to induce visionary state, especially one which could be classified as a state of Samadhi, Nirvana, or Moksha. Because of this, it is not correct to assume that all psychedelic drugs are entheogens, and it is also not correct to assume that all entheogens are psychedelic drugs. Most plant hallucinogens are considered to be entheogens, but certain psychoactive plants, such as Nicotiana rustica are also considered to be entheogens. Synthetic psychedelic drugs such as 2C-B are not typically considered to be entheogens. Thoric (talk) 20:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

That was my understanding and the reason that I reverted from the proposed definition specifically as 'hallucinogens'. Thank you for the clear explanation. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 11:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It seems like perhaps we should re-work the lede to make it more clear, but maybe we can do that in here (the talk page) before updating the live article. --Thoric (talk) 17:40, 15 May 2024 (UTC)